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Why are you a vegan or vegetarian?

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Joris,

Oops! Meant to reply to you too. I'd just edit the post, but if you get e-mail alerts, you won't see the edit. About the 5% thing... Babies are intended to drink nothing but mother's milk for at least the first few months after they're born, which would mean they are only eating a diet of 5% protein during this stage of rapid growth. I think this is so interesting. :)


"...whatsoever things are true... honest... just... pure... lovely... or of good report;

if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

~Philippians 4:8~


Green smoothies/blended greens keep me clear! Click here

* Diet: Whole foods, mostly plant-based diet - lots of green vegetables, beans/legumes, nuts/seeds, fruit and occasional whole grains. If you suffer with acne, please see the diet tip section here.

* Skin-care Regimen: I recommend Paula's Choice (by Paula Begoun). For basic and effective, well-researched skin-care tips, click here.

* Supplements: Acidophilus, a safe, well-researched, food-based multi-vitamin, vitamin D3, and a pure DHA supplement.

* Lifestyle: Plenty of sleep, sweat-inducing exercise, sunshine, time each day to relax and de-stress, focusing on love, compassion and thankfulness, and keeping a clean, organized environment and life, helps to more easily maintain a healthy, happy life.

* Faith: If you're open to religion, having faith greatly helps with well-being and health. My faith is in Jesus Christ. I had to do much research regarding this decision, but it was worth it! It gives my life meaning, peace, and especially joy. If you have questions, PM me!


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Sorry to add yet another post in a row, but I just came across this article and found it very interesting to see that these two cultures, the Chinese and the Cretans, were eating mostly plant-based diets, but once they added in high amounts of animal products, their health changed: http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/obesi...se-now-fat.html


"...whatsoever things are true... honest... just... pure... lovely... or of good report;

if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

~Philippians 4:8~


Green smoothies/blended greens keep me clear! Click here

* Diet: Whole foods, mostly plant-based diet - lots of green vegetables, beans/legumes, nuts/seeds, fruit and occasional whole grains. If you suffer with acne, please see the diet tip section here.

* Skin-care Regimen: I recommend Paula's Choice (by Paula Begoun). For basic and effective, well-researched skin-care tips, click here.

* Supplements: Acidophilus, a safe, well-researched, food-based multi-vitamin, vitamin D3, and a pure DHA supplement.

* Lifestyle: Plenty of sleep, sweat-inducing exercise, sunshine, time each day to relax and de-stress, focusing on love, compassion and thankfulness, and keeping a clean, organized environment and life, helps to more easily maintain a healthy, happy life.

* Faith: If you're open to religion, having faith greatly helps with well-being and health. My faith is in Jesus Christ. I had to do much research regarding this decision, but it was worth it! It gives my life meaning, peace, and especially joy. If you have questions, PM me!


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Sorry to add yet another post in a row, but I just came across this article and found it very interesting to see that these two cultures, the Chinese and the Cretans, were eating mostly plant-based diets, but once they added in high amounts of animal products, their health changed: http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/obesi...se-now-fat.html

So, they increased their calorie intake by including more meat (which is usually accompanied by fat) and dairy products, which are also calorie dense. As a result, their weight has shot up. Don't blame the food when its clearly peoples lack of nutritional knowledge (basic calorie counting) that is the root cause!


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Eggs and dairy products have "negligible amounts."

"Few people know that the human brain is comprised of over 60% fat or that its most abundant fat (25%) is called docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)."

Source: http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T408829.html

Now that I think about it, before 1900, there were thousands of American pioneers who lived on the prairie their entire life, living on only land animals and plants, without access to seafood, eggs, dairy, and seaweed. So apparently the body is equipped for a diet without seafood.

It depends on what the animal ate. Pastured and wild animals have more omega 3 fats. it's the grain eating that changes their lipid profile in favor of omega 6s. Why do you think we are always talking about grain fed vs free range? Always. You have to have read a million posts on that by now.

Those pioneers ate meat, eggs and dairy from pastured or wild animals. And while they ate refined white wheat flour, they probably didn't eat as much as we do these days where people can't even fathom what to eat if they have to avoid sandwiches and cereal.

