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Why are you a vegan or vegetarian?

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#21 notadoctor

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 11:32 AM

QUOTE(Apple_Blossem @ May 3 2007, 09:49 AM) View Post
The majority of omnivores are easily identified in American society. They tend to consist of:


- Pudgy, overweight, fat, or obese body types (after the age of 25)
- Base their diet on fries, donuts, white bread & pastas, candy, junk food and, of course, meat as the other half of their meal.
- "Aged" skin: enlarged pores, dehydrated skin from a diet of alcohol on weekends, breathing second-hand smoke at bars and picking up McDonalds and Burger King meals several times a week (they wont set any health boundary for themselves).
- Might have muscle mass, but it is hidden underneat their fat.
- Have some of the worst cases of cystic acne (they really dont care what they're eating) (the opposite of being too picky).
- After 50, 60% have some form of colon cancer from overeating processed meat
- 80% tend to die from preventable diseases such as heart disease or Type II diabetes
- Claim they've never had a salad OR only eat salad or veggies on special occasions.
- Best of all: Stereotype themselves by their own ignorance: Insist that without meat, they will die of malnutrition within a few months or live sickly lives.

Overall, I think meat-eaters are lazy and really need to do some research. Case closed. smile.gif


---Case Re-opened---

Most of the things you mentioned have nothing to do with meat-eating, eating meat is different than the american stereotype. I do agree that alot of people in America are like that, but that has nothing to do with eating meat. I think that vegetarians are either highly hypocritical or dangerously ignorant. Highly hypocritical if they don't eat meat, and think that they are helping the environment or animals, or think that they are much healthier because of their avoidance of eating meat. Dangerously ignorant if they don't know that their grain eating promotes more farmers to farm grains which cause numerous environmental problems (won't go into on this board, there is way too much to explain, read Omnivore's Dilemma if you want to learn about it), and also ignorant to the fact that animals need predators, and other things that are explained above. I dont feel like re-explaining.

There really is not much reason to be a vegan or vegetarian, maybe if you have some unique gastrointestinal problems or some other medical reason, even then in most cases it probably is not so much the meat causing your problems, but the other things that you are eating.

According to Loren Cordain, he has had many people with IBS send him letters saying that they cured their's with the Paleo Diet. So it may not be the meat, but something else. I am not saying that there are not medical conditions where meat is bad, just that for most of them, meat is not the problem.

#22 Apple_Blossem

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 11:40 AM

Okie day, I realize you are trying to tell us (vegetarians) that we are on a very unhealthy and unnutritious diet...

Could you please tell us exactly what nutrients are missing from a veggie diet?

Because I did two years of research beforehand. tongue.gif So I'm very interested in your research smile.gif.

#23 notadoctor

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 12:13 PM

I am not saying that you yourself are necessarily unhealthy, I am saying that being a vegetarian is no more healthy than eating meat. It does not mean that all meat eaters are more healthy than non-meat eaters, or the other way around. It just means that meat is one factor among many that shape your health, and it is a vegetarian falsehood that says that meat is unhealthy. Meat itself is not causing health problems, high saturated fat could be, or trans-fats, or lots of refined grains, like white rice and white flour, but meat in and of itself is not the unhealthy part.

#24 Apple_Blossem

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 12:14 PM

How much meat do you advocate is healthy for a diet? Per day/week/month/year etc

#25 Apple_Blossem

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 12:18 PM

LOL, I'm trying to find the "nut" who is wandering around this board saying vegetarians are stupid and are going to be very unhealthy on this diet.

I think its Necromancer, lol.

I think its silly to rant and rave about a diet, but never give any clear details about why it is an unhealthy diet, lol. I'm very interested in what nutrients he is referring to in general smile.gif.

#26 notadoctor

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 12:34 PM

QUOTE(Apple_Blossem @ May 3 2007, 01:14 PM) View Post
How much meat do you advocate is healthy for a diet? Per day/week/month/year etc



QUOTE(Apple_Blossem @ May 3 2007, 01:18 PM) View Post
I think its silly to rant and rave about a diet, but never give any clear details about why it is an unhealthy diet, lol.


I am not really sure how much meat people should have, I think it depends on the person, but even then I can't say for sure, I am not an expert on it, and have not studied the amounts each person should have.

