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#1 thetruth24

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 05:21 PM

Being the nerd I am,

I research a lot in regards to acne. I am into lifting, and a while I ago, I bought biotest's res-v. A little while I ago, I too testosterone boosters, which resulted in painful nodules all over my face. I immediately quit taking all lifting supplements cause I was scared to aggravate my condition any farther. I also got pretty lazy in lifting. Well recently I have decided to get back into it and I came across this bottle. I wanted to take it but, it said testosterone supporting formula, so I googled it and to my suprise Resveratrol is benefical to acne!

I put it in the search button and came across very helpful posts by autonomous. In my other thread, Jemini posted an interesting idea about PPARs and how they might affect acne.

Apparently resveratrol is a potent 5 lipoxygenase inhibitor. 5 lipoyxgenase converts arachinodic acid into pro-inflammatory leukotrines. According to the studies posted by autonomous, these leukotrines can stimulate the sebaceous glands. Arachinodic downregulates PPARs, which affect rxr receptors, just like how accutane works!

In additionm, resveratrol is a CYP1A1 enzyme inhibior. CYP1A1 is an ezyme that encourages the breakdown of retinoic acid which maybe be the reason why the cells in our skins begin to disfunction, resulting in hyperkeratinization.

Here is a study of topical resveratrol and acne:
http://www.freepaten...0010056071.html

#2 xebag

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 09:49 PM

QUOTE
There's a substance in nature that's been the subject of a whole lot of worldwide research lately. It's called resveratrol and it's a polyphenol found in such foods as peanuts, grapes (and consequently, wine), and mulberries.

Resveratrol has a whole lot of good things going for it, but the one we're most interested in has to do with estrogen. You see, resveratrol acts as a potent estrogen antagonist (while also acting as an agonist in some tissues, similar to the drugs clomiphene and tamoxifen).

In higher concentrations, it acts as an aromatase inhibitor. That means that it stops the body from whittling away at your Testosterone.

This is cool because if a substance stops Testosterone from being converted to estrogen or estradiol, it not only prevents the nasty effects of estrogen (loss of muscle and strength and accrual of body fat), but it increases your level of Testosterone, leading to additional strength and muscle!

What's equally important is that it won't cause your Testicles to go on vacation, i.e. shrink. The testicles don't get a signal from the pituitary to shut down because estrogen has been curtailed!

There's a lot of good data in animal models to back this up. Studies have demonstrated a resveratrol-fueled increase in Luteinizing Hormone and Follicle Stimulating Hormone (the pituitary hormones that signal the testicles to start producing Testosterone) that's 2.7 times greater than placebo.

Additionally, resveratrol caused a 76% increase in sperm count, all of this without any adverse effects. (1)

The aromatase inhibition is thought to occur through two mechanisms: reducing the expression of aromatase, as well as binding to the enzyme and preventing it from doing its dirty work.

And, unlike conventional aromatase inhibitors, resveratrol doesn't cause a decline in endothelial (blood vessel) function. In fact, it seems to improve it! (2-12)

And remember those nasty xenoestrogens I mentioned earlier? Resveratrol seems to occupy the receptor sites, or biological "parking lots," so that these xenoestrogens can't "park" in their spots. That's good.


MORE GOOD STUFF

While athletes should no doubt be excited about these Testosterone-increasing, estrogen-lowering effects of resveratrol, male and female Life Extension people have been all over this substance for other reasons.

An overwhelming amount of literature on resveratrol has demonstrated potent cardiovascular benefits, anti-aging effects, powerful anti-cancer effects, anti-arthritic, and neurological effects (e.g. potential benefits in treating Alzheimer's Disease). Many of these benefits seem to stem from anti-oxidative and anti-inflammatory effects as well as gene modulation. (13-21)

What the Life Extension people are most excited about, though, is that resveratrol might actually extend lifespan.

Remember those calorie deprivation people that believed you could extend your lifespan considerably by just munching on a ridiculously low number of calories each day?

Well, one proposed mechanism by which calorie deprivation can make you live longer is that it activates a protein called SIRT1 (sirtuin 1). Activation of this protein inhibits PPAR-gamma activity and this causes your body to burn fat.

It's not hard to imagine that having less fat might cause you to live longer, but remarkably, resveratrol activates this very same SIRT1 protein.

So even if you're not concerned with extending your life at this point, resveratrol can cause your body to burn fat.

Maybe you've heard of the "French Paradox" (and no, it has nothing to do with why their star soccer player would head butt a guy in the finals of the World Cup)?

It's the medical puzzle where certain populations (French and Greek) seem to experience a low incidence of coronary heart disease while eating a diet high in saturated fat. Epidemiologists have reasoned that it has to do with their daily consumption of red wine.

Well, many researchers have gone one step further and concluded that it was the resveratrol in the wine that was responsible for the French Paradox. (22-25)

This miracle substance has also been shown to have impressive anti-fungal and anti-viral properties, and may even protect the liver from excessive alcohol consumption or oxidative damage from taking too much acetaminophen. (26-39)

If all that wasn't enough, there's a good deal of data demonstrating that resveratrol is an extremely promising compound for the prevention and treatment of prostate cancer! (40-48)

So if taking Testosterone-boosting supplements has made you wary before because of possible prostate risks, resveratrol seems like the answer to your prayers.


QUIT TEASING ME

Quit teasing you? Oh, okay.

If there's an exciting compound out there, Tim and I want it; we want it for ourselves and we figure that if we want it, chances are you want it too.

That's why Biotest has been working on the isolation of pure resveratrol for the last year, and why we're introducing our newest supplement, REZ-V. Each bottle of REZ-V contains 72 tablets of the purest, highest-grade of resveratrol possible.

Our recommended dosage of REZ-V is three tablets once per day. It's best to take one large dose of resveratrol, instead of several smaller doses, because of the way it's metabolized. In essence, you want to overwhelm the body's ability to inactivate and excrete resveratrol, which is done through sulfation and glucuronidation (adding sulfate and beta-glucuronide groups).

This "overwhelming" process is accomplished at about 200 mg taken in one shot. A three-tablet dose contains 300 mg of pure resveratrol, which is also the dose we believe delivers the greatest benefit for the least cost.

Unlike a lot of other supplements, REZ-V doesn't have to be cycled. In fact, because of the super-powerful health and protective benefits, we recommend all males over 18 take REZ-V every day.


With REZ-V you get the following possible benefits:

• Acts as both an estrogen antagonist and an aromatase inhibitor.

• Increases Testosterone without causing testicular shutdown

• Promotes blood vessel health and cardiovascular health in general

• Exhibits anti-cancer effects, particularly anti prostate-cancer effects

• Exhibits anti-aging effects

• Promotes fat loss

• Has anti-inflammatory properties

• Acts as an anti-oxidant

• Exhibits anti-arthritic effects

• Shows anti-fungal and anti-viral effects

• Acts as a liver protectant

Excuse me for saying so, but that's all pretty damn cool.

The cost for this wonder supplement? An extraordinarily low $34.99 per bottle. That's a whole lot of benefit for not a whole lot of money.

Whether you're interested in increased Testosterone and decreased estrogen, along with reduced levels of body fat, or just want to be healthier and possibly live longer, REZ-V has got to be part of your daily supplement arsenal.


