68 replies to this topic

[Craigy]

When I first started on B5 megadosing at 10g a day it took around a month to see a reduction in oil and a further month before I was completely clear. I started noticing hair loss around 6 - 8 months after beginning megadosing, but I'd let my hair grow quite long by this point so it could have been receding a lot sooner and I hadn't noticed! It was definitely male pattern baldness as the temples were receding and the scalp thinning while the rest of my hair was fine. I don't think I had a receding hair line before.

There probably is an optimum level of Biotin, but I experimented a lot and found the optimal amount for me was no Biotin or at least no Biotin in supplement form! Even in small amounts I'd see a reduction in the effectiveness of B5 after a while.

Just to recap, so far:

* Accutane causes a Biotinidase deficiency which prevents the body from using Biotin.

* B5 has no effect on Biotinidase levels, but prevents the body from absorbing Biotin in the first place.

Both of these things, in the majority of people result in a reduced level of sebum production and as a result less to no acne. Also:

* Raw egg white (but not the yolk) contains a Biotin binding chemical called Avidin which again prevents Biotin from being used by the body.

A listed side effect of consuming too much raw egg white without the yolk is that a biotin deficiency will result, which itself has dry skin listed as a symptom. So three seperate things that work in different ways all ultimately stop Biotin from reaching the sebaceous glands. This I believe is what causes them to shrink overtime.

Cheers
Craig

[wibble]

When I first started on B5 megadosing at 10g a day it took around a month to see a reduction in oil and a further month before I was completely clear. I started noticing hair loss around 6 - 8 months after beginning megadosing, but I'd let my hair grow quite long by this point so it could have been receding a lot sooner and I hadn't noticed! It was definitely male pattern baldness as the temples were receding and the scalp thinning while the rest of my hair was fine. I don't think I had a receding hair line before.

There probably is an optimum level of Biotin, but I experimented a lot and found the optimal amount for me was no Biotin or at least no Biotin in supplement form! Even in small amounts I'd see a reduction in the effectiveness of B5 after a while.

Just to recap, so far:

* Accutane causes a Biotinidase deficiency which prevents the body from using Biotin.

* B5 has no effect on Biotinidase levels, but prevents the body from absorbing Biotin in the first place.

Both of these things, in the majority of people result in a reduced level of sebum production and as a result less to no acne. Also:

* Raw egg white (but not the yolk) contains a Biotin binding chemical called Avidin which again prevents Biotin from being used by the body.

A listed side effect of consuming too much raw egg white without the yolk is that a biotin deficiency will result, which itself has dry skin listed as a symptom. So three seperate things that work in different ways all ultimately stop Biotin from reaching the sebaceous glands. This I believe is what causes them to shrink overtime.

Cheers
Craig

All we need now is a willing subject to consume vast quantities of raw egg whites whilst taking no biotin supp to see if it helps and how many are needed .

[strawberries]

Animal biotin foods : Brewer's yeast, liver, lean meats, cheese, milk, egg yolk, poultry, fish.

Plant foods with biotin : Spinach, cauliflower, broccoli, sweet potatoes, brown rice, mushrooms, nuts, soybeans, sunflower seeds.

You would have to avoid all these foods, also.

Then you could have a biotin deficiency.

Overview
Vitamin H, more commonly known as biotin, is a water-soluble vitamin produced in the body by certain types of intestinal bacteria and obtained from food. Considered part of the B complex group of vitamins, biotin is necessary for the metabolism of carbohydrates, fats, and amino acids (the building blocks of protein).

Deficiency, uncommon in humans, may result in hair loss, dry scaly skin, cracking in the corners of the mouth (called cheilitis), swollen and painful tongue that is magenta in color (glossitis), dry eyes, loss of appetite, fatigue, insomnia, and depression. Animals deficient in biotin during pregnancy are more likely to deliver newborns with birth defects such as a cleft palate. Research in this area for pregnant women is underway. One situation in which biotin deficiency does often develop is in people who have been on parenteral nutrition (nutrition administered intravenously rather than through the mouth or stomach) for a long period of time. It may also been seen in people who have been on long-term therapy with anticonvulsants, antibiotics, and sulfa drugs.