I also think it is silly to rant and rave about a diet without giving the whole picture. But just to inform you, that is what many pro-veg sites do. They never explain the significance that avoiding meat has on non-domestic animals, or the other environmental factors that come from a society avoiding meat. Atkins is a very similar idea, does not really explain the reason behind avoiding carbs and in doing so people blindly avoid all carbs, many people do not get all of the nutrients they need from fruits and veggies because they potentially have carbs.

#27 Vicereine

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 12:42 PM

Well I read a fitness book by Michael Thurmond and he mentioned eating only 2-4 ounces of meat (or other protein) per meal...take from that what you will tongue.gif

#28 ChocolateChip

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 01:41 PM

Its been all over the BBC and CNN News that 90% of nutrionalists and doctors agree that no more than two servings of meat (1 serving = 3 ounces of meat) should be eaten per week. Studies find that for those who eat it more often than that have an 80% increase of heart disease when people eat more than that and 60% rise in colon cancer.

Necromancer - Instead of always deriding a vegetarian diet and negatively labeling anyone who says they are vegetarian, why not help people by posting facts/info? Its kind of cute, but I'd probably get tired of it after awhile if I were at the end of your gun barrel. Borrow a brain and start quoting facts/statistics if you are wanting to call people stupid. At least you'll contribute to conversations that way.

#29 notadoctor

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 02:03 PM

QUOTE(ChocolateChip @ May 3 2007, 02:41 PM) View Post
Its been all over the BBC and CNN News that all nutrionalists and doctors agree that no more than two servings of meat (1 serving = 3 ounces of meat) should be eaten per week. They have found a 80% increase of heart disease when people eat more than that and 60% rise in colon cancer.


This is not true, not all nutritionists and doctors agree. There are many nutrition experts that say that we need much more protein, it is in dispute, and that is why I am not really sure on what is the correct amount, I have not studied it, or seen information that meat itself is the cause of increased heart disease. People who eat a lot of meat tend to eat a lot of other shit that is bad for you too. Alot of people who eat meat eat it deep-fried or with deep-fried foods and/or high glycemic load foods

Correlation does not equal Causation. Unless it can seperate meat-eaters who eat no deep-fried foods or high glycemic load foods, from the ones that eat lots of deep-fried foods and lots of starchy and high glycemic load foods, and probably other factors, it does not prove that meat itself causes increase in colon cancer or heart disease.

I have read studies that say that eating meat is much healthier, that took into account the other foods that are typically eaten with meat. It is really hard to say how much meat a person should or should not eat. It also depends on people's age and sex. Females can not handle quite as much protein as men can, and children can not handle as much as either adult males or females, but that would be a lot of protein for anyone, and people are unlikely to ever eat that much protein without carbs or fat to help your liver better handle the nitrogen load.



#30 BigBeauty

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 02:35 PM

Different strokes for different folks. Perhaps some people have optimum health eating a lot of meat with less carbs while others are better off just the opposite. The reality is there are different primitive cultures with vastly different diets all with much greater health than most of us. It depends upon the environment they've adapted to. There are some generalized truths about nutrition that apply to all of us, but ultimately you have to find the balance that works for you although this can be easier said than done. Check out metabolic typing. A lot of people get too hung up on the fact that there isn't enough research on it yet and its diagnostic means aren't that great, but that's missing the point. Its underlying principles I think make a lot more sense than some one size fits all diet that no one can agree on and results in conflicting research.

#31 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 11:46 PM

It's a lot harder to plan the vegetarian meals to get the same nutrients as an omnivore diet (note I'm not saying that you personally find it hard after 2 years of research or that vegetarian diets are crap so don't get all thick headed). It's easier to eat a healthy omnivore diet the only problem is paying more for quality protein.

I got into an argument with someone here about incomplete proteins and how you can combine plant sources to get a complete protein meal. My argument that was for me to get the protein I need(soy is not an option), I would have to eat ungodly amounts of legumes and rice to get the proper amino acids. Plus the amino acid profiles in certain meats work with each other in the right ratios to get better results than if you just ate them separately. Don't get me started on the amount of fiber such a diet would have in it, including the other veggies I consume. I calculated it out to over 150grams a day. Not healthy.

Plus the amount fo protein you get in meat is around 80-90% whereas the bioavailability of most plants range from 20%-50% (Soy not included). Plus I'm not sure that you can go overboard on real freerange eggs or wild fish from good waters. You can probably have a lot of freerange beef or lamb and I know that wild game is very good for you.