References

1. Juan ME, et al. "trans-Resveratrol, a natural antioxidant from grapes, Increases sperm output in healthy rats." J Nutr. 2005 Apr;135(4):757-60.

2. Bhat KP, et al. "Estrogenic and antiestrogenic properties of resveratrol in mammary tumor models." Cancer Res. 2001 Oct 15;61(20):7456-63.

3. Henry LA, Witt DM. "Resveratrol: phytoestrogen effects on reproductive physiology and behavior in female rats." Horm Behav. 2002 Mar;41(2):220-8.

4. Matsumura A, Ghosh A, Pope GS, Darbre PD. "Comparative study of oestrogenic properties of eight phytoestrogens in MCF7 human breast cancer cells." J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005 Apr;94(5):431-43.

5. Bowers JL, et al. "Resveratrol acts as a mixed agonist/antagonist for estrogen receptors alpha and beta." Endocrinology. 2000 Oct;141(10):3657-67.

6. Lu R, Serrero G. "Resveratrol, a natural product derived from grape, exhibits antiestrogenic activity and inhibits the growth of human breast cancer cells." J Cell Physiol. 1999 Jun;179(3):297-304.

7. Turner RT, et al. "Is resveratrol an estrogen agonist in growing rats?" Endocrinology. 1999 Jan;140(1):50-4.

8. Bhat KP, Pezzuto JM. "Resveratrol exhibits cytostatic and antiestrogenic properties with human endometrial adenocarcinoma (Ishikawa) cells." Cancer Res. 2001 Aug 15;61(16):6137-44.

9. Wang Y, et al. "The Red Wine Polyphenol Resveratrol Displays BI-Level Inhibition on Aromatase in Breast Cancer Cells." Toxicol Sci. 2006 Apr 11; E-Published Ahead of Print

10. Wallerath T, et al. "A blend of polyphenolic compounds explains the stimulatory effect of red wine on human endothelial NO synthase." Nitric Oxide. 2005 Mar;12(2):97-104.

11. Lekakis J, et al. "Polyphenolic compounds from red grapes acutely improve endothelial function in patients with coronary heart disease." Eur J Cardiovasc Prev Rehabil. 2005 Dec;12(6):596-600.

12. Buluc M, Demirel-Yilmaz E. "Resveratrol decreases calcium sensitivity of vascular smooth muscle and enhances cytosolic calcium increase in endothelium." Vascul Pharmacol. 2006 Apr;44(4):231-7.

13. Labinskyy N, et al. "Vascular dysfunction in aging: potential effects of resveratrol, an anti-inflammatory phytoestrogen." Curr Med Chem. 2006;13(9):989-96.

14. Bhat KPL, et al. "Biological effects of resveratrol." Antioxid Redox Signal. 2001 Dec;3(6):1041-64.

15. Bradamante S, et al. "Cardiovascular protective effects of resveratrol." Cardiovasc Drug Rev. 2004 Fall;22(3):169-88.

16. de la Lastra CA & Villegas I. "Resveratrol as an anti-inflammatory and anti-aging agent: mechanisms and clinical implications." Mol Nutr Food Res. 2005 May;49(5):405-30.

17. Delmas D, Jannin B, Latruffe N. "Resveratrol: preventing properties against vascular alterations and ageing." Mol Nutr Food Res. 2005 May;49(5):377-95.

18. Valenzano DR, et al. "Resveratrol prolongs lifespan and retards the onset of age-related markers in a short-lived vertebrate." Curr Biol. 2006 Feb 7;16(3):296-300.

19. Marambaud P, Zhao H, Davies P. "Resveratrol promotes clearance of Alzheimer's disease amyloid-beta peptides." J. Biol. Chem 2005 Nov;280(45): 37377-37382

20. Molnar V, Garai J. "Plant-derived anti-inflammatory compounds affect MIF tautomerase activity." Int Immunopharmacol. 2005 May;5(5):849-56.

21. Elmali N, et al. "Effect of resveratrol in experimental osteoarthritis in rabbits." Inflamm Res. 2005 Apr;54(4):158-62.

22. Kopp P. "Resveratrol, a phytoestrogen found in red wine. A possible explanation for the conundrum of the 'French paradox'?" Eur J Endocrinol. 1998 Jun;138(6):619-20.

23. Constant, J. "Alcohol, ischemic heart disease, and the French paradox." Coron. Artery Dis. 1997; 8:645 — 649.

24. Das, D K, et al. "Cardioprotection of red wine: role of polyphenolic antioxidants." Drugs Exp Clin Res. 1999;25(2-3):115-20.

25. Soleas GJ, Diamandis EP, Goldberg DM. "The world of resveratrol." Adv Exp Med Biol. 2001;492:159-82.

26. Wyke SM, Tisdale MJ. "Induction of protein degradation in skeletal muscle by a phorbol ester involves upregulation of the ubiquitin-proteasome proteolytic pathway." 2006 May;78(25):2898-2910

27. Tisdale MJ. "The ubiquitin-proteasome pathway as a therapeutic target for muscle wasting." J Support Oncol. 2005 May-Jun;3(3):209-17.

28. Wyke SM, Russell ST, Tisdale MJ. "Induction of proteasome expression in skeletal muscle is attenuated by inhibitors of NF-kappaB activation." Br J Cancer. 2004 Nov 1;91(9):1742-50.

29. Borra MT, Smith BC, Denu JM. "Mechanism of human SIRT1 activation by resveratrol." J Biol Chem. 2005 Apr 29;280(17):17187-95.

30. Picard F, et al. "Sirt1 promotes fat mobilization in white adipocytes by repressing PPAR-gamma." Nature. 2004 Jun 17;429(6993):771-6.

31. Wolf G. "Calorie restriction increases life span: a molecular mechanism." Nutr Rev. 2006 Feb;64(2 Pt 1):89-92.

32. Ingram DK, et al. "Calorie restriction mimetics: an emerging research field." Aging Cell. 2006 Apr;5(2):97-108.

33. Roth GS, Lane MA, Ingram DK. "Caloric restriction mimetics: the next phase." Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2005 Dec;1057:365-71.

34. Tian WX. "Inhibition of fatty acid synthase by polyphenols." Curr Med Chem. 2006;13(8):967-77.

35. Kasdallah-Grissa A, et al. "Protective effect of resveratrol on ethanol-induced lipid peroxidation in rats." Alcohol Alcohol. 2006 May-Jun;41(3):236-9

36. Sener G, et al. "Protective effects of resveratrol against acetaminophen-induced toxicity in mice." Hepatol Res. 2006 Apr 1; E-Published Ahead of Print

37. Docherty JJ, et al. "Effect of resveratrol on herpes simplex virus vaginal infection in the mouse." Antiviral Res. 2005 Sep;67(3):155-62.

38. Jung HJ, et al. "Fungicidal effect of resveratrol on human infectious fungi." Arch Pharm Res. 2005 May;28(5):557-60.

39. Palamara AT, et al. "Inhibition of influenza A virus replication by resveratrol." J Infect Dis. 2005 May 15;191(10):1719-29.

40. Yoo KM, et al. "Potent Inhibitory Effects of Resveratrol Derivatives on Progression of Prostate Cancer Cells." Arch Pharm (Weinheim). 2006 Apr 18;339(5):238-241

41. Jones SB, et al. "Resveratrol-induced gene expression profiles in human prostate cancer cells." Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2005 Mar;14(3):596-604.

