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The science behind DIM (or estrogen metabolism/androgen production)

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#1 Dotty1

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 03:21 PM

Hey, the main DIM post is so crazy that its hard to talk with any other people who are interested in finding the science behind DIM and why it works.

This post is open to anyone anyone trying to figure out what hormones are causing our problems tongue.gif.

I'm researching androgens at the moment:

From what I've been reading, exess androgen productivity is broken down into several subgroups (for women):

If Symptoms arrive at puberty: PCOS, idiopathic hirsutism or 21-hydroxylase deficiency.
If Syptoms arrive after puberty: Suggests tumor.

When I searched for 21-hydroxylase deficiency, they said it was an inherited problem that affects the adrenal glands. The adrenal glands have several functions: Cortisol has numerous functions such as maintaining blood sugar levels, protecting the body from stress, and suppressing inflammation. When the adrenal glands are not functioning correctly, they secrete excess androgens.

21-Hydroxylase deficiency takes two forms: It can either grossly change a person's genetalia in the womb (the classic form), or they can have 100% perfect genetalia, but their androgen levels can be VERY high (Causing acne, oily skin or cysts on the face or ovaries) (referred to as the "Non-classic form").

They estimate that 1 in 100 people suffer from the 21-Hydroxylase Deficiency in its Non-Classic fom. (Its a recessive gene - both parents must carry it although they may not have the symptoms).


I'm going to try to find how to fix the 21-hydroxylase deficiency.

#2 sie

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 03:44 PM

Dotty,

I'm confused. 21-Hydroxylase deficiency is a congenital disorder (even the non classic is congenital, I believe) that is medically treated using antiandrogens (I suppose it could be treated w/natural antiandrogens too). But I think most DIM users believe they have an acquired estrogen dominance due to pollutants and other factors. How are you linking these and where does DIM come in?



#3 jodiat

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 03:48 PM

http://www.canarys-e.../estrogens.html

http://www.canarys-e...trogen-mod.html

http://www.canarys-e...ents/caldg.html

Have you read these? Might be helpful. Im using Flax seed lignans and others here ahev used this and its worked well for them. Mainly tho it seems the effects of DIM and Flax lignans are similar in their outcome? So im interested in what you find.

#4 Dotty1

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 03:51 PM

I think there is a certain percentage of people using DIM who have excess androgen problems and a certain percent who have estrogen problems.

80% of people's acne clears from Accutane use (which is an anti-androgen), but 20% of people who use Accutane say that Accutane was ineffective on their acne (could this be the people with estrogen problems?). On Wikipedia (and many medical studies), scientists have found that the majority of acne sufferers have excess androgens.

DIM cures both problems: It balances estrogen AND it is the strongest anti-androgen naturally available, rivaling (if not beating) accutane.

Birth controls which were synthesized to control acne problems are chemicals which suppress androgens. However, there is always a small percentage of people who do not benefit from it (those with estrogen problems?).

The "Vitamin B5" cure was also an anti-androgen (but did not balance estrogen).

I am thinking that the acne trail breaks off into two roads now: Estrogen/progesterone problems... and androgen problems.

#5 bran88

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 04:01 PM

hmm but I've read both that DIM inhibits DHT (good!) and promotes free testosterone (bad?) can anyone sort this out? Thanks!

#6 jodiat

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 04:07 PM

Duno but I think DHT is bad as its 5 times more powerful then testosterone. Its also one reason of male pattern balding having excess DHT and ..acne.

Flax seed lignans and DIM seem to reduce this DHT and balances Estrogens.

#7 valo_123

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 04:09 PM

QUOTE (Dotty1 @ Mar 1 2008, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think there is a certain percentage of people using DIM who have excess androgen problems and a certain percent who have estrogen problems.

80% of people's acne clears from Accutane use (which is an anti-androgen), but 20% of people who use Accutane say that Accutane was ineffective on their acne (could this be the people with estrogen problems?). On Wikipedia (and many medical studies), scientists have found that the majority of acne sufferers have excess androgens.

DIM cures both problems: It balances estrogen AND it is the strongest anti-androgen naturally available, rivaling (if not beating) accutane.

Birth controls which were synthesized to control acne problems are chemicals which suppress androgens. However, there is always a small percentage of people who do not benefit from it (those with estrogen problems?).

The "Vitamin B5" cure was also an anti-androgen (but did not balance estrogen).

I am thinking that the acne trail breaks off into two roads now: Estrogen/progesterone problems... and androgen problems.


Are you saying the mass amounts of vitamin A in tane had an anti androgen effect?