#32 ChocolateChip

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 01:30 PM

I think there is no need to negatively label vegetarians or vegans like so many people freely do on this message board.

I dont think many people even realize how many vegetarians and vegans living out their lives right before our very eyes.

None of these people spend their entire day planning out their meals each day. Vegetarians and vegans have never had to "gorge" large amounts of vegetables and legumes to make sure they are getting perfect amounts of amino acids or other nutrients. They pretty much live their lives like anyone else.

Here's a quick summarization of vegetarian and vegans we all know:

Celebrities:

Kim Basinger
Bryan Adams VEGAN
Lenny Kravitz
Julia Stiles
Josh Hartnett
Liv Tyler
Michael J. Fox
Coretta Scott King
Jorja Fox (CSI)
Leonardo diCaprio
Leonard Nimoy
Vanessa Williams
Anne Hathaway (Princess Diaries)
David Duchovny
Pamela Anderson VEGAN
River Phoenix
James Cromwell (Babe)VEGAN
Candice Bergen
B.B. King
Hayley Mills
Sir Ian McKellen
Paul McCartney VEGAN
Julie Christie (Dr. Zhivalgo)
Alyssa Milano
Brigitte Bardot
Darryl Hannah
Gwyneth Paltrow
Jackie Chan
Alicia Silverstone VEGAN
Anthony Perkins (Psycho)
Woody Harelson
Jamie Lee Curtis (Halloween)
Richard Gere
Reese Witherspoon
Moby VEGAN
Christie Brinkley
Ricki Lake
Steve Martin (Commedian)
Billy Idol (singer)
Kate Bush (singer)
Ted Danson
William Shatner (StarTrek)
Lisa Kudrow (Friends)
John Lennon
Yoko Ono
Paul McCartney VEGAN
Linda McCartney
Heather Mills McCartney VEGAN
Ringo Starr
Barbara Bach
Chelsea Clinton
Don Mclean ("American Pie")
Keenan Ivory Wayens VEGAN
Peter Cushing
Benjamin Spock VEGAN
Jane Goodall
Fred Rogers (Mr. Rogers)
"Weird" Al Yankovic VEGAN
Marina Sirtis (Star Trek)
Mary Tyler Moore
Marilu Henner
Meredith Baxter
Bob Barker (The Price is Wrong)
Amy Ray (Indigo Girls)
Grace Slick
Steve Vai
Joan Baez (folk singer)
Paula Cole
George Harrison (Beatles)
Desmond Howard
Edwin Moses
Martina Navratilova
Oleg Casini
Oliver Stone (director)

Historical Figures:
Plato
Leonardo da Vinci
Mahatma Ghandi VEGAN
Ovid
Voltaire
Martin Luther
Socrates
Nikola Tesla
Henry Ford
Charles Darwin
Plutarch
Pythagorus
Thomas Edison
Henry David Thoreau
Sir Isaac Newton
Vincent Van Gogh
Susan B. Anthony
Zoraster
Louisa May Alcott
George Bernard Shaw
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Leo Tolstoy
Mark Twain
H.G.Wells
Mary Shelley
Milton
Henry Heimlich M.D
Siouxsie Sioux
Joe Jackson
Chrissie Hynde
Cathy Dennis
Diogenes
Albert Schweitzer
Percy Bysshe Shelley
Franz Kafka
Charlotte Bronte

Sports Athletes:
Bruce Lee
Killer Kowalski
Anthony Peeler (NBA)
Bill Walton (NBA)
Robert Parish (NBA)
Kathy Johnson (1980 Gymnast of the Year)
Bill Pearl (Bodybuilder)
Thomas Hellriegel (Ironman)
Dr. Ruth Heidrich (Ironwoman) VEGAN
Natascha Badman (Ironlady of Hawaii)
Silken Laumann (Olympic rower)
Anthony Peeler (NBA Grizzlies)
Bill Pearl (Bodybuilder, Mr America)
Dave Scott (5x Ironman Triathlon winner) VEGAN
Carl Lewis ( ten x Olympic winner) VEGAN


I dont think there is a major nutritional problem for vegetarians and vegans. I think people are making much ado about nothing smile.gif.