42. Scifo C, et al. "Resveratrol and propolis as necrosis or apoptosis inducers in human prostate carcinoma cells." Oncol Res. 2004;14(9):415-26.

43. Kim YA, et al. "Antiproliferative effect of resveratrol in human prostate carcinoma cells." J Med Food. 2003 Winter;6(4):273-80.

44. Stewart JR, Artime MC, O'Brian CA. "Resveratrol: a candidate nutritional substance for prostate cancer prevention." J Nutr. 2003 Jul;133(7 Suppl):2440S-2443S.

45. Ratan HL, et al. "Resveratrol — a prostate cancer chemopreventive agent?" Urol Oncol. 2002 Nov-Dec;7(6):223-7.

46. Aggarwal BB, et al. "Role of resveratrol in prevention and therapy of cancer: preclinical and clinical studies." Anticancer Res. 2004 Sep-Oct;24(5A):2783-840.

47. Aziz MH, Kumar R, Ahmad N. "Cancer chemoprevention by resveratrol: in vitro and in vivo studies and the underlying mechanisms (review)." Int J Oncol. 2003 Jul;23(1):17-28.

48. Delmas D, et al. "Resveratrol as a chemopreventive agent: a promising molecule for fighting cancer." Curr Drug Targets. 2006 Apr;7(4):423-42.


http://www.t-nation....e.do?id=1158493

Any thoughts?

#3 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 01:46 AM

QUOTE(thetruth24 @ Aug 9 2007, 06:21 PM) View Post
Being the nerd I am,

I research a lot in regards to acne. I am into lifting, and a while I ago, I bought biotest's res-v. A little while I ago, I too testosterone boosters, which resulted in painful nodules all over my face. I immediately quit taking all lifting supplements cause I was scared to aggravate my condition any farther. I also got pretty lazy in lifting. Well recently I have decided to get back into it and I came across this bottle. I wanted to take it but, it said testosterone supporting formula, so I googled it and to my suprise Resveratrol is benefical to acne!

I put it in the search button and came across very helpful posts by autonomous. In my other thread, Jemini posted an interesting idea about PPARs and how they might affect acne.

Apparently resveratrol is a potent 5 lipoxygenase inhibitor. 5 lipoyxgenase converts arachinodic acid into pro-inflammatory leukotrines. According to the studies posted by autonomous, these leukotrines can stimulate the sebaceous glands. Arachinodic downregulates PPARs, which affect rxr receptors, just like how accutane works!

In additionm, resveratrol is a CYP1A1 enzyme inhibior. CYP1A1 is an ezyme that encourages the breakdown of retinoic acid which maybe be the reason why the cells in our skins begin to disfunction, resulting in hyperkeratinization.

Here is a study of topical resveratrol and acne:
http://www.freepaten...0010056071.html


Nice find!!! and this was all patented in 2001, so i wonder where are these medications they are planning to sell? perhaps they couldnt afford any further clinical trials.

thanks also for the recognition, seems like you have a pretty good understanding of these new concepts and the relationship between ppars and rxr receptors.

Just so you know fish oil(epa) and chloropyll which breaks down into phytanic acid are also ppar agonists and may help acne, well, seem to help acne, as well as a whole bunch of other stuff and curcumin also has some interesting properties that can be beneficial for inflammation, its a cox-2 inhibitor.

For the record ive been off of resveratrol for a while now, it could have been helping when i was taking it but because ive taken so many things at once its hard to truly pin point one thing. I plan on giving it another shot.


One other thing you should be aware of is that the are also alterations in fat metabolism with acne patients, your liver creates a component of hdl cholesterol called apolipoprotein a-1, its job is to collect excess cholesterol within the blood and shuttle it back to the liver to be excreted through the bowels, this may be related to inflammatory diseases such as acne, many many details i cant remember though, i apologize. interestingly isotretinoin has been observed to correct abnormal fat metabolism in many cases. this is another reason to take fish oil as it improves fat metabolism, possibly through its effects on ppar, and also slow release niacin, another proven way to improve fat metabolism.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum
#1.critical nutritional issues- b12(three forms exist), Calcium(yogurt, cheese or calcium phosphate supps) and vitamin d(sun or supps not to exceed 1000 iu). heme iron-most absorbable from meat only, clams are high. these are the most difficult vitamins to get and absorb. All others or about the same in difficulty in absorption. MAgnesium in our food supply is generally low as well, try natural calm supps.
#2 Fats- monounsaturated should dominate(olives), followed by polyunsaturated plant sources(nuts) but not if you have acne. the health benefits of fish oil and fish are controversial and i dont consume them due to mercury contamination and immune supression avoid processed fats if possible.
#3 Protein/amino acids- dairy and eggs best sources for tryptophan and methionine which convert to powerful antioxidants melatonin and glutathione.
#4 Carotenoids- alpha- beta carotene, beta cryptoxanthin, lutein zeaxanthin, astaxanthin. these are vital to human nutrition, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, chili pepper and cayenne pepper are the best sources.
#5 Regularity-BM at least once a day, Moist, large stools, 1 piece ideal, no maldigestion, no floating stools indicative of maldigested fat. HOW- insoluble fiber- wheat and cooked vegetables. soluble fiber-oats/ good bacteria ferment soluble fiber making short chain fatty acids that inhibit pathogens.
#6 Circadian cycles-Light, get up with the sun, and expose your entire body to it. darkness-melatonin is released upon the sensing of absolute darkness. sleep in a pitch black room, try to ensure 10 hours total darkness, wear sunglasses before bed. do not eat too late at night.
#7 Desirable physiological states(positive moods/emotions) do precisely what you like and what feels good to you, but not regardless of consequences, just from a perspective that, you own your life, and can determine precisely what you do with it and need not answer or ask of permission from anyone,achieving maximum autonomy and self government.

#4 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 01:51 AM

Invest Dermatol. 2006 Nov;126(11):2473-80. Epub 2006 Jun 15. Links
Skin retinoid concentrations are modulated by CYP26AI expression restricted to basal keratinocytes in normal human skin and differentiated 3D skin models.Heise R, Mey J, Neis MM, Marquardt Y, Joussen S, Ott H, Wiederholt T, Kurschat P, Megahed M, Bickers DR, Merk HF, Baron JM.
Department of Dermatology and Allergology, University Hospital of the RWTH Aachen, Aachen, Germany.

Cellular levels of all-trans retinoic acid (RA) are meticulously regulated utilizing an array of systems to balance uptake, biosynthesis, catabolism, and efflux transport. Metabolic transformation of all-trans RA to 4-hydroxylated RA appears to be primarily catalyzed by the cytochrome P450 (CYP) 26AI. Analysis of monolayer cultures of normal human epidermal keratinocytes (NHEKs) and dermal fibroblasts by quantitative real-time PCR and reverse transcription-PCR revealed no basal levels of CYP26AI mRNA expression, whereas specific transcripts were detectable following addition of 10(-6) M all-trans RA. Immunofluorescence and Western blot analysis showed a weak expression of CYP26AI in NHEK, which was increased by stimulation with all-trans RA. Using a newly developed peptide antibody, we further examined the localization of CYP26AI expression in normal skin and three-dimensional (3D) skin models. In contrast to cell culture monolayers where CYP26AI was only weakly detectable, strong constitutive expression of CYP26AI in vivo and in organotypic culture was found to be restricted to basal epidermal keratinocytes, as well as eccrine sweat glands and sebaceous glands. These studies verify the capacity of human skin to metabolize RA, although substantial differences exist in CYP expression between normal skin and 3D skin models compared to monolayer cultures. Complex metabolic processes that maintain retinoid homeostasis may therefore be better studied in model systems more closely resembling in vivo skin. In light of our prior studies documenting the functional activity of RA metabolites, expression of CYP26 in the sebaceous gland epithelium supports the suggestion that altered RA metabolism may be involved in the pathogenesis of acne.