Also there's fish in the rivers and lakes in the prairie as well. Rainbow trout are one of the best sources of omega 3 fatty acids. And who said they ate an optimal diet?


Status: Clear after 30 years. Wow, I guess it's been 6 years, now.

[ Story: Severe Acne since I was 10. 10+ years of Dermatologists, Antibiotics, topicals and ACCUTANE did nothing. Discovered oranges triggered the worst of my cystic acne = about 70% improvement. Tried some nutrient supplements like B-complex with zinc and C, saw palmetto and a BHA like the aspirin mask = more improvement, a lot less oily. Then, Diet changes = Clear.

Regimen: Anti-inflammatory, nutrient dense, blood sugar stabilizing diet and supplements (for hormones, inflammation, aging, health). No soap or other cleanser except for hand washing! Water only or Oil cleanse. Aloe Vera mixed with niacinimide and a high linoleic acid oil for moisturizer and reduce pigmentation.

Diet effects acne in so many ways: hormone balance, inflammation, Insulin levels, digestion, allergies and intolerances, liver function, adrenal function, SHBG levels, sebum quality, cell function and turnover, nutrient deficiencies, body fat, etc. Basic advice: Eat, sleep, supplement and exercise like you are a diabetic. And eat real food!

For more information, see my Good Things for Acne thread *Moderator edit - Please refer to the board rules (see “Advertising/soliciting”, “Linking” and “Signatures”)*

When you eat stuff, Stuff Happens!


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1.) Protein

Animal protein is superior to plant ones. Let's just get that out there. If you disagree you're in denial or ignorant about the situation....

2.) Amino Acids

Hellooooo. Has everyone forgotten about Amino Acids? All 22 of them are necessary to health. Eating a plant-based diet makes it impossible to acquire all 22 of these. 8/9 of these we need to get from food because our bodies can not produce them naturally, these are called the Essential Amino Acids. (Note, the real number is sometimes argued to be anywhere from 8/9 to 11

Protein is manufactured in place by our bodies out of the amino acids. The body doesn't use the complete protein from animal protein. It breaks it down into the amino acids and uses those. All of which can be obtained from plants. Easily and in more than adequate amounts.

And the reason the numbers of essential amino acids vary is because we can convert some into others making those conditionally essential. Methionine/cysteine for example. Sulfur containing aminos found in abundance int he sulfur containing veggies like cabbage, broccoli, spinach, etc. And some people aren't as good as they should be at making some of the amino acids, probably due to nutritional deficiencies, from the lack of real, nutrient dense plant foods in the diet. Also making those amino acids conditionally essential. Taurine for example.


Status: Clear after 30 years. Wow, I guess it's been 6 years, now.

[ Story: Severe Acne since I was 10. 10+ years of Dermatologists, Antibiotics, topicals and ACCUTANE did nothing. Discovered oranges triggered the worst of my cystic acne = about 70% improvement. Tried some nutrient supplements like B-complex with zinc and C, saw palmetto and a BHA like the aspirin mask = more improvement, a lot less oily. Then, Diet changes = Clear.

Regimen: Anti-inflammatory, nutrient dense, blood sugar stabilizing diet and supplements (for hormones, inflammation, aging, health). No soap or other cleanser except for hand washing! Water only or Oil cleanse. Aloe Vera mixed with niacinimide and a high linoleic acid oil for moisturizer and reduce pigmentation.

Diet effects acne in so many ways: hormone balance, inflammation, Insulin levels, digestion, allergies and intolerances, liver function, adrenal function, SHBG levels, sebum quality, cell function and turnover, nutrient deficiencies, body fat, etc. Basic advice: Eat, sleep, supplement and exercise like you are a diabetic. And eat real food!

For more information, see my Good Things for Acne thread *Moderator edit - Please refer to the board rules (see “Advertising/soliciting”, “Linking” and “Signatures”)*

When you eat stuff, Stuff Happens!


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Sorry to add yet another post in a row, but I just came across this article and found it very interesting to see that these two cultures, the Chinese and the Cretans, were eating mostly plant-based diets, but once they added in high amounts of animal products, their health changed: http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/obesi...se-now-fat.html

So, they increased their calorie intake by including more meat (which is usually accompanied by fat) and dairy products, which are also calorie dense. As a result, their weight has shot up. Don't blame the food when its clearly peoples lack of nutritional knowledge (basic calorie counting) that is the root cause!