Interestingly, vegetarians are able to absorb more biotin from the gastrointestinal tract than meat eaters. Biotin is often recommended for strengthening hair and nails and is found in many cosmetic products for hair and skin.

Why don't you focus your intension onto the root cause of your acne? Not just getting rid of it.

[Craigy]

Why don't you focus your intension onto the root cause of your acne? Not just getting rid of it.

The root cause of my acne is oily skin caused by overactive sebaceous glands due to their sensitivity to androgen hormones. Inhibiting Biotin through the use of B5, Accutane or raw egg whites seems to shrink said sebaceous glands so they stop producing sebum in response to these androgen hormones.

Cheers
Craig

[Craigy]

All we need now is a willing subject to consume vast quantities of raw egg whites whilst taking no biotin supp to see if it helps and how many are needed .

I found a Google Groups post from a body builder who was consuming vast quantities of raw egg white for protein intake. The thing to also remember for anyone who wants to try this is that you must make sure that the hen that laid it was vaccinated against salmonella (Lion Mark in the UK,) steer clear of the egg yolk as that provides at least as much Biotin as the egg white binds, and ensure it's consumed raw as otherwise the Avidin, Biotin binding chemical is deactivated!

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.rec.bodybuilding/browse_thread/thread/b965be9d7e36b8ba/d9ec87c2edcd8881?lnk=st&q=egg+white+%22dry+skin%22&rnum=5&hl=en#d9ec87c2edcd8881

Also need yolks for the biotin ,i got dry skin fro m biotin deficiency
eating too many egg whites (48 a day)had to start taking biotin vits
davy

Cheers
Craig

[5fiive5]

This theory definitely has some validity.. Because transcarboxylase levels are genetic. Those transcarboxylase levels work with biotin. Individuals who inherited the levels could also have inherited acne. I'm not 100 % sure on this, yet.

Biochemistry. 1975 Jun 3;14(11):2338-42. Related Articles, Links

Production of antibodies that bind biotin and inhibit biotin containing enzymes.

Berger M.

Methods were developed for the coupling of biotin to bovine serum albumin and bovine gamma-globulin using a water-soluble carbodimide. The use of [14-C]biotin as a tracer allowed quantitation of the incorporation of biotin into the conjugates: 2.55 mol of biotin was incorporated per mol of gamma-globulin and 7-9 mol of biotin was incorporated per mol of serum albumin in different preparations. These conjugates were highly immunogenic in the rabbit and anti-bodies reactive with the biotinyl group itself could be detected by their ability to precipitate the heterologous biotinated carrier but not the unmodified heterologous carrier. There antisera rapidly inactivated transcarboxylase and pyruvate carboxylase and this inactivation could be blocked by pretreatment of the antisera with biotin or biocytin. Using enzyme inhibition to detect free antibody, the binding constant for biotin was found to be 5.0 x 10- minus 8 M and that for biocytin 3.5 x 10- minus 8 M.

PMID: 49192 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

This is actually quite amazing to me, because it would explain why biotin itself is not the cause of acne. Its the levels of genetic material that deal with the biotin. that would explain why a person not experiencing acne would not break out after consuming large amounts of biotin..

[Craigy]

I'm still trying to research this Biotin theory further. I used to take B5 which worked really well in stopping oil production, however I suffered with a side effect of heat intolerance and sweating. I thought Accutane was the solution to stop my acne but prevent the side effects, however I also found that it had the same effect of causing heat intolerance and sweating.

Both things caused the same side effects, but also dried up my skin oil. Again the common link between Accutane and B5 is their ability to inhibit the action of Biotin, so I'm still of the opinion that by doing this the skin oil dries up but for some unknown reason at this stage the sweating and intolerance to heat increases.

Cheers
Craig

[Veen]

doesnt raw eggwhite (the avidine in it) also inhibit biotin?