PMID: 16778795

#1.critical nutritional issues- b12(three forms exist), Calcium(yogurt, cheese or calcium phosphate supps) and vitamin d(sun or supps not to exceed 1000 iu). heme iron-most absorbable from meat only, clams are high. these are the most difficult vitamins to get and absorb. All others or about the same in difficulty in absorption. MAgnesium in our food supply is generally low as well, try natural calm supps.
#2 Fats- monounsaturated should dominate(olives), followed by polyunsaturated plant sources(nuts) but not if you have acne. the health benefits of fish oil and fish are controversial and i dont consume them due to mercury contamination and immune supression avoid processed fats if possible.
#3 Protein/amino acids- dairy and eggs best sources for tryptophan and methionine which convert to powerful antioxidants melatonin and glutathione.
#4 Carotenoids- alpha- beta carotene, beta cryptoxanthin, lutein zeaxanthin, astaxanthin. these are vital to human nutrition, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, chili pepper and cayenne pepper are the best sources.
#5 Regularity-BM at least once a day, Moist, large stools, 1 piece ideal, no maldigestion, no floating stools indicative of maldigested fat. HOW- insoluble fiber- wheat and cooked vegetables. soluble fiber-oats/ good bacteria ferment soluble fiber making short chain fatty acids that inhibit pathogens.
#6 Circadian cycles-Light, get up with the sun, and expose your entire body to it. darkness-melatonin is released upon the sensing of absolute darkness. sleep in a pitch black room, try to ensure 10 hours total darkness, wear sunglasses before bed. do not eat too late at night.
#7 Desirable physiological states(positive moods/emotions) do precisely what you like and what feels good to you, but not regardless of consequences, just from a perspective that, you own your life, and can determine precisely what you do with it and need not answer or ask of permission from anyone,achieving maximum autonomy and self government.

#5 thetruth24

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 06:48 PM

Thanks Autonomous!

I'm not sure about that either. Earlier I was looking for some topical spironolactone, and discovered only a couple research companies had it. I wonder if taking resveratrol orally would have the same effect as applying it topically.

That said, I noticed that a topical spironolactone was proven to be effective in treating acne. They had to use a proper vehicle though, since it was metabolized too quickly. This leads me to believe that some how androgens and PPARs are related. Because, there are many women who take these anti androgens and have good results. Their oil production decreased dramatically and their acne disappeared. Same thing with accutane, it accepts 1 the RXR receptors, but has no known effects on androgen levels/binding.

There was an interesting discussion which you were involved in, but I can't seem to find it. All I remember is it discussed the different PPARs and how any ppar agonist would stimulate the oil glands. (Something about fish oil helping others will making others worse) I think the delta receptor was key in inflammation..I forgot.

So basically I think androgen receptors and PPARs are some how related.

In the study I posted, it looks like resveratrol corrects hyperkeratinization.

What puzzles me is that resveratrol, is suppose to support testosterone and preventing it from aromatizing to estrogen. Would'nt that mean for DHT and thus more oil and acne?

Even though eicosanoid (made from fish oil) binds to these receptors, it still has the potential to stimulate sebaceous glands.

Another thought..maybe the reason why we don't see the benefits of these supplements that are suppose to inhibit these receptors is because we don't get enough of it into our bloodstream. Got me thinking about accutane, and how its basically a mega overdose of 13 cis retinoic acid. We certainily would'nt see those effects by taking standard doses of vitamin A.





#6 thetruth24

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 06:53 PM

Man, there are so many enzymes and receptors and blah blah that it makes my head spin!

A little short off topic question!

What are you're thoughts on saw palmetto. I've read conflicting research where Saw palmetto helps with acne, while others say it only specifically blocks and inhibits androgens in the prostate.



#7 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 11:23 PM

QUOTE(thetruth24 @ Aug 10 2007, 07:53 PM) View Post
Man, there are so many enzymes and receptors and blah blah that it makes my head spin!

A little short off topic question!

What are you're thoughts on saw palmetto. I've read conflicting research where Saw palmetto helps with acne, while others say it only specifically blocks and inhibits androgens in the prostate.


Yea confusing stuff, but its worth the shot to try and understand it.

well for saw palmetto i did try it and didnt seem to make a dent. I took it for its supposed inhibition of 5- alpha reductase enzyme that converts testosterone into dht.
So from experience it did nothing, and now my opinions on acne have changed and dht seems to be an irrellevent factor at this point seeing as though in-vitro it has little ability on its own to stimulate the sebaceous glands, although when in the presence of linoleic acid, it increases sebum out put by a little, while linoleic acid has the ability to increase sebaceous glands activity like 80% (this is from memory though)

So since eicosanoids are made from linoleic acid and its derivatives, you can see where the reasearch has evolved to now focusing on eicosanoids and their interactions with ppars.

I just now read a study that suggests saw palmetto is a leukotrine b4 (ltb4) blocker.



#1.critical nutritional issues- b12(three forms exist), Calcium(yogurt, cheese or calcium phosphate supps) and vitamin d(sun or supps not to exceed 1000 iu). heme iron-most absorbable from meat only, clams are high. these are the most difficult vitamins to get and absorb. All others or about the same in difficulty in absorption. MAgnesium in our food supply is generally low as well, try natural calm supps.
#2 Fats- monounsaturated should dominate(olives), followed by polyunsaturated plant sources(nuts) but not if you have acne. the health benefits of fish oil and fish are controversial and i dont consume them due to mercury contamination and immune supression avoid processed fats if possible.
#3 Protein/amino acids- dairy and eggs best sources for tryptophan and methionine which convert to powerful antioxidants melatonin and glutathione.
#4 Carotenoids- alpha- beta carotene, beta cryptoxanthin, lutein zeaxanthin, astaxanthin. these are vital to human nutrition, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, chili pepper and cayenne pepper are the best sources.
#5 Regularity-BM at least once a day, Moist, large stools, 1 piece ideal, no maldigestion, no floating stools indicative of maldigested fat. HOW- insoluble fiber- wheat and cooked vegetables. soluble fiber-oats/ good bacteria ferment soluble fiber making short chain fatty acids that inhibit pathogens.
#6 Circadian cycles-Light, get up with the sun, and expose your entire body to it. darkness-melatonin is released upon the sensing of absolute darkness. sleep in a pitch black room, try to ensure 10 hours total darkness, wear sunglasses before bed. do not eat too late at night.
#7 Desirable physiological states(positive moods/emotions) do precisely what you like and what feels good to you, but not regardless of consequences, just from a perspective that, you own your life, and can determine precisely what you do with it and need not answer or ask of permission from anyone,achieving maximum autonomy and self government.

#8 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 11:51 PM

QUOTE(thetruth24 @ Aug 10 2007, 07:48 PM) View Post
Thanks Autonomous!