Ah, but who wants to count calories all day? One of the joys of a plant-based diet is getting to eat lots of food and not having to worry about how many calories you're taking in. It's a given I think that eating more meat and dairy products will lead to more calories, "especially" if people are wanting to eat the same amount of foods as they were eating on a plant-based diet. It they take your advice though and just eat these high caloric foods in moderation, they'll do alright.


"...whatsoever things are true... honest... just... pure... lovely... or of good report;

if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

~Philippians 4:8~


Green smoothies/blended greens keep me clear! Click here

* Diet: Whole foods, mostly plant-based diet - lots of green vegetables, beans/legumes, nuts/seeds, fruit and occasional whole grains. If you suffer with acne, please see the diet tip section here.

* Skin-care Regimen: I recommend Paula's Choice (by Paula Begoun). For basic and effective, well-researched skin-care tips, click here.

* Supplements: Acidophilus, a safe, well-researched, food-based multi-vitamin, vitamin D3, and a pure DHA supplement.

* Lifestyle: Plenty of sleep, sweat-inducing exercise, sunshine, time each day to relax and de-stress, focusing on love, compassion and thankfulness, and keeping a clean, organized environment and life, helps to more easily maintain a healthy, happy life.

* Faith: If you're open to religion, having faith greatly helps with well-being and health. My faith is in Jesus Christ. I had to do much research regarding this decision, but it was worth it! It gives my life meaning, peace, and especially joy. If you have questions, PM me!


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Sorry to add yet another post in a row, but I just came across this article and found it very interesting to see that these two cultures, the Chinese and the Cretans, were eating mostly plant-based diets, but once they added in high amounts of animal products, their health changed: http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/obesi...se-now-fat.html

So, they increased their calorie intake by including more meat (which is usually accompanied by fat) and dairy products, which are also calorie dense. As a result, their weight has shot up. Don't blame the food when its clearly peoples lack of nutritional knowledge (basic calorie counting) that is the root cause!

Ah, but who wants to count calories all day? One of the joys of a plant-based diet is getting to eat lots of food and not having to worry about how many calories you're taking in. It's a given I think that eating more meat and dairy products will lead to more calories, "especially" if people are wanting to eat the same amount of foods as they were eating on a plant-based diet. It they take your advice though and just eat these high caloric foods in moderation, they'll do alright.

Maybe so, but protein is by far the most satiating food you can eat. If your sticking to good quality protein and fat, with low GI food on the side, its almost guranteed you won't over eat due to the signals protein and fat gives off (assuming this person has an atleast somewhat normal functioning digestive system).

Mixing high carb content (more high gi, but still low as well) is a recipe for disaster when it it comes to fat gain as carbs make you more hungry, faster.


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Sorry to add yet another post in a row, but I just came across this article and found it very interesting to see that these two cultures, the Chinese and the Cretans, were eating mostly plant-based diets, but once they added in high amounts of animal products, their health changed: http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/obesi...se-now-fat.html

So, they increased their calorie intake by including more meat (which is usually accompanied by fat) and dairy products, which are also calorie dense. As a result, their weight has shot up. Don't blame the food when its clearly peoples lack of nutritional knowledge (basic calorie counting) that is the root cause!

Ah, but who wants to count calories all day? One of the joys of a plant-based diet is getting to eat lots of food and not having to worry about how many calories you're taking in. It's a given I think that eating more meat and dairy products will lead to more calories, "especially" if people are wanting to eat the same amount of foods as they were eating on a plant-based diet. It they take your advice though and just eat these high caloric foods in moderation, they'll do alright.

Maybe so, but protein is by far the most satiating food you can eat. If your sticking to good quality protein and fat, with low GI food on the side, its almost guranteed you won't over eat due to the signals protein and fat gives off (assuming this person has an atleast somewhat normal functioning digestive system).

Mixing high carb content (more high gi, but still low as well) is a recipe for disaster when it it comes to fat gain as carbs make you more hungry, faster.

Hmm... well, the Chinese and Cretans I think, due to their health problems that emerged, were still wanting to overeat despite eating animal proteins and fats? I think not wanting to overeat has a lot to do with how much nutrition your body is getting. If your body isn't getting enough nutrition, it will continue to have food cravings.


