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When Linoleic Acid isn't available, the body uses Oleic Acid which leads to acne

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#1 NdnRomeo

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 08:16 PM

QUOTE
Linoleic acid is a normal component of sebum. It is an "essential fatty acid" required by the body and most people are more familiar with this bio-chemical as omega oil, fish oil, flax seed oil, safflower oil, evening primrose oil, or a number of other terms. Essential fatty acids are very powerful anti-inflammatory agents. The sebaceous glands normally make sebum with linoleic acid and this form of sebum is calming to the skin. Modern foods have avoided these essential oils in favor of "designer" lipids like trans-fatty acids and research has found links suggesting trans-fats may break down the body's supply of essential fatty acids. When linoleic acid is not available in the skin, the sebaceous gland produces sebum with oleic acid and this form of sebum is irritating to the skin and promotes acne. It has been suggested that oleic acid sebum is drier, firmer and more prone to cause blackheads, whiteheads and promote follicular plugs that lead to acne infections.


http://www.nuimageme...treatments.html

Is there any truth to this statement?

#2 NdnRomeo

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 08:29 PM

Weird...

QUOTE
Diminished concentrations of linoleic acid have been demonstrated in individuals with acne and, interestingly, these levels normalize after successful treatment with isotretinoin. This relative decrease in linoleic acid may be what initiates comedone formation.


http://www.emedicine...DERM/topic2.htm


I am so confused now... =/ Linoleic Acid is omega 6 in case anyone is wondering.


One side, we see that acne is caused by too much LA and then the other side we see it's caused by too little LA.

WTFX is going on??? eusa_wall.gif

#3 NdnRomeo

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 08:45 PM

http://books.google....7tpQSQ#PPA24,M1

Scroll to page 24, it's in a book titled "acne diagnosis and management" It's a section titled "The role of linoleic acid in inducing comedones.

By the way, that book makes me realize how complex acne really is as opposed to simplistic definition and system of approaches we're so used to doing.

Kind of sucks.


also another post

QUOTE
There may be some real benefit to the flaxseed oil. I recently read the article titled: Assessment of Etiologic Agents in Acne Pathogenesis. If you like very scientific reading I recommend it.

In the article they talk about different hypotheses of sebum production. This is what they say:

The free fatty acid fraction of sebum may be important in inflammation. Possibly an important difference between sebum from acne patients and age-matched controls is that the concentration of linoleic acid, an essential fatty acid, is lower in patients with acne. In fact, there is an inverse relationship between sebum secretion and linoleic acid levels in sebum as endogenous lipid synthesis may dilute this essential fatty acid. The importance of linoleic acid is shown in its ability to suppress neutrophile oxygen metabolism and phagocytosis and stimulate the in vitro proliferation of sebocytes.[14] A deficiency of this essential fatty acid in the follicular epithelium may induce follicular hyperkeratosis and decreased epithelial barrier function, as is characteristic of the essential fatty acid deficiency syndrome.

Because flaxseed oil is high in linoleic acid it may be beneficial in preventing the keratin formation in the hair folicle.

I am taking flaxseed supplements but I think it is too early to tell if it is really helping.

I would be elated if acne could be prevented by something as simple as correcting an EFA (essential Fatty acid deficiency).


http://www.healthboa...php/t-5594.html

#4 notadoctor

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 08:57 PM

I know that some countries recommend treating eczema with Evening Primrose Oil, because it is used for something that is anti-inflammatory.

Omega 6 is not bad for you, and is definitely necessary. I am sure that some people are deficient in it (LA, GLA), especially if they are avoiding grains. I have heard that Omega 6 deficiency can also lead to seborrheic dermatitis and psoriasis.

If you consume Linoleic acid, you body can make GammaLinoleic acid. I am about to start taking Evening Primrose Oil (GLA) to see if it helps my Seborrheic Dermatitis. I have also gone back on the Paleo diet (except occasionally potatoes or brown rice) after eating shitty for a while, and feeling like crap.

#5 NdnRomeo

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 09:03 PM

QUOTE(notadoctor @ Sep 16 2007, 09:57 PM) View Post
I know that some countries recommend treating eczema with Evening Primrose Oil, because it is used for something that is anti-inflammatory.

Omega 6 is not bad for you, and is definitely necessary. I am sure that some people are deficient in it (LA, GLA), especially if they are avoiding grains. I have heard that Omega 6 deficiency can also lead to seborrheic dermatitis and psoriasis.

If you consume Linoleic acid, you body can make GammaLinoleic acid. I am about to start taking Evening Primrose Oil (GLA) to see if it helps my Seborrheic Dermatitis. I have also gone back on the Paleo diet (except occasionally potatoes or brown rice) after eating shitty for a while, and feeling like crap.