#33 notadoctor

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 05:26 PM

My point in making this article was not about the nutritional side so much, but about why you choose to be a vegetarian or vegan. You are not really helping animals was my point.

#34 TheBaron

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 05:26 PM

if your okay with eating jacked up, hormone infested MUSCLES, which I no longer believe even deserve the term animal because of the screwed up actions of modern mass commercial murder, then so be it. I find its sad that a human race as intelligent as ours, understanding that all mammals are capable of feeling every emotion that we as humans do, pumps these animals full of growth hormones until they're immobile slabs of meat. If your okay with commercial murder then go for it! boogie.gif



#35 Legend

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 05:45 PM

QUOTE(TheBaron @ May 4 2007, 06:26 PM) View Post
if your okay with eating jacked up, hormone infested MUSCLES, which I no longer believe even deserve the term animal because of the screwed up actions of modern mass commercial murder, then so be it. I find its sad that a human race as intelligent as ours, understanding that all mammals are capable of feeling every emotion that we as humans do, pumps these animals full of growth hormones until they're immobile slabs of meat. If your okay with commercial murder then go for it! boogie.gif


Your argument isn't very convincing.

Please provide scientific links defining these hormones, and scientific links demonstrating that they can be absorbed in the digestive system. And after you do that, please notify the scientific community that you can absorb insulin, testosterone, etc without injections, because that will be news to them.

Also, please demonstrate that insects, field mice, etc have inferior intelligence and consequently a right to life than say, fish. Why? Because you kill insects and animals all the time to grow crops.

#36 notadoctor

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 06:01 PM

QUOTE(TheBaron @ May 4 2007, 06:26 PM) View Post
if your okay with eating jacked up, hormone infested MUSCLES, which I no longer believe even deserve the term animal because of the screwed up actions of modern mass commercial murder, then so be it. I find its sad that a human race as intelligent as ours, understanding that all mammals are capable of feeling every emotion that we as humans do, pumps these animals full of growth hormones until they're immobile slabs of meat. If your okay with commercial murder then go for it! boogie.gif


Go back and read the rest of the thread, especially the first post, I am not going to repeat myself and waste time.

#37 cjb

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 12:25 AM

The celeb list convinced me. If Alyssa Milano is vegetarian, then I'm going to be one too.

#38 Ell-

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 07:20 AM

Factory farms are beyond cruel and the meat is unhealthy.

Organic free range raised meat is way too expensive for my wallet.



#39 Elsewhere

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 07:27 AM

My friend is a vegitarian and hopes to soon move to being a vegan. She does it for both health reasons and moral reasons. When she made her descision to become a vegitarian, she was informed and smart about it; making sure that her diet had a variety of foods and that she got all of her vitamins and nutrients. (i.e - not just eating tons of green lettuce salads). She is also a big animals rights activist and chose to give up meat because she was uncomfertable with the way many farms are run.


She is healthier for it, and I'm proud of her for having the ability to stick with it. She's not a jerk about it, doesn't preach, and doesn't mind if we order steaks when the hubby and I take her out to dinner.



#40 alternativista

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 08:27 AM

QUOTE(notadoctor @ May 4 2007, 07:01 PM) View Post
QUOTE(TheBaron @ May 4 2007, 06:26 PM) View Post
if your okay with eating jacked up, hormone infested MUSCLES, which I no longer believe even deserve the term animal because of the screwed up actions of modern mass commercial murder, then so be it. I find its sad that a human race as intelligent as ours, understanding that all mammals are capable of feeling every emotion that we as humans do, pumps these animals full of growth hormones until they're immobile slabs of meat. If your okay with commercial murder then go for it! boogie.gif


Go back and read the rest of the thread, especially the first post, I am not going to repeat myself and waste time.


Well, you wasted time by starting this thread in the first place since you obviously aren't actually interested in anyone's reasons. You just want to argue about them.

And regarding your first post, just because people support eating meat because of cruelty and doesn't mean they support the giant corporate farms shredding field mice harvesting grain too. That's a ridiculous argument. And cotton harvesters do it too, but I don't think we can stop wearing clothes. Besides, half of that grain goes to animal feed. Iowa has to import 90% of people food from other states.

Your argument does not negate the ethical reasoning for vegetarianism. And the truth is, almost all aspects of our agriculture in the U.S. today are pretty horrible.