#8 dancedd

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 04:09 PM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 1 2008, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Duno but I think DHT is bad as its 5 times more powerful then testosterone. Its also one reason of male pattern balding having excess DHT and ..acne.

Flax seed lignans and DIM seem to reduce this DHT and balances Estrogens.



I thought saw palmetto and omega 3's do this too?

#9 jodiat

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 04:14 PM

QUOTE (dancedd @ Mar 1 2008, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 1 2008, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Duno but I think DHT is bad as its 5 times more powerful then testosterone. Its also one reason of male pattern balding having excess DHT and ..acne.

Flax seed lignans and DIM seem to reduce this DHT and balances Estrogens.



I thought saw palmetto and omega 3's do this too?


Yep Sawpalmetto inhibits DHT. Omega 3 im not sure on I do know that Omega 3 producess prostoglandinds* which helps almost everything in the body.

Whats interesting is NdnRomeo found Sawpalmetto to be very unhelpful, made his acne alot worse. He also brought Flax lignans to my attention (which is more powerful then SawPalmetto). Now it seems DIM is the new in thing.

#10 jodiat

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 04:19 PM

http://www.canarys-e...ents/caldg.html

This is interesting. Im thinking of adding this to my supplements. It could even lower PMS?
(for my Fiancee not for me, I dont have PMS lol)

#11 dancedd

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 04:21 PM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 1 2008, 02:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (dancedd @ Mar 1 2008, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 1 2008, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Duno but I think DHT is bad as its 5 times more powerful then testosterone. Its also one reason of male pattern balding having excess DHT and ..acne.

Flax seed lignans and DIM seem to reduce this DHT and balances Estrogens.



I thought saw palmetto and omega 3's do this too?


Yep Sawpalmetto inhibits DHT. Omega 3 im not sure on I do know that Omega 3 producess prostoglandinds* which helps almost everything in the body.

Whats interesting is NdnRomeo found Sawpalmetto to be very unhelpful, made his acne alot worse. He also brought Flax lignans to my attention (which is more powerful then SawPalmetto). Now it seems DIM is the new in thing.


yeah for me saw palmeto didn't really help my acne. it didn't make it worse. However, it made my hairline better:) Omega 3's helped my acne improve (not clear 100% though). Yeah seems like something new always comes up eventually. lol so many things.

#12 jodiat

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 04:24 PM

QUOTE (dancedd @ Mar 1 2008, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 1 2008, 02:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (dancedd @ Mar 1 2008, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 1 2008, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Duno but I think DHT is bad as its 5 times more powerful then testosterone. Its also one reason of male pattern balding having excess DHT and ..acne.

Flax seed lignans and DIM seem to reduce this DHT and balances Estrogens.



I thought saw palmetto and omega 3's do this too?


Yep Sawpalmetto inhibits DHT. Omega 3 im not sure on I do know that Omega 3 producess prostoglandinds* which helps almost everything in the body.

Whats interesting is NdnRomeo found Sawpalmetto to be very unhelpful, made his acne alot worse. He also brought Flax lignans to my attention (which is more powerful then SawPalmetto). Now it seems DIM is the new in thing.


yeah for me saw palmeto didn't really help my acne. it didn't make it worse. However, it made my hairline better:) Omega 3's helped my acne improve (not clear 100% though). Yeah seems like something new always comes up eventually. lol so many things.


Saw Palemto is a herb and last for 2-3 weeks in the body untill the body reaches homeostasis then its not effective like all herbs minus a few. Flax seed lignans are more powerful in its DHT blocking and as its a carb/fiber the effects last indeffinate.


#13 ryudoadema

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 04:42 PM

If you check out this study, youd see that 17-OHP and DHEA-S are the two hormones that were tested to have a strong correlation with acne in men out of several more tested including testosterone and androstenedione. From wik, 17-OHP interacts with the progesterone receptor and is derived from progesterone, so lowering estrogen would be good here. Note that large amounts of progesterone are in dairy milk. DHEA-S is the sulfated version of DHEA. It converts in the body to the estrogens estrone and estradiol. Again, estrogen elimination would help if in fact these two estrogens are a contributing factor. Also it says in the study that androgen excess is already a proven factor in women so this may go for them too.

OK, that's all.