Thank you for your input, that's very very interesting to say the least.

#6 bɭesstheʄẚɭɭ

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 09:42 PM

I take CLA quite a bit. I wonder if it does anything hehe.

#7 alternativista

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 09:19 AM

QUOTE(NdnRomeo @ Sep 16 2007, 09:16 PM) View Post
http://www.nuimageme...treatments.html

Is there any truth to this statement?


I don't know. I've seen posts from people that have determined they can't eat hydrogenated fats or they will break out. Sweetjade for example. And I have avoided them as part of my diet changes that led to clear skin.

But isn't olive oil primarily oleic acid? Although it does have linoleic acid as well, so maybe it's enough. The theory isn't that oleic acid is bad, it's that it's a bad substitute for a deficiency in linoleic acid, right? Do you know if the book mentions how much we need per their studies or theories? Is there an RDA for EFAs? Not that I trust the RDAs but at least it's someone's educated guesstimate.


#8 NdnRomeo

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 09:52 AM

QUOTE(alternativista @ Sep 17 2007, 10:19 AM) View Post
QUOTE(NdnRomeo @ Sep 16 2007, 09:16 PM) View Post
http://www.nuimageme...treatments.html

Is there any truth to this statement?


I don't know. I've seen posts from people that have determined they can't eat hydrogenated fats or they will break out. Sweetjade for example. And I have avoided them as part of my diet changes that led to clear skin.

But isn't olive oil primarily oleic acid? Although it does have linoleic acid as well, so maybe it's enough. The theory isn't that oleic acid is bad, it's that it's a bad substitute for a deficiency in linoleic acid, right? Do you know if the book mentions how much we need per their studies or theories? Is there an RDA for EFAs? Not that I trust the RDAs but at least it's someone's educated guesstimate.


After reading this i'm quite confused now as well. I do know we need omega 6 fats as well, perhaps the problem arises when there is too much of one over the other so both is needed and harm can be done if either one is eliminted.

Perhaps they are talking about how even though we may get enough LA, our sebaceous glands may not be using it, hence lies the problem? It doesn't talk enough about it, but what I just said is probably just wrong since it's just a guess. Or perhaps we aren't getting enough LA as we thought?

I was analyzing my diet pre-acne.org sign up and realized I was getting too much AA directly (egg yolks, etc) and not enough LA. So then I cut out all omega 6, which is probably an issue now. I was also not getting enough 03's. So adding in 03's helped alot, perhaps now I need to add a healthy normal amount of LA to ensure I am getting enough of both and not too much of one or the other.

Ah I'm really just blabbering on don't mind me, I'm pretty clueless right now, just writting out my thoughts.

#9 notadoctor

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 10:04 AM

I don't think taking LA supplements can hurt. If you are going to do it, take Evening Primrose Oil. I bought some at Whole Foods last night and took it, but it is too early to tell if it is making a difference.

#10 NdnRomeo

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 11:42 AM

QUOTE(notadoctor @ Sep 17 2007, 11:04 AM) View Post
I don't think taking LA supplements can hurt. If you are going to do it, take Evening Primrose Oil. I bought some at Whole Foods last night and took it, but it is too early to tell if it is making a difference.


I bought some today as well, how much are you taking?

Would you also recommend adding olive oil to foods as well? though there is 1.5grams:9grams ratio of LA to OA in every tablespoon

#11 Listener

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 02:45 PM

This is all very interesting research and i am pleased that there are ppl like you, still pushing the boundaries on the research of the pathogenesis of acne.

One of the reasons why i believe not washing my face helps my skin is because all the chemicals in surface lipids are used for desquamation etc.. and removing them just further reduces any kind of biochemical status the skin is attempting to achieve.

I read a text called 'the biochemistry of the skin: the brain on the outside' (something like that anyway) and it showed me just how complex the external aspect of the skin is... and it doesn't even start to suggest how complex the internal aspect could be.

I don't know if you recall Ndn but a long long time ago i sent you a PM explaining a theory i had about the acidity of the skin. I now think most of the theory was wrong but in one part i stated i thought the acidity content of the surface lipids was incorrect and any attempt to correct it with BP would have the adverse effect of messing up other chemical factors of the skin.

The question is: If we could increase the amount of linoleic acid for the synthesis of sebum would it also cause the sebum rate to slow down?

From what i read on that page 24 excerpt it would appear that the overproduction of oil causes the dilution of linoleic acid as opposed to the inadequate supply of linoleic acid causes excess oil to be produced.

hmmm... interesting.

#12 anony.

