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The science behind DIM (or estrogen metabolism/androgen production)

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I don't understand why you say idiopathic hirsutism is a cause of hyperandrogenism. Idiopathic hirsutism is hirsutism with no identifiable cause. Someone with idiopathic hirsutism does not have hyperandrogenism.

Also, many people with acne do not have hyperandrogenism. They are just overly sensitive to normal levels of androgens. But anti-androgens can still often work in this case.


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Ok - this is a really long read, but worth it - please tell me what you think:

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_form...Dominance.cfm#2


It is like a reason that picks you up

And places you

Where you always wanted

To be.

*Moderator edit - Linking to websites other than Acne.org in your signature is not allowed*


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I don't think it's hyperandrogenism that is necessarily the problem, but too much free T because of decreased SHBG.

There are many studies that show both men and women with acne have higher levels of free T and lower levels of SHBG when compared to acne free control groups.

So basically, you can have normal serum levels of androgens, but with less SHBG you have more bioavailable androgens to bind with receptors on sebaceous glands and thats where the real problem starts.

Decreased SHBG is associated with the liver's conversion of excess blood glucose to triglycerides, which I think is why a low carb diet seems to work so well. (less carbs = less blood glucose)

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I just copied and pasted what I read... I didnt write it :).


"It takes 20 minutes to turn a live steer into a hamburger. One-third of cattle are blinking, looking around and mooing as their tails are cut off, their hooves removed, their hides pulled off and their bellies ripped open. It is happening all over North America. Veterinarians feel its out of control but the government says there is nothing they can do about it." --The Washington Post's "They Die Piece By Piece" (April 11, 2001)

There are 13 major slaughterhouses in the US. All 13 are "self-policed" for animal abuse. Each worker cuts the throat of about 309 cattle per hour. --Humane Society of America

It is legal in North America for male chicks to be thrown into grinders while alive for dog food companies.

"Poor animals! How jealously they guard their pathetic bodies... that which to us is merely an evening's meal, but to them is life itself." — T. Casey Brennan


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This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.

Estrogen balances with Progesterone.

Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.

2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad

Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.

These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.

The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone

This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

Im liking how this can help with PMS for my princess...if I could help her with this Ill be so happy.


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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Im liking how this can help with PMS for my princess...if I could help her with this Ill be so happy.

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This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.

Estrogen balances with Progesterone.

Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.

2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad

Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.

These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.

The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone

This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.


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I have a question. Forgive me if this has been asked.

What type of DIM is better, the BIO-DIM(which has 25% DIM and also Vit E) or the pure DIM.

An example of a bio-dim(also called dim complex) pill is the natures way DIM.

Anyways I know that vit E helps absorbtion of DIM so thats why im contomplating whether or not I should get the bio-dim or the pure stuff and take a vit e suppliment.

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Hi guys,

can someone explain why calcium d-glucarate is beneficial to us...Also is it something we should consider taking with DIM?

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Hi guys,

can someone explain why calcium d-glucarate is beneficial to us...Also is it something we should consider taking with DIM?

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Think ive worked somthing out.

I can see why using DIM, flax seed etc and progesterone can break people out.

Once you flush out xenoestrogens your basically increasing toxins in the body and if your liver cant expel used hormones fast enough you will get more acne. (this explains why im ill after using 5grams of flax seed lignans in the last week! and why im breaking out from using it)

This also explains why using Calcium D-gluconate and liver building/cleansing herbs and high fiber diets help as this flushes out used hormones faster!

This also links in candida into the equation as candida and leaky gut goes hand in hand. Leaky gut also can leak used hormones back into your system. Thus your increasing how much hormones are in the body simply because the bowels are not working well and leading to an increase in cancer, esp women as they go up and down each month with body estrogen and this explains why women get PMS.

I think anyone on DIM,Soya, flax, I3C should indefinatly take anything to increase liver detoxification. Including Calcium D-gluconate any liver building/cleansing herbs and anything to increase phase 2 of liver detoxifiation...and guess what some of these are...

TAURINE

GLUTAMINE

GLUTATHIONE

GLYCINE

TAURINE

CYSTEINE

SULPHUR PHYTOCHEMICALS (GARLIC,CABBAGE,BROCCOLI,ONIONS,LEAKS,CAULIFLOWERS,BRUSSEL SPROUTS)

N.A.C

METHIONINE

CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE

QUERCETIN

LIPOLIC ACID

Well this is all making sense. Thing is I knew about this before but I didnt undestand it how I do now.