[Craigy]

doesnt raw eggwhite (the avidine in it) also inhibit biotin?

Raw egg white is another one of the things that can inhibit Biotin as the Avidin contained within it binds to the Biotin making it biologically inactive. I can't find anything conclusive that would indicate how many raw egg whites you'd have to consume to bind a sufficient enough quantity of Biotin to cause a deficiency though. The body is capable of reusing Biotin as well so needs time for a defiency to build up. (same with Accutane and B5)

Cooking the egg white deactivates the avidin so prevents its Biotin binding ability. The raw egg yolk also contains around as much Biotin as the avidin in the egg white inhibits so if you ingest the raw yolk with the raw egg white you are effectively counter acting the effects of avidin.

Based upon that you could therefore assume that if you were to ingest a sufficient enough quantity of raw egg whites without the yolk you should see the same results as using Accutane or B5. At this stage I'm not sure what the quantity required to achieve this is.

I still maintain there's some credibility to this theory as at the moment it's the one, for me that make logical sense. Maybe one day instead of acne sufferers taking megadoses of B5 or the side effect ridden Accutane we'll be taking an Avidin pill.

Unfortunately I'm only one person who happens to suffer from oily skin and acne, and even if this theory is correct as to how B5 and Accutane (and raw egg white) works then I can't see it getting taken any further without research from a big pharmaceutical company.

There's a chemically purified form of Avidin called Streptavidin that you can actually buy from biochemical companies but it's not for human consumption and costs a small fortune!

Cheers
Craig

[xtr3m]

It seems that you would need to consume a huge amount of egg whites, just like that body builder (48 a day). Only 0.05% of egg white is avidin.

[wibble]

It seems that you would need to consume a huge amount of egg whites, just like that body builder (48 a day). Only 0.05% of egg white is avidin.

hehe 48 a day! That would take some stamina .

Might be interesting to see if there's some secret formula of vit a (which can't take too much of), vit b5 and raw egg whites which wasn't over the top in causing deficiencies in other areas as well other than biotin.

It's oddly the first time I wish I wasn't on accutane so I could test it with the oil on my face hehe.

[Craigy]

The thing is all three work in slightly different ways as far as I can tell from the research I've done so far, but ultimately have the same action:

• Accutane causes a Biotinidase deficiency which means the body is unable to use the available Biotin it absorbs.
• Pantothenic Acid or B5 blocks the uptake, i.e. absorption of Biotin meaning that none enters the blood stream as the digestive system absorbs the B5 instead.
• Avidin in Raw Egg Whites binds directly to the Biotin preventing it from being used by the body when absorbed.

All three have been reported, some officially, some unofficially, to dry up sebum production and cause dry skin. The only common link between all three is associated with Biotin so I have little doubt that Biotin has an influencial effect on sebaceous glands.

What I'm not sure about is how a Biotin deficiency is able to shrink the sebaceous glands. Is it a direct action or indirect, e.g. lowering or raising other hormone levels, etc.

Cheers
Craig

[Craigy]

I've always suffered with being quite hot when people around me are cool and as a result I sweat a lot. I've found that both B5 and Accutane have increased that side effect for me so lowering Biotin or Biotinidase levels at least for me, also seems to be doing something that's increasing my intolerance to heat.

I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I'd guess that it's down to the change in hormone levels or something to do with glucose levels.

Cheers
Craig

[Erox]

hm.. Well I think taking accutane too long would be dangerous but wouldn't having a lot of b5 also be a bit dangerous, although if it's ok to use a lot of it is there a certain way to not have the hair loss part?

[wibble]

hm.. Well I think taking accutane too long would be dangerous but wouldn't having a lot of b5 also be a bit dangerous, although if it's ok to use a lot of it is there a certain way to not have the hair loss part?

I think B5 is probably less dangerous as its water soluble, so you can't really overdose on it as such as not stored in the liver etc (afaik).

Hard to say if its possible without the hairloss, think it will depend on your genes, I'm currently on accutane and no hairloss, but I know others that have had. It's a risk basically (one I'm personally happy to take, as I'm gonna lose hair at some point anyway).