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 03:13 PM

it seems one of these sites have stolen from the other as i first read this exact same information at http://www.skintacti...fatty_acids.htm

#13 notadoctor

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 06:46 PM

QUOTE(NdnRomeo @ Sep 17 2007, 12:42 PM) View Post
QUOTE(notadoctor @ Sep 17 2007, 11:04 AM) View Post
I don't think taking LA supplements can hurt. If you are going to do it, take Evening Primrose Oil. I bought some at Whole Foods last night and took it, but it is too early to tell if it is making a difference.


I bought some today as well, how much are you taking?

Would you also recommend adding olive oil to foods as well? though there is 1.5grams:9grams ratio of LA to OA in every tablespoon


I am taking 2 softgels a day. 1300mg each. 1940mg LA. 234mg GLA. 185mg OA.

I have always had olive oil in a lot of my foods. Lately, everyday I have been having a salad with Olive Oil Balsamic Vinaigrette dressing. I would not worry about LA:OA ratio.

#14 NdnRomeo

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 08:30 PM

QUOTE(Listener @ Sep 17 2007, 03:45 PM) View Post
This is all very interesting research and i am pleased that there are ppl like you, still pushing the boundaries on the research of the pathogenesis of acne.

One of the reasons why i believe not washing my face helps my skin is because all the chemicals in surface lipids are used for desquamation etc.. and removing them just further reduces any kind of biochemical status the skin is attempting to achieve.

I read a text called 'the biochemistry of the skin: the brain on the outside' (something like that anyway) and it showed me just how complex the external aspect of the skin is... and it doesn't even start to suggest how complex the internal aspect could be.

I don't know if you recall Ndn but a long long time ago i sent you a PM explaining a theory i had about the acidity of the skin. I now think most of the theory was wrong but in one part i stated i thought the acidity content of the surface lipids was incorrect and any attempt to correct it with BP would have the adverse effect of messing up other chemical factors of the skin.

The question is: If we could increase the amount of linoleic acid for the synthesis of sebum would it also cause the sebum rate to slow down?

From what i read on that page 24 excerpt it would appear that the overproduction of oil causes the dilution of linoleic acid as opposed to the inadequate supply of linoleic acid causes excess oil to be produced.

hmmm... interesting.


I hope one day this all can account for results for someone that can piece if all together in a coherent and logical regimen somehow eusa_think.gif

You are so right, I misread it. It seems that the amount of linoleic acid content stays the same, but the more sebum is produced, the more it gets diluted by oleic acid due to how much free fatty acid (linoleic) is in the blood

I typed out the important aspects of the book on the linoelic acid portion:

QUOTE
A link between comedogensis and a low sebum level of linoleic acid was proposed by Downing and co-authors. They found that patients with acne had a significantly lower level of linoleic acid in their skin surface lipids that normal individuals. Subsequent studies have suggested that this effect relates to the higher sebum secretion rates characteristic of acne, since there is an inverse relationship between the secretion rate and the linoleate content of the surface wax esters, which are purely of sebaceous origin. Conversely, a reduction in the rate of sebum secretion by treatment by treatment with the ant-androgen cyproterone acetate, or with oral isotretinoin, cause a corresponding increase in the linoleic acid content of the sebaceous lipds.

Once sebum synthesis begins, no further lipids are accepted from circulation, so that the more sebum that is synthesized per cell, the more initial linoleate content will be diluted.

It is proposed that when the secretion rate of sebum is high, as in acne, and, as a result, its linoleate concentration is low, the cells of the follicular epithelium might thereby be subjected to lipds that are deficient in essential fatty acids.


I wonder if there is any way to regulate the amount of oleic acid the sebaceous glands can use, perhaps by regulating the production of oleic acid by our bodies (since the body produces the omega 9 fat by itself).

__

That book on the biochemisty of the skin sounds interesting. It's pretty interesting reading these books regarding just the skin, makes you realize how vast and complex it really is even more so than we know of (our typical information we usually read), there just has to be something we are overlooking.

__

I also looked up cyproterone acetate as used in the study and found that:

QUOTE
Cyproterone Acetate

Cyproterone Acetate is used to reduce sex drive in men which have excessive sex drive and for the treatment of pronounced sexual aggression. It is also prescribed to treat severe hirsuitism in woman of childbearing age and also androgenetic alopecia in women. Like cimitedine and other similar type drugs Cyproterone acetate exerts its effects by blocking the binding of DHT dihydrotestosterone to its receptors.







#15 Listener

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 04:18 AM

Atm i am leaning towards 'diabetes of the skin' being a possible factor.
This phrase was coined by some person who i don't know the name of and the explanation of what diabetes of the skin was, is bullshit at best but neverthless i think insulin plays a large role.

Then again there's all that liver, metabolism, rxr receptors...etc....