"...whatsoever things are true... honest... just... pure... lovely... or of good report;

if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

~Philippians 4:8~


Green smoothies/blended greens keep me clear! Click here

* Diet: Whole foods, mostly plant-based diet - lots of green vegetables, beans/legumes, nuts/seeds, fruit and occasional whole grains. If you suffer with acne, please see the diet tip section here.

* Skin-care Regimen: I recommend Paula's Choice (by Paula Begoun). For basic and effective, well-researched skin-care tips, click here.

* Supplements: Acidophilus, a safe, well-researched, food-based multi-vitamin, vitamin D3, and a pure DHA supplement.

* Lifestyle: Plenty of sleep, sweat-inducing exercise, sunshine, time each day to relax and de-stress, focusing on love, compassion and thankfulness, and keeping a clean, organized environment and life, helps to more easily maintain a healthy, happy life.

* Faith: If you're open to religion, having faith greatly helps with well-being and health. My faith is in Jesus Christ. I had to do much research regarding this decision, but it was worth it! It gives my life meaning, peace, and especially joy. If you have questions, PM me!


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joris,

So kind of you to post all those studies! I do think it's important to get DHA, and I like to get it through fish oil, though it is possible to get it through vegan sources. Other than that, all the study I've done points to fish not being necessary for health. I think a little fish here and there is perfectly fine though, but I'm picky of course about the "type" of fish I'd want to eat - certainly nothing farm-raised or from toxic waters, but that's a given. :)

I want to post the results of a new study because it is an interesting twist in the DHA levels of omnivores/vegans/vegetarians.

According to a study published recently in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, vegans -- who eat no fish or fish oil and eschew animal products -- have the same blood levels of Omega-3 as the heavy fish eaters, and HIGHER DHA levels.

"Despite having significantly lower intakes of EPA and DHA (from fish or fish oil), blood levels of EPA and DHA in vegans and vegetarians were approximately the same as regular fish eaters.

The results indicate that the bodies of vegetarians and other non-fish-eaters can respond to a lack of dietary omega-3 EPA and DHA by increasing their ability to make them from omega-3 ALA.

And as they said, "The implications of this study are that, if conversion of plant-based sources of n-3 PUFAs were ... sufficient to maintain health, it could have significant consequences for public health ..." (Welch AA et al. 2010)."

"The average EPA level in fish eaters was 64.7 micromoles per liter, compared with 57.1, 55.1, and 50 micromoles per liter for non-fish-eating meat-eaters, vegetarians, or vegans, respectively.

Meanwhile, the average DHA level in fish eaters was 271 micromoles per liter, compared with 241.3, 223.5, and 286.4 micromoles per liter for non-fish-eating meat-eaters, vegetarians, or vegans, respectively."

It would be interesting to watch the follow up studies. Although the results of this study could be a fluke, it might explain how there are many people who are raised vegan since birth, take no DHA supplements and live active lives without the DHA they supposedly need (actors Joaquin Pheonix, River Pheonix are two examples).

Here is a link to the vegetarian website which discusses the study. They provide a link at the bottom to the actual study:

* It seems they forgot some very critical information on the vegan site.

"Some important caveats apply to the new findings

The authors failed to mention three important points that give omega-3 EPA and DHA from fish an advantage not reflected in the higher-than-expected blood levels seen in non-fish-eaters.

First, American diets are extremely overloaded with omega-6 fats from common, cheap vegetable oils (corn, soy, safflower, sunflower, cottonseed, etc.) … which compete with omega-3s for absorption into our cells, and promote inflammation when consumed in excess.

People who don’t eat fish or take fish oil can make reasonable amounts of EPA and DHA from omega-3 ALA ... if they consume enough leafy greens, walnuts, flaxseed, and canola oil.

However – unless they also cut back on intake of omega-6 fats drastically – it’s much easier for vegetarians and other non-fish eaters to maintain a healthful ratio of omega-3s to omega-6s in their cells by consuming ample amounts of omega-3 EPA and DHA from fatty fish and/or fish oil.

Second, it is not clear that the “small” differences they observed wouldn’t be significant to people’s health status over a decade or more.