If you dont have enough raw material in phase 2 detoxification of the liver then it cant deal with the excess hormones that DIM,flax,I3C dispalce creating xenoestrogens.


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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Think ive worked somthing out.

I can see why using DIM, flax seed etc and progesterone can break people out.

Once you flush out xenoestrogens your basically increasing toxins in the body and if your liver cant expel used hormones fast enough you will get more acne. (this explains why im ill after using 5grams of flax seed lignans in the last week! and why im breaking out from using it)

This also explains why using Calcium D-gluconate and liver building/cleansing herbs and high fiber diets help as this flushes out used hormones faster!

This also links in candida into the equation as candida and leaky gut goes hand in hand. Leaky gut also can leak used hormones back into your system. Thus your increasing how much hormones are in the body simply because the bowels are not working well and leading to an increase in cancer, esp women as they go up and down each month with body estrogen and this explains why women get PMS.

I think anyone on DIM,Soya, flax, I3C should indefinatly take anything to increase liver detoxification. Including Calcium D-gluconate any liver building/cleansing herbs and anything to increase phase 2 of liver detoxifiation...and guess what some of these are...

TAURINE

GLUTAMINE

GLUTATHIONE

GLYCINE

TAURINE

CYSTEINE

SULPHUR PHYTOCHEMICALS (GARLIC,CABBAGE,BROCCOLI,ONIONS,LEAKS,CAULIFLOWERS,BRUSSEL SPROUTS)

N.A.C

METHIONINE

CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE

QUERCETIN

LIPOLIC ACID

Well this is all making sense. Thing is I knew about this before but I didnt undestand it how I do now.

If you dont have enough raw material in phase 2 detoxification of the liver then it cant deal with the excess hormones that DIM,flax,I3C dispalce creating xenoestrogens.

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This is brilliant. Do you think with a little more research that you might be able to translate it into a program (i.e. 30 days DIM, followed by 2 weeks CDG and monthly maintenance of???). Do you think there might be at least 2 different "types" that would get different treatment (i.e. androgen type and estrogen-imbalance type)?

My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

Status: Clear after 30 years. Wow, I guess it's been 6 years, now.

[ Story: Severe Acne since I was 10. 10+ years of Dermatologists, Antibiotics, topicals and ACCUTANE did nothing. Discovered oranges triggered the worst of my cystic acne = about 70% improvement. Tried some nutrient supplements like B-complex with zinc and C, saw palmetto and a BHA like the aspirin mask = more improvement, a lot less oily. Then, Diet changes = Clear.

Regimen: Anti-inflammatory, nutrient dense, blood sugar stabilizing diet and supplements (for hormones, inflammation, aging, health). No soap or other cleanser except for hand washing! Water only or Oil cleanse. Aloe Vera mixed with niacinimide and a high linoleic acid oil for moisturizer and reduce pigmentation.

Diet effects acne in so many ways: hormone balance, inflammation, Insulin levels, digestion, allergies and intolerances, liver function, adrenal function, SHBG levels, sebum quality, cell function and turnover, nutrient deficiencies, body fat, etc. Basic advice: Eat, sleep, supplement and exercise like you are a diabetic. And eat real food!

For more information, see my Good Things for Acne thread *Moderator edit - Please refer to the board rules (see “Advertising/soliciting”, “Linking” and “Signatures”)*

When you eat stuff, Stuff Happens!


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I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...


Regimen

No Soap/cleansers

Plenty of Epsom salt baths

Diet/supps:

-Whole body Healing from *moderator edit - url removed - please read the board rules* since 7/3/08=no more acne, sebderm, rosacea, sickness


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I have a question. Forgive me if this has been asked.

What type of DIM is better, the BIO-DIM(which has 25% DIM and also Vit E) or the pure DIM.

An example of a bio-dim(also called dim complex) pill is the natures way DIM.

Anyways I know that vit E helps absorbtion of DIM so thats why im contomplating whether or not I should get the bio-dim or the pure stuff and take a vit e suppliment.


You Just Have To Look Through The Dark

To See The Glimmers

[sig-img:412]

My Holistic Progress

6 Liver flushes performed so far in 2009


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Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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This is confusing now, I never knew Estrogen was what it is.

