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Breaking up scar tissue????

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#1 ArcticMonkey

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 11:14 AM

What exactly does the term breaking up scar tissue mean? I want to get needling done in 8 weeks professionally, and i've read everything about skin needling i can find online, but what i dont quite understand is the breaking up of scar tissue which is always mentioned.

after the scarring has been needled i understand that the scar tissue will have hundreds of tiny perforations, but wont it just heal back to complete scar tissue again, how is it possible to break the scar tissue, i just don't get it, can someone please explain this to me.

Thanks.










#2 Bruin74

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 11:41 AM

QUOTE(ArcticMonkey @ Dec 14 2007, 09:14 AM) View Post
What exactly does the term breaking up scar tissue mean? I want to get needling done in 8 weeks professionally, and i've read everything about skin needling i can find online, but what i dont quite understand is the breaking up of scar tissue which is always mentioned.

after the scarring has been needled i understand that the scar tissue will have hundreds of tiny perforations, but wont it just heal back to complete scar tissue again, how is it possible to break the scar tissue, i just don't get it, can someone please explain this to me.

Thanks.


Think of it like a bunch of long wires. if I had 20 wires and there them all on the floor and then glued their downs wherever the may lie, and then tried to pick up the one wire in the center, it would be very hard as some other wire will be holding it down. So in order to break up the scar tissue, you need to break down the anchors so that the wires can move freely. That's basically what collagen tissue has down, it's a mess on your face. Until you can break down the anchors, you'll see no improvement. The way to break down this tissue is either by physical or chemical means. Weak/Medium Acid,(glycolic acid/TCA) protonate amine groups and hydroxyproline which causes the collagen to become positive charged and push away from eachother. Needling physically moves the collagen and breaks down the fibers that are all entangled. Fraxel, Co2, etc, work by sending down IR radiation which activates the carbonyl functionalities in the peptide bonds causing the collagen to gain energy and move apart, however, it also affects other proteins in the skin, so it can be ablative.

cheers

#3 CM77

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 12:10 PM

QUOTE(ArcticMonkey @ Dec 14 2007, 01:14 PM) View Post
What exactly does the term breaking up scar tissue mean? I want to get needling done in 8 weeks professionally, and i've read everything about skin needling i can find online, but what i dont quite understand is the breaking up of scar tissue which is always mentioned.

after the scarring has been needled i understand that the scar tissue will have hundreds of tiny perforations, but wont it just heal back to complete scar tissue again, how is it possible to break the scar tissue, i just don't get it, can someone please explain this to me.

Thanks.


I thought this page (Click Here) gives a good example of how it works. I'm giving it a try in March.

#4 ArcticMonkey

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 12:58 PM

Thanks guys, that helps.

#5 ArcticMonkey

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 03:34 PM

Ok, i have another question, after reading that link and looking at the diagram i'm unsure how needling or dermarolling can help hypertrophic scars, again its the whole breaking down of scar tissue i don't get, maybe i'm just utterly stupid, but is braking down the scar tissue kind of like dissolving the scar tissue, i mean that is the only thing that would help an elevated scar, to get rid of the excess fibrous scarring that is giving it that thickened/elevated look. how can sticking a needle into a thick/raised scar about a hundred time possibly flatten that scar? I just don't get it.

#6 AI3forever

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 05:55 PM

nice link down there

http://www.dermaroll...ermarolling.htm

its says that the roller penetrates the skin and then promotes collagen and fibroblasts to fill up the acne crater. From what i know, the deep scar tissue has to be destroyed so that it wouldnt have a pulling effect on the scars right? How can dermarolling do this, because we all know that dermarolling only reaches the epidermis. While for deep scars, the scar tissue is embedded within the dermis... So the only effective way to get rid of scars are...

1)Destroy the scar tissue

2)Promote collagen

if this two are effectively done, i dont see why you cant have smooth scar free skin once again...

#7 ArcticMonkey

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 07:43 PM

Tgan you are incorrect, dermarolling does infact reach the dermis, depending on the needle length, if you get any bleedling at all, then you know the dermis has been perforated, as there are no capillaries in the epidermis.

#8 tricia

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 09:47 PM

After breaking down your scars with chemicals, or dermabrasion, as you know from experience arcticmonkey it might get worse. It could rebuild thicker. That's why after the initial injury you should probably wait a year before treating, I believe collagenase has something to do with it all.