Third, they chose a blood level measure – micromoles per liter – that has not been well-studied as a measure of adequacy.

Instead, virtually all clinical researchers use the percent of omega-3s in red blood cell membranes (the “omega-3 index”) when they’re looking for links between omega-3 levels and heart health.

Thus, the meaning of someone’s micromoles of omega-3s per liter of blood is unclear when it comes to predicting people’s risk of developing heart disease.We would note that that’s a pretty big “if”.

Dr. Welch and her co-workers estimated the intakes of omega-3 ALA, EPA, and DHA among the participating people – fish-eaters and non-fish-eating meat-eaters, vegetarians, or vegans – and compared those intakes with their actual blood levels of ALA, EPA, and DHA.

Their results showed that omega-3 intakes were between 57 and 80 percent lower in the non-fish-eaters, compared with fish-eaters.

However, the differences in blood levels of DHA and EPA between fish eaters and non-fish-eaters were much smaller than those widely divergent intake levels would predict.

The average EPA level in fish eaters was 64.7 micromoles per liter, compared with 57.1, 55.1, and 50 micromoles per liter for non-fish-eating meat-eaters, vegetarians, or vegans, respectively.

Meanwhile, the average DHA level in fish eaters was 271 micromoles per liter, compared with 241.3, 223.5, and 286.4 micromoles per liter for non-fish-eating meat-eaters, vegetarians, or vegans, respectively.

While this study supports past research showing greater conversion of ALA to EPA+DHA in women versus men, and higher conversion rates in non-fish eaters compared to fish eaters, our three caveats remain:

1. The importance of omega-6 intake.

2.The unusual blood measure used.

3.The uncertain clinical significance of the seemingly small but possibly quite significant omega-3 blood-level differences seen between fish eaters and non-fish-eaters.

Clearly, much more research is needed to expand our understanding of the factors that influence conversion of dietary omega-3 ALA from plant foods to the omega-3 DHA and EPA our bodies actually need … and can get far more efficiently from fish and fish oil.

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"I do think it's important to get DHA, and I like to get it through fish oil, though it is possible to get it through vegan source"

Excuse me?

"DHA is the most abundant omega-3 fatty acid in the brain and retina. DHA comprises 40% of the polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) in the brain and 60% of the PUFAs in the retina. Fifty percent of the weight of a neuron's plasma membrane is compose"

The only vegan source is some seaweeds. That is also one of the reasons why humans are not herbivores/frugivores, the human race would have disapeared.

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Ok then, answering chunkylard, if there are health benefits of eating meat they are irrelevant IN MY OPINION because i believe the eating of meat to be morally wrong so we shouldn't be eating it either way.

I should say i am not very well educated, certainly not anthropologically and biologically so it is very difficult and stupid for me to state things like they are facts. I presume you are so i just wondered what your qualifications are?

You use yourself as an example implying that because you experienced something it applies to everyone else and therefore must be FACT.

I was brought up vegetarian and ate loads and loads of soya as were my siblings and if anything i have too much testosterone [maybe a side effect of phytoestrogens through puberty fair enough] and i wish my brothers would have shown signs of estrogen, just to laugh at their moobs for a start and maybe have a little less fighting. My mum has eaten plenty of soy for years and is often complemented on her hair which hasn't gone grey even though she is over 50 years old now. I went through puberty with plenty of soy and no acne, i then started eating meat in my late teens and actually decided i had to avoid soy, no doubt from reading the same kind of information you have. I then started to get acne by my early twenties. From this anecdotal evidence i deduce that soy is a wonder food, essential for health and vital for the prevention of acne.

You make it out as though if you don't eat meat your screwed. There are plenty of vegetarians and vegans across the world who are perfectly healthy. There are loads more of people who eat meat who are are incredibly unhealthy. Most the people who get cancer and heart disease eat meat, does this mean anything apart from the fact that proportionally more people eat meat? Maybe other lifestyle factors are at play and any diet can be unhealthy whether it includes meat or not.

I don't know what CHON has to do with anything either.