I'm not sure about that either. Earlier I was looking for some topical spironolactone, and discovered only a couple research companies had it. I wonder if taking resveratrol orally would have the same effect as applying it topically.


That said, I noticed that a topical spironolactone was proven to be effective in treating acne. They had to use a proper vehicle though, since it was metabolized too quickly. This leads me to believe that some how androgens and PPARs are related. Because, there are many women who take these anti androgens and have good results. Their oil production decreased dramatically and their acne disappeared. Same thing with accutane, it accepts 1 the RXR receptors, but has no known effects on androgen levels/binding.


this is the only study i found for topical spiro.

: J Dermatol. 1996 Apr;23(4):243-6.Links
Topical spironolactone reduces sebum secretion rates in young adults.Yamamoto A, Ito M.
Department of Dermatology, Niigata University School of Medicine, Japan.

The effects of topically applied spironolactone on the sebum secretion rates (SSR) of young adults were investigated. SSR was expressed as the ratio of wax esters/[cholesterol+cholesterol esters] (WE/[C+CE]) and the amount of sebaceous lipids (squalene, triacylglycerol and wax esters). Topical spironolactone 5% gel applied to the right cheeks of the subjects produced a significant reduction in the SSR at 12 weeks (4 weeks after termination of application), but not at 8 weeks (the end of treatment). Untreated "control" areas (the left cheeks of the subjects) showed no significant change during the study. None of the subjects experienced skin rash or signs of local irritation. This results suggests that topical spironolactone may be effective in the treatment of acne patients with high SSR.






QUOTE
There was an interesting discussion which you were involved in, but I can't seem to find it. All I remember is it discussed the different PPARs and how any ppar agonist would stimulate the oil glands. (Something about fish oil helping others will making others worse) I think the delta receptor was key in inflammation..I forgot.


from what i remember is was the ppar alpha receptor that was the (supposed) key to
shutting down the sebaceous glands, one study says it increased it and one study says it reduced it, obviously there is much work to be done in this area but its pretty well documented that ppar ligands have the ability to influence sebaceous glands lipogenesis.

QUOTE
So basically I think androgen receptors and PPARs are some how related.


anything is possible, my thoughts are that just somehow the skin becomes very sensitive to any fluctuations in testosterone or any growth hormones like igf-1, but that testosterone and igf-1 levels are not a problem, and this is relatively true given the studies ive read about how testoterone levels are pretty normal in people with acne.

QUOTE
In the study I posted, it looks like resveratrol corrects hyperkeratinization.


yes i saw that, thing is it would be nice if this study was on pub med for everyone to see, everyone as in researchers because, because if they cant find it, it puts a choke in the peer reveiwing process thats integral to the furthering of the science.

QUOTE
What puzzles me is that resveratrol, is suppose to support testosterone and preventing it from aromatizing to estrogen. Would'nt that mean for DHT and thus more oil and acne?


so are you saying that it is preserving testosterone? perhaps that could make acne worse but i really dont know

Even though eicosanoid (made from fish oil) binds to these receptors, it still has the potential to stimulate sebaceous glands.

QUOTE
Another thought..maybe the reason why we don't see the benefits of these supplements that are suppose to inhibit these receptors is because we don't get enough of it into our bloodstream. Got me thinking about accutane, and how its basically a mega overdose of 13 cis retinoic acid. We certainily would'nt see those effects by taking standard doses of vitamin A.


Yes i agree with that concept, but just like accutane even low, long term doses can very effective, so maybe it could take up to a year or so to possibly correct it at such small doses, so i dont think any efforts will be wasted but if you are going to give something a good try, definitly take a good amount of it for at least a month you would have to notice some difference if it really was going to do something.
#1.critical nutritional issues- b12(three forms exist), Calcium(yogurt, cheese or calcium phosphate supps) and vitamin d(sun or supps not to exceed 1000 iu). heme iron-most absorbable from meat only, clams are high. these are the most difficult vitamins to get and absorb. All others or about the same in difficulty in absorption. MAgnesium in our food supply is generally low as well, try natural calm supps.
#2 Fats- monounsaturated should dominate(olives), followed by polyunsaturated plant sources(nuts) but not if you have acne. the health benefits of fish oil and fish are controversial and i dont consume them due to mercury contamination and immune supression avoid processed fats if possible.
#3 Protein/amino acids- dairy and eggs best sources for tryptophan and methionine which convert to powerful antioxidants melatonin and glutathione.
#4 Carotenoids- alpha- beta carotene, beta cryptoxanthin, lutein zeaxanthin, astaxanthin. these are vital to human nutrition, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, chili pepper and cayenne pepper are the best sources.
#5 Regularity-BM at least once a day, Moist, large stools, 1 piece ideal, no maldigestion, no floating stools indicative of maldigested fat. HOW- insoluble fiber- wheat and cooked vegetables. soluble fiber-oats/ good bacteria ferment soluble fiber making short chain fatty acids that inhibit pathogens.
#6 Circadian cycles-Light, get up with the sun, and expose your entire body to it. darkness-melatonin is released upon the sensing of absolute darkness. sleep in a pitch black room, try to ensure 10 hours total darkness, wear sunglasses before bed. do not eat too late at night.
#7 Desirable physiological states(positive moods/emotions) do precisely what you like and what feels good to you, but not regardless of consequences, just from a perspective that, you own your life, and can determine precisely what you do with it and need not answer or ask of permission from anyone,achieving maximum autonomy and self government.

#9 ~ Dee

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Posted 11 August 2007 - 12:17 AM

Interesting.. This is silly, but I used to use a product for razorburn (I used it bikini line) that I'd grab up from Rite Aid with Resveratrol, & Bromelain in it as main ingredients. It worked well, but it was made for guys, for all I could tell. Can't recall the name of it right now.
... for doubt and secrecy are the lure of lures, and no new horror can be more terrible than the daily torture of the commonplace. - H.P. Lovecraft
"You people are a bunch of fickle mushheads!" -Mayor Quimby

#10 thetruth24

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Posted 11 August 2007 - 12:21 AM

I got another study on topical Spiro:
http://www.freepaten...om/4543351.html

Dang, so we don't know exactly how these PPARs work! I know people mentioned agonists to bind to these receptors, but are there any known antagonist that "shuts" them down?

True, I read a study where acne patients had normal levels of testosterone. Another study showed that, although they have regular test levels, they have higher levels in the local area of the sebaceous glands.

I'm not sure if its preserving the testosterone or what. The post right after mine. (second one) is taken from t.nations site. I know its kind of a long read, but it explains what resveratrol actually does. I am currently taking 100mg. I hope this dosage isn't enough to up my test and screw up my hormones.

Wait, isnt linoleic acid a omega 6 acid? I read somewhere that people actually take it to reduce sebum and it is an active ingredient it Clearogen's lotion, which is suppose to supress oil? Hmmm I maybe wrong though. I'm kinda confused now. Aren't eicosanoids made from Omega 3, which is suppose to be good for you? Omega 3 SHOULD be able to reduce you're sebum since it binds to the PPARs. But like you said, the activation and activity of these receptors are still iffy. You did mention though that you had good results with fish oil.

Hmm, thats too bad you didn't have success with saw palmetto. If it is and l4 blocker, then it should help with acne, since it does have the ability to stimualte the sebaceous glands. Through my research, I have learned that DHT inhibitors like dutasteride, finasteride, and SP tend to make peoples acne worse , while acutally anti androgens work very well.