[Craigy]

B5 itself isn't toxic because it's water soluble so as long as you're getting enough water the excess will be flushed out when the body doesn't need it anymore so there's nothing really to worry about there.

The action of B5 megadosing could be harmful long term though. If I'm right and the way B5 works is by inducing a Biotin deficiency by blocking it's absorption then the long term effects of a Biotin deficiency on the body could cause problems!

I still remain convinced that the way B5, Accutane and as yet unproven raw egg whites can stop or slow down sebum production is by inducing a Biotin related deficiency. I'm not sure whether the lack of Biotin acts directly on the sebaceous glands to shrink / kill them, or whether there's another action, e.g. Biotin deficiency prevents the metabolism of some hormones or fats that would normally be excreted by the sebaceous glands, but in my mind inducing a Biotin deficiency has a definite role to play in reducing sebum.

Some initial side effects of a Biotin deficiency include those listed below: (Taken from Wikipedia)

* Dry skin
* Seborrheic dermatitis
* Fungal infections
* Rashes including erythematous periorofacial macular rash
* Fine and brittle hair
* Hair loss or total alopecia


Long term it seems a Biotin deficiency can progress into the side effects listed below which are more concerning! (also from Wikipedia)

* Mild depression, which may progress to profound lassitude and, eventually, to somnolence
* Changes in mental status
* Generalized muscular pains (myalgias)
* Hyperesthesias and paresthesias


Cheers
Craig

[Craigy]

Accutane has appeared on various news websites recently regarding new research that in mice it appeared to trigger a depression type state, although this study hadn't been conducted in humans so it is unknown whether it has the same effect.

What I do find interesting with this though, is that a Biotin deficiency has been linked to causing depression in certain individuals as per the details contained in my last post taken from Wikipedia. This to me is yet more evidence that the way Accutane works is by inducing a Biotin related deficiency which directly or indirectly causes a reduction in sebum.

I feel that the Biotin reduction link with B5, Accutane & Raw Egg White is enough to warrant extra investigation but I'm not sure where to start or who to present my theory to!

Cheers
Craig

[Craigy]

hey craigy what are biotin rich foods that I should avoid while on tane??

Taking Accutane should ensure that ingesting foods that contain Biotin doesn't have any impact on sebum production as Accutane acts to reduce Biotinidase which prevents the Biotin from being used no matter how much there is.

B5 and Raw Egg White (without the Yolk) act directly on reducing Biotin itself but the end result on sebum production is the same, although you have to be more careful about ingesting foods rich in Biotin if you're on B5 or using Raw Egg Whites as they don't stop it being used if it gets aborbed into your body.

There's a comprehensive list on the webpage below:
http://www.healthyea...ata/data4h.html

To pick some of the foods on the list with a high Biotin content: (greater than or equal to 10 micrograms per 100 grams)

* Bran Wheat
* Dried Bakers Yeast
* Cheese Souffle
* Egg (inc Yolk, boiled, fried, scrambled, omlette, poached, etc)
* Raw Oysters
* Fried Cod Roe
* Fried Chicken Liver
* Fried Kidney
* Fried Liver
* Dried Skimmed Milk
* Dried Whole Milk
* Mayonnaise

So if anyone has a diet high in the foods above then it could be a contributing factor to sebum production, although I think even in the abscence of the above the enzymes in the gut are capable of synthesising Biotin on their own!

Cheers
Craig

[Craigy]

I still remain convinced that Accutane and B5 both work by causing a Biotin or Biotinidase deficiency and as such shrink the sebaceous glands so they stop producing sebum. I'm noticing more and more similarities between the effects of Accutane and B5 on my body. I'm not a scientist but I've never been more confident about any theory I've come up with than this Biotin one as it makes sense.

Maybe one day we'll be taking Avidin (the molecule that binds to Biotin found in raw egg white) to cure our Acne instead of megadosing on B5 and the controversial Accutane drug.

Cheers
Craig