I noticed on some of my raised scars after doing deep peels it would look better for awhile and then would just rebuild thicker.

My depressed scars have got somewhat better over the years, but I have accepted they will never look normal again with the treatments out today.

Needling may prove better for you, but you are still creating injury which isn't always the best solution.

#9 NotSoScarredforever

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Posted 15 December 2007 - 12:21 AM

QUOTE(tricia @ Dec 15 2007, 01:47 PM) View Post
After breaking down your scars with chemicals, or dermabrasion, as you know from experience arcticmonkey it might get worse. It could rebuild thicker. That's why after the initial injury you should probably wait a year before treating, I believe collagenase has something to do with it all.

I noticed on some of my raised scars after doing deep peels it would look better for awhile and then would just rebuild thicker.

My depressed scars have got somewhat better over the years, but I have accepted they will never look normal again with the treatments out today.

Needling may prove better for you, but you are still creating injury which isn't always the best solution.

The problem with a lot of treatments is they treat the full face, The surrounding skin remains the same level, give or take a few layers, so the scars dont improve because you are trying to elevate them up to the same level as the surrounding skin,when you think about it its quite logical

#10 ArcticMonkey

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Posted 15 December 2007 - 08:18 AM

so does needling or dermarolling have any effect on the actuall scar, or does it just have an effect underneath the scar in the dermis, as i dont just want to make my pitted scars level with the surrounding skin i want to make the scar itself which you can see on the epidermis, more pleasing on the eye, ie, better texture, less hypopigmented, does that make sence??

Please someone help me out here.

#11 CitizenPanda

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Posted 15 December 2007 - 09:07 AM

QUOTE(ArcticMonkey @ Dec 15 2007, 09:18 AM) View Post
so does needling or dermarolling have any effect on the actuall scar, or does it just have an effect underneath the scar in the dermis, as i dont just want to make my pitted scars level with the surrounding skin i want to make the scar itself which you can see on the epidermis, more pleasing on the eye, ie, better texture, less hypopigmented, does that make sence??

Please someone help me out here.


I guess you have totally different scars than mine. My pitted and hypotrophic scars are all red or hyperpigmented. I don't have any hypertrophic or raised scarring at all.

As I understand, needling is going to help hypotrophic scarring, not hypertrophic. Needling is also best done with a hand powered Tattoo gun, not just any contraption with needles (or a dermaroller) - though I do believe Dermarolling can be effective for rolling scars when used for a very long time.

#12 ArcticMonkey

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Posted 15 December 2007 - 09:15 AM

needling is supposed to be very good for raised hypertrophic scarring, as it helps break up the scar tissue, i've done my research. I have both pitted and 2 raised scars.

#13 AI3forever

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 05:55 AM

QUOTE(ArcticMonkey @ Dec 15 2007, 09:43 AM) View Post
Tgan you are incorrect, dermarolling does infact reach the dermis, depending on the needle length, if you get any bleedling at all, then you know the dermis has been perforated, as there are no capillaries in the epidermis.



yah i know it pokes the dermis if its long. BUT, the scar tissue itself may be deep within the dermis, there is no way that the needle could reach there and destroy that tissue...

#14 lamarr1986

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 08:29 PM

Dermaroller/needling can and does improve both indented and raised scarring, i can attest somewhat on both types... I believe some of the results seen in indented forms of scaring is due to the breakdown of fibros scar tissue, but i also believe alot of it is simply the body replacing destroyed or missing collagen in that area.

To the person who posted about how they don't see treateing the full face will have any effect on individual scars, put it this way... collagen cannot be placed where it is not needed e.g. non scarred areas.. Once some of the fribros scar tissue has been broken down then there will immediately become more room for collagen to be placed into...

The only way i can see it working for raised scarring (which it does) is that it does indeed break down scar tissue and cause the body to remold the skin somewhat if you will. All i know is that if i stick with needleing for a long time i WILL get the results im after, im confident of that.

Although i do believe it is very important to use effective topicals for a number of months after a needleing session. For raised scarring use something like a retinoid or strong copper peptides, i am also using a home dermaroller to greatly improve the penetration of my chosen topicals (terproline, cps and vit c syrum, amungst others).