What are you currently doing for your skin, if you don't mind me asking!

Thanks for the discussion! It really is interesting to explore these ideas. I'm going to be off to college in the fall and am considering to take classes that involve all this stuff

#11 Listener

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Posted 11 August 2007 - 10:28 AM

QUOTE(thetruth24 @ Aug 11 2007, 12:21 AM) View Post
Thanks for the discussion! It really is interesting to explore these ideas.


Here, Here!

All very interesting.

Regarding eicosanoids:
There's supposed to be good and bad eicosanoids. Referred to as super-hormones because they control lots of other hormones in the body. Omega 3 is meant to convert to good eicosanoids and insulin is meant to cause production of bad eicosanoids: 'A diet consisting of a high amount of carbohydrates - especially fast carbohydrates - creates too much insulin in the body. This means that there will be an over-production of bad eicosanoids.' http://www.omega-3.s...icosanoids.html

This ties into what Autonomous was saying about igf-1 etc... and also ties into my own experience of high insulin/glycemic load foods increasing acne.

Here's a cool table from http://www.enerzona....stry_53_.sphtml
"Good" eicosanoids "Bad" eicosanoids
they inhibit platelet aggregation they promote platelet aggregation
they promote vasodilation of blood vesserls they promote vasoconstriction of blood vessels
they reduce pain they increase pain
they diminish cellular proliferation they stimulate cellular proliferation
they improve immune system efficiency they depress the immune systen
they improve cerebral function they degrade cerebral function
they combat inflammation they promote inflammation

As you can see it would appear those bastard eicosanoids really are governing many factors which would lead to acne. Namely the inflammation and the cellular proliferation.

Also on that site 'All the "bad" eicosanoids are derived from arachidonic acid (AA), a long-chain omega 6 fatty acid.' and 'For the production of more "good" eicosanoids there must be an abundance of omega 3, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), which is found in fish oil and inhibits the production of AA.'
and lastly 'high insulin levels, which can have an influence on the enzyme delta 5 desaturase, leading to the production of AA, should be avoided.'


So it's a long complex process intertwined with many things as we've seen but have you got any opinions on at which point in the chain it's gone faulty?
Does our body not produce good eicosanoids as plentifully from the same quantity of omega 3? Is it because we are insulin resistant? Is it something to do with our bodies being more sensitive to bad eicosanoids.


Let's keep the discussion rolling!


#12 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 11 August 2007 - 02:43 PM

QUOTE
and lastly 'high insulin levels, which can have an influence on the enzyme delta 5 desaturase, leading to the production of AA, should be avoided.'



hmm,wasnt aware of this.



one thing you should be aware of is that eicosanoids arent the only ppar ligands, phytanic acid from chlorophyll is as well.

Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2005 Nov 18;337(2):440-5. Epub 2005 Sep 21. Links
Phytol directly activates peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha (PPARalpha) and regulates gene expression involved in lipid metabolism in PPARalpha-expressing HepG2 hepatocytes.Goto T, Takahashi N, Kato S, Egawa K, Ebisu S, Moriyama T, Fushiki T, Kawada T.
Laboratory of Molecular Function of Food, Division of Food Science and Biotechnology, Graduate School of Agriculture, Kyoto University, Uji, Japan.

The peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor (PPAR) is one of the indispensable transcription factors for regulating lipid metabolism in various tissues. In our screening for natural compounds that activate PPAR using luciferase assays, a branched-carbon-chain alcohol (a component of chlorophylls), phytol, has been identified as a PPARalpha-specific activator. Phytol induced the increase in PPARalpha-dependent luciferase activity and the degree of in vitro binding of a coactivator, SRC-1, to GST-PPARalpha. Moreover, the addition of phytol upregulated the expression of PPARalpha-target genes at both mRNA and protein levels in PPARalpha-expressing HepG2 hepatocytes. These findings indicate that phytol is functional as a PPARalpha ligand and that it stimulates the expression of PPARalpha-target genes in intact cells. Because PPARalpha activation enhances circulating lipid clearance, phytol may be important in managing abnormalities in lipid metabolism.



also you should be aware that there are genetic markers in people with acne in relation to lipid metabolism

The influence of genetics and environmental factors in the pathogenesis of acne: a twin study of acne in women.Bataille V, Snieder H, MacGregor AJ, Sasieni P, Spector TD.
Twin Research and Genetic Epidemiology Unit, St Thomas' Hospital, London, UK. vbataille@twin-research.ac.uk

Acne is common and often leads to significant psychologic and physical morbidity. From clinical experience, acne appears to run in families; however, very few studies have investigated the genetic basis of this very common skin disease. A large twin study based on 458 pairs of monozygotic and 1099 pairs of dizygotic twins, all women with a mean age of 46 y was performed to investigate the relative contribution of genetic and environmental factors on the liability to acne. In addition, potential risk factors were assessed in twins with and without acne in a nested cross-sectional design. Fourteen percent of the twins reported a history of acne. Genetic modeling using acne scores showed that 81% (95% confidence interval 73-87%) of the variance of the disease was attributable to additive genetic effects. The remaining 19% was attributed to unique (i.e., unshared) environmental factors. Of the potential risk factors tested in 400 acne twins and 2414 unaffected twins, only apolipoprotein A1 serum levels were significantly lower in acne twins even after adjusting for age and weight. Family history of acne was also significantly associated with an increased risk. No significant differences were found between acne twins and nonacne twins for weight, body mass index, height, birth weight, hair thinning, reproductive factors as well as cholesterol, triglycerides, high-density lipoprotein, and glucose levels. The lower serum levels of apolipoprotein A1 in acne twins were also confirmed when analyzing acne discordant twin pairs. The evidence of a major genetic influence on acne should stimulate the search for potential genes that may lead to new therapeutic approaches.

so what does it mean to have lower apolipoprotein a1? this lipoprotein is a part of hdl cholesterol and is manufactured by the liver to collect excess blood cholesterol and shuttle it back to the liver to be excreted through the bowels, otherwise it just hangs around in the body. Its a very interesting correlation but what it means exactly i dont know.
its interesting to see that ppar alpha can enhance lipid clearance and that ppar alpha is also seen to have a major role in sebaceous gland lipogenesis supposedly suppressing it, this information in a way seems to point to ppar alpha as still playing a major role in acne for its dual ability to influence both abnormal lipid metabolism and sebaceaous gland lipogenesis.