#14 jodiat

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 04:47 PM

QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 1 2008, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you check out this study, youd see that 17-OHP and DHEA-S are the two hormones that were tested to have a strong correlation with acne in men out of several more tested including testosterone and androstenedione. From wik, 17-OHP interacts with the progesterone receptor and is derived from progesterone, so lowering estrogen would be good here. Note that large amounts of progesterone are in dairy milk. DHEA-S is the sulfated version of DHEA. It converts in the body to the estrogens estrone and estradiol. Again, estrogen elimination would help if in fact these two estrogens are a contributing factor. Also it says in the study that androgen excess is already a proven factor in women so this may go for them too.

OK, that's all.


Hmm interesting stuff read ryud.

http://www.anapsid.o...s/estrogen.html
I read this and it could also be helpful to read.



#15 jodiat

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 04:59 PM

http://www.noaw.com/...tab/E-Metab.htm

With breast cancer afflicting 1 out of every 8 women, and men accounting for 1 out of every 100 cases of breast cancer [ 0.2 percent of all malignancies in men](1), something has to be done to decrease our risk of developing this disease. If you are unaware that men get breast cancer, they do! My grandfather died of breast cancer.
That's right, we develop the disease!...and if we develop the disease then there has got to be a way to not develop the disease! Today we know that there are ways to at least decrease our risk of breast cancer.

Our environment is full of xenoestrogens that are affecting both sexes.
As women, we consume birth control pills and take hormone replacement unabated. The press and scientists keep telling us of one study that indicates hormones to blame for the rise in breast cancer and then the next news release doubts the validity of the published finding.

If we all have lived long enough, we know not to believe what we hear and believe only half of what we read. So what do we do to protect ourselves?
Some easy steps are to decrease the amounts of xenoestrogens we place in our bodies...that is minimize or eliminate pesticide use...eat organic as much as possible, especially dairy...minimize drugs that contain hormones and eat lots of cruciferous vegetables. We need to realize that even if we "do all the right things," we can still have trouble with our own bodily hormones because we may metabolize them along the wrong pathway....or we may have bacteria in our GI tract that will recycle the estrogens!! I'll explain more later.

Today, due to scientific investigations, we realize that there are FOODS that help us metabolize these xenoestrogens and normal estrogens.
The elder President Bush did nothing for the lowly broccoli except leave more for me!...because it seems that it is the sulfur bearing compounds in these cruciferous vegetables that up regulate a liver enzyme CYP1A2.

One study (2) found that 500mg [about 1 pound] of broccoli every 12 days improved the 2-OH-estrone (E1) to 16-alpha-E1 ratios and up regulated the liver enzyme CYP1A2.

Indol-3-Carbinol

Since our culture is into "fast-everything," scientists initially found that I3C [Indol-3-Carbinol] was the active ingredient in the cruciferous vegetables. It seems that I3C induced 2-hydroxylation of estrone and improved the 2/16-alpha-E1 ratio.
A recent scientific article (3) showed that I3C caused a complete regression of cervical CIN II-III dysplasia in 50% of the participants and definitely improved the 2/16 ratio in dosages ranging from 2-400mg/day. [I have been using this fact in my treatment of abnormal pap smears for a long time.]
This action of I3C seems to be due to the down regulation of CYPB1B, which metabolizes E1 to the carcinogen 4-OH-E1.

Diindolylmethane
Since the absorption of I3C is limited and causes GI upset at high doses [remember the gas you can get with cabbage!!!], the scientist have isolated the most active metabolite in I3C called DIM [Diindolylmethane].
DIM has been shown to induce a favorable 2/16-alpha-estrone ratio and induce apoptosis [cellular suicide] in breast cancer cells. (4&5)
Most common dosing is 60mg DIM twice a day for women and 90-120mg/day for men.

Phytoestrogens
Soy isoflavones and flax lignans have demonstrated the ability to decrease 17-beta-estradiol (E2) levels and increase 2-OH estrone levels.(6) They also have shown to improve 2/16 ratio and additionally to decrease levels of 4-OH-E1 and 4-OH-E2, which are potentially carcinogenic.(7)

Calcium D-glucarate
Calcium D-glucarate (CDG) aids the body in inhibiting beta-glucuronidase, an enzyme produced by gut flora that removes the glucuronidase portion off of carcinogens, tumor promoters or hormones. Once the beta-glucuronidase is removed, the carcinogens can then be reabsorbed back into our bodies instead of being dumped out of our gut when we have a bowel movement.
Calcium D-glucarate then indirectly supports the elimination system of potential tumor promoters by making sure they do not disengage from their transport system out of the body. This then eases the burden of the liver.(8)

Conclusion
So, life style adaptations along with ingestion of either I3C or DIM and CDG seems to make the most logical mode-of-action for the scientific data base we now possess.