Many men will find their hair thinning by the age of 30, it's called mail pattern baldness andfor most peple there is nothing you can do about it through changing your diet except maybe by lowering your calories and fat consumption dangerously low enough to lower your androgen production levels, actually maybe you could eat loads of soy. Failling that maybe you had some kind of stress issues or anxiety, if that is the case then i presume it is back to its full thick shining glory now.

We are apes and our nearest ancestors are frugivores. We spent most of our evolution eating a frugivore diet, we then, as far as i know, started to eat meat and then we started to eat grains and then we started to eat milk. I know virtually nothing about how evolution works but if you look at our biology we are still incredibly close to our frugivore ancestors. Physiologically are we nearer to a frugivore or an omnivore? I don't know myself and because like i said i think the eating of meating is morally wrong i don't suppose it should matter for me but i do find it interesting to consider when you hear people banging on about how we're meant to eat meat.

What i find interesting is that for supposed omnivores why do we show such little instinct to kill? How many of us have killed animals with our bare hands [and haven't been locked up] ? Have any of you tried to kill an animal before you eat it? I remember going out with my friend with an air gun to shoot rabbits once and when i saw the dead rabbit something inside me was telling me it was deadly wrong. I used to go fishing now and then but i started to find it unsettling. When you look at a dead animal do you honestly think hmmmmmmmm and start salvating? Dead animals tend to have the opposite effect on me.

I wish i knew why i started to feel like this and i wish i wouldn't as i realise in this world that morals will do you no favours, it is a ruthless World and far easier for you to "suceed" without morals. Kill or be killed.

If only i wrote this much at school.

Our nearest ancestor is a frugivore? Not really, Urangoutangs have left the other great apes around 12 million years ago, then the gorilla. Our last common ancestor was with Chimps and they are omnivores.

Real frugivore like Urangoutangs spend around 6 hours in trees,they have special morphologic adaptations like very long arms and they don't have a lock on there hips. They also can eat strichnine fruit. Humans cannot do this.They have a different pH in there saliva level to protect there teeth against acids and there digestive system is totally different from humans to cope with the acidity of fruit.

Chimps use tools to hunt, you can kill game with a stick or a stone or use traps.

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" Each year an estimated 41 million tons of plant protein is fed to U.S. livestock to produce an estimated 7 million tons of animal protein for human consumption. About 26 million tons of the livestock feed comes from grains and 15 million tons from forage crops. For every kilogram of high-quality animal protein produced, livestock are fed nearly 6 kg of plant protein."

see link to Cornell Unviersity statistics:

(link wouldn't post, google the title: "U.S. could feed 800 million people with grain that livestock eat, Cornell ecologist advises animal scientists

Future water and energy shortages predicted to change face of American agriculture")

Not sure this info has been described already as I didn't go through the entire thread, but I hope it has.

In response to the original/first post, it would seem to still make more sense to be vegetarian if you wanted to reduce the number of animal deaths/suffering overall even when using your quote from the book.

Most livestock is fed harvested grain and are not free-range/grass fed. It takes exponentially more grain to get the same amount of calories/energy from meat than it would to eat the grain directly. The process of converting plants to meat loses energy.

In the end you are killing both the animal for meat and even more, 6 times more I believe the article said, during harvesting than you would by eating the plants directly.

That's another of those fantasies. I can already say that around 50% of the meat and 90% of the milk is produced in crop-livestock farms. They are fed with farm residues and on pastures.

www.ifad.org/lrkm/factsheet/integratedcrop.pdf

What does 41 million tons of protein really mean. Firstly ALL animals are fed on pastures till they get to 700/800 pounds and then they are eventually sold to a feedlot. Even then for 1kg of grain animals get 6kg of Silage or they get grain poisening.Animals are fed with farm-leftovers,breweries left-overs and biofuel left-overs. The grain that is used to feed animals is hardly used in human consumption,they are specially grown to feed animals like grain Triticale,Oats,Barley. So the "grain to feed the world" is wrong".

Maybe it will be shocking for some of you to discover that there is in fact enough to feed the whole world. World hunger isn't related to meat or even food availibility, it's related to poverty and other factors like us willing cheap goods and exploiting the other side of the world to get them.

www.worldhunger.org/.../world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm

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Just to throw an interesting twist into the vegetarian/vegan thread, Natural News published an article that discusses the possibility that B12 deficiency in the vegan diet may be caused by absorption disorders like Celiac Disease.