Accutane also has the ability to do both as well. im not sure how well these studies support all this though

1: Dermatologica. 1986;172(3):154-9.Links
Isotretinoin versus minocycline in cystic acne: a study of lipid metabolism.Pigatto PD, Finzi AF, Altomare GF, Polenghi MM, Vergani C, Vigotti G.
We have recently reported that patients with severe nodular cystic acne have much lower levels of HDL-cholesterol, apolipoprotein A and hepatic lipoprotein lipase than healthy controls or subjects with acne vulgaris. Since isotretinoin is very effective in the treatment of the nodular cystic acne but has been shown to increase blood lipid levels, we decided to compare its clinical effectiveness and its effects on lipid metabolism with those of minocycline in patients with nodular cystic acne. After 20 weeks, the number and mean diameter of the cysts were definitely decreased in both groups, but the improvement was more striking in the isotretinoin-treated group. At the end of the treatment, the HDL-C and hepatic lipoprotein lipase levels in this group were increased toward normal, but not in the minocycline-treated group. Our study showed a significant remission in the acne of patients treated with isotretinoin but not in that of the minocycline-treated patients. Furthermore isotretinoin can also correct the altered lipid metabolism in these patients.


this one is also supportive

1: Dermatologica. 1985;171(4):243-6.Links
Lipoprotein metabolism and lipoprotein lipase in severe cystic acne.Pigatto P, Altomare GF, Negri M, Finzi AF, Vigotti G, Vergani C.
In severe cystic acne we found low levels of high density lipoprotein-cholesterol (HDL-C) and apolipoprotein A (Apo-A) in the presence of normal total lipids. In a larger number of patients, we always observed significantly lower levels of HDL-C and Apo-A than in either age-matched controls or subjects with acne vulgaris. Since lipoprotein lipase is one major determinant of HDL concentration, we assayed the lipase activity in liver and extra-hepatic tissues by the method of Krauss et al. There was highly significant less total and hepatic lipase activity than in age-matched controls. HDL distribution was examined by zonal ultracentrifugation and a decrease in the HDL2 subclass was discovered. Since HDL are inversely correlated to atherosclerosis, cystic acne is one risk factor for atherosclerosis. The linkage between low HDL levels and severe cystic acne should be further investigated.



so may thoughts as of lately have been whether or not a lack of phytanic acid in the diet can be a risk factor for acne. a strong case for eating green food like spinach and such.
#1.critical nutritional issues- b12(three forms exist), Calcium(yogurt, cheese or calcium phosphate supps) and vitamin d(sun or supps not to exceed 1000 iu). heme iron-most absorbable from meat only, clams are high. these are the most difficult vitamins to get and absorb. All others or about the same in difficulty in absorption. MAgnesium in our food supply is generally low as well, try natural calm supps.
#2 Fats- monounsaturated should dominate(olives), followed by polyunsaturated plant sources(nuts) but not if you have acne. the health benefits of fish oil and fish are controversial and i dont consume them due to mercury contamination and immune supression avoid processed fats if possible.
#3 Protein/amino acids- dairy and eggs best sources for tryptophan and methionine which convert to powerful antioxidants melatonin and glutathione.
#4 Carotenoids- alpha- beta carotene, beta cryptoxanthin, lutein zeaxanthin, astaxanthin. these are vital to human nutrition, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, chili pepper and cayenne pepper are the best sources.
#5 Regularity-BM at least once a day, Moist, large stools, 1 piece ideal, no maldigestion, no floating stools indicative of maldigested fat. HOW- insoluble fiber- wheat and cooked vegetables. soluble fiber-oats/ good bacteria ferment soluble fiber making short chain fatty acids that inhibit pathogens.
#6 Circadian cycles-Light, get up with the sun, and expose your entire body to it. darkness-melatonin is released upon the sensing of absolute darkness. sleep in a pitch black room, try to ensure 10 hours total darkness, wear sunglasses before bed. do not eat too late at night.
#7 Desirable physiological states(positive moods/emotions) do precisely what you like and what feels good to you, but not regardless of consequences, just from a perspective that, you own your life, and can determine precisely what you do with it and need not answer or ask of permission from anyone,achieving maximum autonomy and self government.

#13 Listener

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 06:05 AM

V.interesting.

Maybe the fact that we aren't eating leaves etc.. that most other herbivores do, means we aren't getting enough chlorophyll which used to be a staple part of the early human's diet..?

Perhaps one of a few factors in all this.

It would appear then that something like insulin resistance wouldn't give you acne unless you already have that predisposition to acne due to.... i suppose it appears it is fault lipid metabolism.

One thing i have yet to learn is what role the liver plays in all of this.


#14 Listener

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 08:42 AM

Also, could you give this little desripition of sesamin a read through: http://www.bodybuild...re/san/ses.html

Sure you can make clearer sense of how it connects to acne than i can. I've heard of a lot of anecdotal claims that it definitely helped people with acne by a noticeable amount.


#15 thetruth24

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 11:11 AM

Hey Guys!

Sorry I haven't gotten into it yet! I've been real busy and I needa go to work today. Ill definitely get to it after though

#16 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 02:49 PM

QUOTE(Listener @ Aug 12 2007, 09:42 AM) View Post
Also, could you give this little desripition of sesamin a read through: http://www.bodybuild...re/san/ses.html

Sure you can make clearer sense of how it connects to acne than i can. I've heard of a lot of anecdotal claims that it definitely helped people with acne by a noticeable amount.



oh yea! sesamin also activates ppar alpha, forgot about that one as well.

where did you read these claims?
#1.critical nutritional issues- b12(three forms exist), Calcium(yogurt, cheese or calcium phosphate supps) and vitamin d(sun or supps not to exceed 1000 iu). heme iron-most absorbable from meat only, clams are high. these are the most difficult vitamins to get and absorb. All others or about the same in difficulty in absorption. MAgnesium in our food supply is generally low as well, try natural calm supps.
#2 Fats- monounsaturated should dominate(olives), followed by polyunsaturated plant sources(nuts) but not if you have acne. the health benefits of fish oil and fish are controversial and i dont consume them due to mercury contamination and immune supression avoid processed fats if possible.
#3 Protein/amino acids- dairy and eggs best sources for tryptophan and methionine which convert to powerful antioxidants melatonin and glutathione.
#4 Carotenoids- alpha- beta carotene, beta cryptoxanthin, lutein zeaxanthin, astaxanthin. these are vital to human nutrition, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, chili pepper and cayenne pepper are the best sources.
#5 Regularity-BM at least once a day, Moist, large stools, 1 piece ideal, no maldigestion, no floating stools indicative of maldigested fat. HOW- insoluble fiber- wheat and cooked vegetables. soluble fiber-oats/ good bacteria ferment soluble fiber making short chain fatty acids that inhibit pathogens.
#6 Circadian cycles-Light, get up with the sun, and expose your entire body to it. darkness-melatonin is released upon the sensing of absolute darkness. sleep in a pitch black room, try to ensure 10 hours total darkness, wear sunglasses before bed. do not eat too late at night.
#7 Desirable physiological states(positive moods/emotions) do precisely what you like and what feels good to you, but not regardless of consequences, just from a perspective that, you own your life, and can determine precisely what you do with it and need not answer or ask of permission from anyone,achieving maximum autonomy and self government.

#17 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 03:30 PM

QUOTE
What are you currently doing for your skin, if you don't mind me asking!


using tretinoin 2 hours before bed
diacneal, finacea or triaz(BP) at night. diacneal is the one where i can see a difference in one night this stuff really is effective.

diet is alot of oatmeal(nature valley granola bars) for its cholesterol lowering effects, low to no sugar, spinach everyday for cholorophyll, generally low fat diet high protein.

supplements are fish oil 4 pills a day, slow release niacin for lower ldl and higher hdl, skullcap extract or berberine for its effects on cholesterol.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

and its also been shown to affect sebum production

Effect of some alkaloids, flavonoids and triterpenoids, contents of Japanese-Chinese traditional herbal medicines, on the lipogenesis of sebaceous glands.Seki T, Morohashi M.
Department of Dermatology, Toyama Medical and Pharmaceutical University, Japan.