#16 alternativista

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 06:45 AM

QUOTE(NdnRomeo @ Sep 17 2007, 09:30 PM) View Post
I also looked up cyproterone acetate as used in the study and found that:

QUOTE
Cyproterone Acetate

Cyproterone Acetate is used to reduce sex drive in men which have excessive sex drive and for the treatment of pronounced sexual aggression. It is also prescribed to treat severe hirsuitism in woman of childbearing age and also androgenetic alopecia in women. Like cimitedine and other similar type drugs Cyproterone acetate exerts its effects by blocking the binding of DHT dihydrotestosterone to its receptors.



I don't think CPA is available in the U.S. At least there's a birth control pill called Diane and dianette that contains it and is very helpful with hormone imbalance, but you can't get it here.

#17 NdnRomeo

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 10:05 AM

QUOTE(Listener @ Sep 18 2007, 05:18 AM) View Post
Atm i am leaning towards 'diabetes of the skin' being a possible factor.
This phrase was coined by some person who i don't know the name of and the explanation of what diabetes of the skin was, is bullshit at best but neverthless i think insulin plays a large role.

Then again there's all that liver, metabolism, rxr receptors...etc....


This almost seems like a never ending quest

QUOTE(alternativista @ Sep 18 2007, 07:45 AM) View Post
QUOTE(NdnRomeo @ Sep 17 2007, 09:30 PM) View Post
I also looked up cyproterone acetate as used in the study and found that:

QUOTE
Cyproterone Acetate

Cyproterone Acetate is used to reduce sex drive in men which have excessive sex drive and for the treatment of pronounced sexual aggression. It is also prescribed to treat severe hirsuitism in woman of childbearing age and also androgenetic alopecia in women. Like cimitedine and other similar type drugs Cyproterone acetate exerts its effects by blocking the binding of DHT dihydrotestosterone to its receptors.



I don't think CPA is available in the U.S. At least there's a birth control pill called Diane and dianette that contains it and is very helpful with hormone imbalance, but you can't get it here.


Also diane is only available to women correct? So that rules out both of those options sad.gif

#18 alternativista

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:12 PM

QUOTE(NdnRomeo @ Sep 18 2007, 11:05 AM) View Post
QUOTE(alternativista @ Sep 18 2007, 07:45 AM) View Post
QUOTE(NdnRomeo @ Sep 17 2007, 09:30 PM) View Post
I also looked up cyproterone acetate as used in the study and found that:

QUOTE
Cyproterone Acetate

Cyproterone Acetate is used to reduce sex drive in men which have excessive sex drive and for the treatment of pronounced sexual aggression. It is also prescribed to treat severe hirsuitism in woman of childbearing age and also androgenetic alopecia in women. Like cimitedine and other similar type drugs Cyproterone acetate exerts its effects by blocking the binding of DHT dihydrotestosterone to its receptors.



I don't think CPA is available in the U.S. At least there's a birth control pill called Diane and dianette that contains it and is very helpful with hormone imbalance, but you can't get it here.


Also diane is only available to women correct? So that rules out both of those options sad.gif


It might be available in another form. And maybe it is available here. I just know that the birth control that contains it is not approved here.

#19 Dingo Jellybean

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 09:35 PM

There is no truth to that statement. Here's why: Linoleic acid is an omega 6 fatty acid, oleic acid is an omega 9 fatty acid. Omega 9's are not part of the prostaglandin process, and they are not even essential to the human diet (your body can make this from saturated fat). You do not need much linoleic acid anyways, just 5-6g of linoleic acid per day is all you need assuming adequete conversion of linoleic acid into longer chain omega 6 fatty acids like ARA.

So there is no way your body can use oleic acid in place of linoleic acid.

#20 NdnRomeo

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 10:33 PM

QUOTE(Super Bellybutton @ Sep 18 2007, 10:35 PM) View Post
There is no truth to that statement. Here's why: Linoleic acid is an omega 6 fatty acid, oleic acid is an omega 9 fatty acid. Omega 9's are not part of the prostaglandin process, and they are not even essential to the human diet (your body can make this from saturated fat). You do not need much linoleic acid anyways, just 5-6g of linoleic acid per day is all you need assuming adequete conversion of linoleic acid into longer chain omega 6 fatty acids like ARA.

So there is no way your body can use oleic acid in place of linoleic acid.


Yeah, omega 9 is not essential, hence only why 3 and 6 are essential fatty acids. Reason being is your body makes it own 9. (You probably know this but just writing it out). It makes sense that the sebaceous glands would use oleic acid after a certain point as it mentioned. Basing this off of the explanation from the book quote, not the original post. It was saying something about how it uses linoleic acid (sebaceous activity), then after a certain point, the more that is produced becomes prominently oleic acid. But who really knows.

It's good though that we only need 5 to 6 grams of linoleic acid per day smile.gif!