In northern India, the vegan diet has been successfully practiced for several thousand years without the use of B12 supplements. But it was found to be a common deficiency among vegans in England during the time of the b12 research (1930's) and Celiac Disease was an unknown disease at that time.

Click here to read all of it:

Although more research needs to be conducted to verify this, I think it is quite an interesting theory.

Wrong, there has never been any healthy vegan population on this planet, not only because of the B12 issue but also other micro-nutrients like DHA/EPA.

What was the only food for babies for million of years? Breastmilk, it's well documented that vegan mothers don't have B12 in there milk if they are not taking supplements,that also applies for other numerous micro-nutrients.Babies without B12 would die very quickly and would end the human race. Even Jains are lacto-vegetarians. Healthy vegans are a middle 20th century movement because of the discovery and creation of chemically manipulated vitamins.

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Just to throw an interesting twist into the vegetarian/vegan thread, Natural News published an article that discusses the possibility that B12 deficiency in the vegan diet may be caused by absorption disorders like Celiac Disease.

In northern India, the vegan diet has been successfully practiced for several thousand years without the use of B12 supplements. But it was found to be a common deficiency among vegans in England during the time of the b12 research (1930's) and Celiac Disease was an unknown disease at that time.

Click here to read all of it:

Although more research needs to be conducted to verify this, I think it is quite an interesting theory.

Wrong, there has never been any healthy vegan population on this planet, not only because of the B12 issue but also other micro-nutrients like DHA/EPA.

What was the only food for babies for million of years? Breastmilk, it's well documented that vegan mothers don't have B12 in there milk if they are not taking supplements,that also applies for other numerous micro-nutrients.Babies without B12 would die very quickly and would end the human race. Even Jains are lacto-vegetarians. Healthy vegans are a middle 20th century movement because of the discovery and creation of chemically manipulated vitamins.

Yup, I made a mistake and said vegans were in Northern India when in fact it was vegetarians.

The malabsorption by Celiac Disease theory is very interesting, though, when applied to vegetarians who become sick within a short while of removing meat from their diet.


"It takes 20 minutes to turn a live steer into a hamburger. One-third of cattle are blinking, looking around and mooing as their tails are cut off, their hooves removed, their hides pulled off and their bellies ripped open. It is happening all over North America. Veterinarians feel its out of control but the government says there is nothing they can do about it." --The Washington Post's "They Die Piece By Piece" (April 11, 2001)

There are 13 major slaughterhouses in the US. All 13 are "self-policed" for animal abuse. Each worker cuts the throat of about 309 cattle per hour. --Humane Society of America

It is legal in North America for male chicks to be thrown into grinders while alive for dog food companies.

"Poor animals! How jealously they guard their pathetic bodies... that which to us is merely an evening's meal, but to them is life itself." — T. Casey Brennan


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celt some very good points, although next time you might want to put them in one post.

Your link about world hunger is not working. But its indeed poverty and not not having enough food.

Wouldnt the biggest problem for child growth be the DHA/EPA and not the vitamin B12?


I dont agree with what I posted in the nutrition section anymore. I just think its not worth it. People worrying about food and acne all day in order to improve their life somehow while they are actually just digging a bigger hole for themselfs. The only reason to eat right should be to feel a bit better. Because the chances you will be able to reduce your acne in such an amount that its worth the effort instead of just trying a new topical is astronomicly low.

Basically get a low effort topical like differin or something more harsh if that doesnt work and just start living the life you want to live!

Retired!


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Animals are fed with farm-leftovers,breweries left-overs and biofuel left-overs. The grain that is used to feed animals is hardly used in human consumption,they are specially grown to feed animals like grain Triticale,Oats,Barley. So the "grain to feed the world" is wrong".

The fields are being used to grow grains for animals as opposed to for human consumption. Or better yet, to grow vegetables for human consumption. The animals shouldn't even be eating grains in any significant amount. And perhaps what you say about how animals are fed is true worldwide, but here we grow low yield per acre, subsidized corn and use it for everything, but especially animal feed. go to a feed store and look at the feed. It's full of corn.