The effects of some alkaloids and flavonoids, which are major ingredients in some of the Japanese Kampoh drugs (Japanese-Chinese traditional herbal medicines) experientially known to be efficacious for the treatment of acne vulgaris, on the lipogenesis in the sebaceous glands of the hamster ear, an excellent animal model for the human sebaceous gland, were studied. Lipogenesis was assayed by determining 14C incorporation into sebaceous lipids extracted from the sebaceous glands which were preincubated with 14C-acetate. We found that the lipogenesis in the hamster sebaceous glands was suppressed 63 and 54% by 10(-4) M berberine (an alkaloid) and wogonin (a flavonoid), respectively. We suggest that the therapeutic effects of some Japanese Kampoh drugs experimentally used for acne vulgaris could be due to inhibition of lipogenesis by their active ingredients such as berberine and wogonin.

this regimen seems to be working quite well, im gonna call my doc on monday and get the new differin .3 to replace tretinoin.
#1.critical nutritional issues- b12(three forms exist), Calcium(yogurt, cheese or calcium phosphate supps) and vitamin d(sun or supps not to exceed 1000 iu). heme iron-most absorbable from meat only, clams are high. these are the most difficult vitamins to get and absorb. All others or about the same in difficulty in absorption. MAgnesium in our food supply is generally low as well, try natural calm supps.
#2 Fats- monounsaturated should dominate(olives), followed by polyunsaturated plant sources(nuts) but not if you have acne. the health benefits of fish oil and fish are controversial and i dont consume them due to mercury contamination and immune supression avoid processed fats if possible.
#3 Protein/amino acids- dairy and eggs best sources for tryptophan and methionine which convert to powerful antioxidants melatonin and glutathione.
#4 Carotenoids- alpha- beta carotene, beta cryptoxanthin, lutein zeaxanthin, astaxanthin. these are vital to human nutrition, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, chili pepper and cayenne pepper are the best sources.
#5 Regularity-BM at least once a day, Moist, large stools, 1 piece ideal, no maldigestion, no floating stools indicative of maldigested fat. HOW- insoluble fiber- wheat and cooked vegetables. soluble fiber-oats/ good bacteria ferment soluble fiber making short chain fatty acids that inhibit pathogens.
#6 Circadian cycles-Light, get up with the sun, and expose your entire body to it. darkness-melatonin is released upon the sensing of absolute darkness. sleep in a pitch black room, try to ensure 10 hours total darkness, wear sunglasses before bed. do not eat too late at night.
#7 Desirable physiological states(positive moods/emotions) do precisely what you like and what feels good to you, but not regardless of consequences, just from a perspective that, you own your life, and can determine precisely what you do with it and need not answer or ask of permission from anyone,achieving maximum autonomy and self government.

#18 thetruth24

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 08:55 PM

Listener,

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I don't think we, in general, take enough fish oil to acutally make a difference. For the most part of our lives, we've eaten really unhealthy, with all those processed foods, which promote the "bad" type. Simply taking a couple of fish oil pills a day is no where near enough to promote these good eicosanoids in helping our acne.

Like I mentioned before, its like Accutane. That is a mega dose of cis retinoic acid. Simply adding a vitamin A supplement would not be enough to make a difference.



#19 thetruth24

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 09:07 PM

Autonomous, sweet research!

The chlorophyll idea is very interesting! I know its found in a lot of leafy greens, those which most of us lack.

The thing is, we don't know for sure exactly how these receptors work. I read that there are conflicting studies where certain receptors, when activated or binded to, either increase or decrease sebum.

If you guys check out my topic "Topical Spirololactone, there is pretty good information about PPARs and androgens. Basically, Jemini stated that DHT is not a big culprit of acne. It is the PPARs and maybe some DHT which causes excessive sebum. But wait, women who take anti androgens have great success! So that must mean androgens play a role in acne. Well sort of, PPARs apparently create dimers by binding with other receptors, possibly the androgen receptors. So through hormonal therapy, we are basically shutting down these androgen receptors, leaving the PPARs unable to bind to them.

I also thought you're other studies were interesting. So basically, you're theory is that the ALPHA receptor is responsible for the creation of apolipoprotein a1? I remember you stating that acne maybe a way of our bodies saving us from a heart attack. Accutane suppresses these glands, which is why our enzymes or something go up. It makes really good sense. The only thing is that I can't understand why then, would acne only start up at puberty, and for most people, end after it??

#20 AutonomousOne1980

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 09:11 PM

QUOTE(thetruth24 @ Aug 12 2007, 09:55 PM) View Post
Listener,

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I don't think we, in general, take enough fish oil to acutally make a difference. For the most part of our lives, we've eaten really unhealthy, with all those processed foods, which promote the "bad" type. Simply taking a couple of fish oil pills a day is no where near enough to promote these good eicosanoids in helping our acne.

Like I mentioned before, its like Accutane. That is a mega dose of cis retinoic acid. Simply adding a vitamin A supplement would not be enough to make a difference.



I thought the same exact thing so i gave it a shot, it worked really well for about a month, i was astonished, then the effects leveled out. i took as much as 20 pills a day for about a month then would gradually lower it, after a while i correllated my severely hard lumps that werent inflamed with the high doses i was taking, it may not have been the direct cause but their was a strong correllation so im now just taking 4 pills a day and rarely do i get those hard lumps anymore.

So since feb 20th ive been taking fish oil, so a solid 5 months almost six months taking very high doses for about half the time, so from my experiance hopefully there is something to learn. Perhaps the initial clearing was partly a placebo and when the placebo wore off things leveled out, but i will take fish oil for the rest of my life thats for sure, its helped my face alot.
#1.critical nutritional issues- b12(three forms exist), Calcium(yogurt, cheese or calcium phosphate supps) and vitamin d(sun or supps not to exceed 1000 iu). heme iron-most absorbable from meat only, clams are high. these are the most difficult vitamins to get and absorb. All others or about the same in difficulty in absorption. MAgnesium in our food supply is generally low as well, try natural calm supps.
#2 Fats- monounsaturated should dominate(olives), followed by polyunsaturated plant sources(nuts) but not if you have acne. the health benefits of fish oil and fish are controversial and i dont consume them due to mercury contamination and immune supression avoid processed fats if possible.
#3 Protein/amino acids- dairy and eggs best sources for tryptophan and methionine which convert to powerful antioxidants melatonin and glutathione.
#4 Carotenoids- alpha- beta carotene, beta cryptoxanthin, lutein zeaxanthin, astaxanthin. these are vital to human nutrition, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, chili pepper and cayenne pepper are the best sources.
#5 Regularity-BM at least once a day, Moist, large stools, 1 piece ideal, no maldigestion, no floating stools indicative of maldigested fat. HOW- insoluble fiber- wheat and cooked vegetables. soluble fiber-oats/ good bacteria ferment soluble fiber making short chain fatty acids that inhibit pathogens.
#6 Circadian cycles-Light, get up with the sun, and expose your entire body to it. darkness-melatonin is released upon the sensing of absolute darkness. sleep in a pitch black room, try to ensure 10 hours total darkness, wear sunglasses before bed. do not eat too late at night.
#7 Desirable physiological states(positive moods/emotions) do precisely what you like and what feels good to you, but not regardless of consequences, just from a perspective that, you own your life, and can determine precisely what you do with it and need not answer or ask of permission from anyone,achieving maximum autonomy and self government.