So Basically im seeing this as we have Testosterone and Estrogen.

Estrogen balances with Progesterone.

Estrogen dominance is where Estrogen is higher then Progesterone.

2-(OH)-estrone is good while 16-alpha–(OH)-estrone are considered bad

Flax lignans, DIM, I3C, Isoflavone (aka Phyto-estrogens) work as they are weaker Estrogens.

These weaker Estrogens take up all the space at receptor sites, making the bodies Estrogen void.

The weaker effects of Phytoestrogens means less of a load of Estrogen in the body meaning better ratio of progesterone

This all leading to a less of a burden of hormones on the liver...meaning hormonal acne can be controlled.

I think your just chosing the lesser of one evil while using DIM, Flax lignans etc which is a good thing but maybe a much better way would be using Progesterone. Or simply improve the function of the liver with herbs, supplements like Calcium-d-glucarate and Methionine.

No, DIM and I3C do not contain phytoestrogens. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but they detoxify your body of "bad" estrogens. They don't actually contain any hormones themselves.

Phytoestrogens break me out terribly, and I have seen several other people say the same thing. But DIM is working for several people so far.


My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.

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jodiat, if the DIM works due to p-450 & liver-related mechanisms, do you think progesterone cream can work as well?

I don't believe so.

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Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.

Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...

My only wish to breed I explode into a million seeds...

I found my fiancee on the org.

A Star that I will always serve, protect and love. I found her in the darkness and together we made light from our shadows.


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Have you guys read this wikipedia article on DIM where it talks about its ability to attack antibiotic resistant bacteria? Maybe that has something to do with its effectiveness against acne?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3%2C3%27-Diindolylmethane

Forgive me if this has already been brought up.


read the board rules regarding outside links in your signature.


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I don't think it's hyperandrogenism that is necessarily the problem, but too much free T because of decreased SHBG.

There are many studies that show both men and women with acne have higher levels of free T and lower levels of SHBG when compared to acne free control groups.

So basically, you can have normal serum levels of androgens, but with less SHBG you have more bioavailable androgens to bind with receptors on sebaceous glands and thats where the real problem starts.

Decreased SHBG is associated with the liver's conversion of excess blood glucose to triglycerides, which I think is why a low carb diet seems to work so well. (less carbs = less blood glucose)


Status: Clear after 30 years. Wow, I guess it's been 6 years, now.

[ Story: Severe Acne since I was 10. 10+ years of Dermatologists, Antibiotics, topicals and ACCUTANE did nothing. Discovered oranges triggered the worst of my cystic acne = about 70% improvement. Tried some nutrient supplements like B-complex with zinc and C, saw palmetto and a BHA like the aspirin mask = more improvement, a lot less oily. Then, Diet changes = Clear.

Regimen: Anti-inflammatory, nutrient dense, blood sugar stabilizing diet and supplements (for hormones, inflammation, aging, health). No soap or other cleanser except for hand washing! Water only or Oil cleanse. Aloe Vera mixed with niacinimide and a high linoleic acid oil for moisturizer and reduce pigmentation.

Diet effects acne in so many ways: hormone balance, inflammation, Insulin levels, digestion, allergies and intolerances, liver function, adrenal function, SHBG levels, sebum quality, cell function and turnover, nutrient deficiencies, body fat, etc. Basic advice: Eat, sleep, supplement and exercise like you are a diabetic. And eat real food!

For more information, see my Good Things for Acne thread *Moderator edit - Please refer to the board rules (see “Advertising/soliciting”, “Linking” and “Signatures”)*

When you eat stuff, Stuff Happens!


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Hmm you see what im thinking is the liver is the key in all of hormonal imbalances.

It is. I posted some info on strengthening the liver from Dr. Lam's site on one of the other DIM threads. But it's the same things (Foods, supplements) we keep reading and discussing in all kinds of threads.

I think the thing to do is get real serious about eating plenty of all the sulfur, DIM and CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE containing foods: cruciferous veggies, spinach, apples, etc.

Im with you on this for sure. Anything to help phase 2 is going to be needed while using anything that alters Estrogen.

I'd say liver health and bowel movements are about equal in expelling these toxins. Even after they go through the liver, if their not expelled through the bowels, they'll come right back to the liver for another round or two...

This is massive as its because of this that acne is made worse and PMS and even cancer is such a problem.

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