#16 ryudoadema

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 05:09 PM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 1 2008, 06:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
http://www.noaw.com/...tab/E-Metab.htm

With breast cancer afflicting 1 out of every 8 women, and men accounting for 1 out of every 100 cases of breast cancer [ 0.2 percent of all malignancies in men](1), something has to be done to decrease our risk of developing this disease. If you are unaware that men get breast cancer, they do! My grandfather died of breast cancer.
That's right, we develop the disease!...and if we develop the disease then there has got to be a way to not develop the disease! Today we know that there are ways to at least decrease our risk of breast cancer.

Our environment is full of xenoestrogens that are affecting both sexes.
As women, we consume birth control pills and take hormone replacement unabated. The press and scientists keep telling us of one study that indicates hormones to blame for the rise in breast cancer and then the next news release doubts the validity of the published finding.

If we all have lived long enough, we know not to believe what we hear and believe only half of what we read. So what do we do to protect ourselves?
Some easy steps are to decrease the amounts of xenoestrogens we place in our bodies...that is minimize or eliminate pesticide use...eat organic as much as possible, especially dairy...minimize drugs that contain hormones and eat lots of cruciferous vegetables. We need to realize that even if we "do all the right things," we can still have trouble with our own bodily hormones because we may metabolize them along the wrong pathway....or we may have bacteria in our GI tract that will recycle the estrogens!! I'll explain more later.

Today, due to scientific investigations, we realize that there are FOODS that help us metabolize these xenoestrogens and normal estrogens.
The elder President Bush did nothing for the lowly broccoli except leave more for me!...because it seems that it is the sulfur bearing compounds in these cruciferous vegetables that up regulate a liver enzyme CYP1A2.

One study (2) found that 500mg [about 1 pound] of broccoli every 12 days improved the 2-OH-estrone (E1) to 16-alpha-E1 ratios and up regulated the liver enzyme CYP1A2.

Indol-3-Carbinol

Since our culture is into "fast-everything," scientists initially found that I3C [Indol-3-Carbinol] was the active ingredient in the cruciferous vegetables. It seems that I3C induced 2-hydroxylation of estrone and improved the 2/16-alpha-E1 ratio.
A recent scientific article (3) showed that I3C caused a complete regression of cervical CIN II-III dysplasia in 50% of the participants and definitely improved the 2/16 ratio in dosages ranging from 2-400mg/day. [I have been using this fact in my treatment of abnormal pap smears for a long time.]
This action of I3C seems to be due to the down regulation of CYPB1B, which metabolizes E1 to the carcinogen 4-OH-E1.

Diindolylmethane
Since the absorption of I3C is limited and causes GI upset at high doses [remember the gas you can get with cabbage!!!], the scientist have isolated the most active metabolite in I3C called DIM [Diindolylmethane].
DIM has been shown to induce a favorable 2/16-alpha-estrone ratio and induce apoptosis [cellular suicide] in breast cancer cells. (4&5)
Most common dosing is 60mg DIM twice a day for women and 90-120mg/day for men.

Phytoestrogens
Soy isoflavones and flax lignans have demonstrated the ability to decrease 17-beta-estradiol (E2) levels and increase 2-OH estrone levels.(6) They also have shown to improve 2/16 ratio and additionally to decrease levels of 4-OH-E1 and 4-OH-E2, which are potentially carcinogenic.(7)

Calcium D-glucarate
Calcium D-glucarate (CDG) aids the body in inhibiting beta-glucuronidase, an enzyme produced by gut flora that removes the glucuronidase portion off of carcinogens, tumor promoters or hormones. Once the beta-glucuronidase is removed, the carcinogens can then be reabsorbed back into our bodies instead of being dumped out of our gut when we have a bowel movement.
Calcium D-glucarate then indirectly supports the elimination system of potential tumor promoters by making sure they do not disengage from their transport system out of the body. This then eases the burden of the liver.(8)

Conclusion
So, life style adaptations along with ingestion of either I3C or DIM and CDG seems to make the most logical mode-of-action for the scientific data base we now possess.

nice! when I read about the sulfated version of DHEA I thought about the fact that some people used sulfur (like in cruciferous vegetables) to help clear them and thought that maybe it competed somehow with other sulfated agents like DHEA-S. Probably wrong but interesting anyway....

#17 jodiat

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 05:13 PM

QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 1 2008, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
nice! when I read about the sulfated version of DHEA I thought about the fact that some people used sulfur (like in cruciferous vegetables) to help clear them and thought that maybe it competed somehow with other sulfated agents like DHEA-S. Probably wrong but interesting anyway....