And B12 is made by bacteria. Something we once got more of. In addition a certain amount is made by the bacteria in our systems. Something we possibly had enough of to supply our B12 before our crappy diets and antibiotics. Especially when you consider that folate performs most of the functions of B12, so adequate sources of folate reduce the need for B12.

Also while chimps are omnivores and capable of hunting, they aren't very successful at it. Even those who've watched them poke sleeping bush babies with sharpened sticks have observed they aren't even good at that. Their diet is plant based.

This thread has become a whole lot of posts citing propaganda on both sides. Propaganda that is never quite correct. Humans are omnivores, but we and the planet would be so much better off if people ate a hell of a lot less meat so the massive corporate industrial farms would collapse and we could go back to small local farm sources that raise livestock in fields where they belong. Hopefully the higher fuel prices in a society that has for so long refused to find or adapt to alternatives is already helping this trend along.


Status: Clear after 30 years. Wow, I guess it's been 6 years, now.

[ Story: Severe Acne since I was 10. 10+ years of Dermatologists, Antibiotics, topicals and ACCUTANE did nothing. Discovered oranges triggered the worst of my cystic acne = about 70% improvement. Tried some nutrient supplements like B-complex with zinc and C, saw palmetto and a BHA like the aspirin mask = more improvement, a lot less oily. Then, Diet changes = Clear.

Regimen: Anti-inflammatory, nutrient dense, blood sugar stabilizing diet and supplements (for hormones, inflammation, aging, health). No soap or other cleanser except for hand washing! Water only or Oil cleanse. Aloe Vera mixed with niacinimide and a high linoleic acid oil for moisturizer and reduce pigmentation.

Diet effects acne in so many ways: hormone balance, inflammation, Insulin levels, digestion, allergies and intolerances, liver function, adrenal function, SHBG levels, sebum quality, cell function and turnover, nutrient deficiencies, body fat, etc. Basic advice: Eat, sleep, supplement and exercise like you are a diabetic. And eat real food!

For more information, see my Good Things for Acne thread *Moderator edit - Please refer to the board rules (see “Advertising/soliciting”, “Linking” and “Signatures”)*

When you eat stuff, Stuff Happens!


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^_^)ノ)-->

QUOTE (joris ヘ(^_^ヘ)(ノ^_^)ノ @ Apr 2 2011, 05:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
celt some very good points, although next time you might want to put them in one post.

Your link about world hunger is not working. But its indeed poverty and not not having enough food.

Wouldnt the biggest problem for child growth be the DHA/EPA and not the vitamin B12?

Thats what it would seem like if it were really hard to get DHA on a vegan diet, but all the health organizations say that the vegan diet lacks b12 and never mention DHA.

B12 stays in the body for three years while a DHA deficiency would most likely show itself much sooner (I'm thinking 6 weeks to several months?). So the body must be able to manufacture DHA on its own as long as it receives a normal amount of nutrients and enough EPA & AHA.


"It takes 20 minutes to turn a live steer into a hamburger. One-third of cattle are blinking, looking around and mooing as their tails are cut off, their hooves removed, their hides pulled off and their bellies ripped open. It is happening all over North America. Veterinarians feel its out of control but the government says there is nothing they can do about it." --The Washington Post's "They Die Piece By Piece" (April 11, 2001)

There are 13 major slaughterhouses in the US. All 13 are "self-policed" for animal abuse. Each worker cuts the throat of about 309 cattle per hour. --Humane Society of America

It is legal in North America for male chicks to be thrown into grinders while alive for dog food companies.

"Poor animals! How jealously they guard their pathetic bodies... that which to us is merely an evening's meal, but to them is life itself." — T. Casey Brennan


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alternate dont chimps eat a lot of insects?

The fields are being used to grow grains for animals as opposed to for human consumption. Or better yet, to grow vegetables for human consumption.

I dont agree with what I posted in the nutrition section anymore. I just think its not worth it. People worrying about food and acne all day in order to improve their life somehow while they are actually just digging a bigger hole for themselfs. The only reason to eat right should be to feel a bit better. Because the chances you will be able to reduce your acne in such an amount that its worth the effort instead of just trying a new topical is astronomicly low.

Basically get a low effort topical like differin or something more harsh if that doesnt work and just start living the life you want to live!

Retired!


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