Like MSM, thats a sulphur found in the same vegies?

#18 ryudoadema

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 05:33 PM

QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 1 2008, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 1 2008, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
nice! when I read about the sulfated version of DHEA I thought about the fact that some people used sulfur (like in cruciferous vegetables) to help clear them and thought that maybe it competed somehow with other sulfated agents like DHEA-S. Probably wrong but interesting anyway....


Like MSM, thats a sulphur found in the same vegies?

yeah, exactly!

#19 jodiat

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 05:37 PM

QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 1 2008, 05:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jodiat @ Mar 1 2008, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (ryudoadema @ Mar 1 2008, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
nice! when I read about the sulfated version of DHEA I thought about the fact that some people used sulfur (like in cruciferous vegetables) to help clear them and thought that maybe it competed somehow with other sulfated agents like DHEA-S. Probably wrong but interesting anyway....


Like MSM, thats a sulphur found in the same vegies?

yeah, exactly!


I dont know. Maybe they do compete, like proteins compete. I do take MSM and have known about it for awhile. Its always been in my supplement regimine (6grams per day). I know Hollywood actors take it to keep their skin top notch and it helps if your not happy eating vegtables.

#20 jodiat

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 05:50 PM

The FDA:
“Flax seed lignans have anti-tumor, anti-mittic, antioxidant and weak estrogenic activity, are potentially the richest source of phytoestrogens in the human diet and may be linked to a low incidence of breast and colon cancer. Their significant ability to prevent cancer is recognized by the National Cancer Institute. In addition to having anti-cancer properties lignans also have anti-viral, anti-bacterial and anti-fungus properties.”

*(Obermeyer W, et al (US Food and Drug Administration, center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition, Div. Contaminants Chem., Natural Products Branch), Meeting Of The

Federation Of American Societies For Experimental Biology On Experimental Biology March/April, 1993, Faseb J (Fed Am Soc Exp Biol), A863, 1993

The Mayo Clinic:

“Phytoestrogens are naturally occurring compounds that lower circulating estrogens in your body. Flaxseed is particularly high in one phytoestrogen, lignan, which appears to decrease estrogen production and which may inhibit the growth of some breast cancers.” - The Mayo Clinic http://www.mayoclinic.com

The American Cancer Society:

“One study of 25 men with prostate cancer found that a low-fat diet along with ground flaxseed reduced serum testosterone, slowed the growth rate of cancer cells, and increased the death rate of cancer cells.”-

The American Cancer Society. www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Flaxseed.asp?

sitearea=ETO

FLAX HULL LIGNANS

Doctors:

“Flaxseed is one of the richest known sources of lignans, which affect androgen metabolism and have antimitotic, antiangiogenic, antioxidant, and estrogenic effects,” said Dr. Wendy Demark- Wahnefried, Ph.D., of Duke University to attendees at the American Society of Clinical Oncology meeting.

www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverate/ASCOMeeting/tb/5831

ANTIOXIDANTS

Flax Hull Lignans are more potent as an antioxidant than the darkest leafy green vegetable!

Kale is a vegetable that has one of the highest ORAC values (the measurement of antioxidant).

Kale’s ORAC value is 1770, while concentrated Flax Hull Lignans have an ORAC value of 19,600!

Prunes are the fruit with the highest ORAC value at 6,770, which still doesn’t come close to Flax Hull Lignans! *ORAC values on our lignans were performed by Brunswick Laboratories, in Norton, MA.

Flax is actually a flower.....

Kale, a vegetable with a very high antioxidant level “Flax seed lignans have anti-tumor, anti-mittic, antioxidant and weak estrogenic activity.”

-US Food and Drug Administration-

“The flaxseed lignan (SDG) and mammalian lignans (ED and EL) were

previously shown to be effective antioxidants against DNA damage and lipid peroxidation.”

-Hu C, Yuan YV, Kitts DD. Food, Nutrition and Health, University of British Columbia. Published on Pubmed.gov

_________________________________

It seems IC3, DIM, Flax seed lignans, Soy isoflavonoids are all doing a similar job. Im currently having one of the worst colds in my life...ive not had a cold for about 4 years now. Ive only added Flax lignans to my diet a week ago (5grams per day) and think this is making me have a major detox reaction. They all seem to have the effect of helping detox the body and kill/stop cancers. My worry is tho that if your ratios are fine to begin with then it could make acne worse.