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Craigy

B5 & Accutane - My Theory - Inhibit Biotin = Less Acne

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I used to megadose B5 to control my acne and oily skin. I was on it off and on for around 4 years and found it to be very good, so good in fact that I'd go as far as to call it a cure as it completely stopped my sebum production on my skin.

Two side effects occured though, an increase in sensitivity to heat and therefore sweating and hair loss. I tried combatting these by adding a B complex but to my horror my oily skin and acne returned whenever I started taking a B complex! I quickly dropped the B complex and my skin gradually returned to normal, so I started looked for an alternative.

I thought I'd try dosing the B vitamins individually with the B5 to see which one caused the oily skin to return. I started with Biotin as it's been said to help hair loss. A few days after taking Biotin my oily skin and acne returned once more!

In the end I just continued megadosing B5 until a hot summer took it's toll on my temperature sensitivity and sweating and I stopped taking B5 altogether.

When my acne returned I tried experimenting with Soy, Green Tea, etc but with little success so I've finally turned to Accutane to try and control my oily skin and acne. It's only been a few days but hopefully it will work as well as the B5 did without the same side effects.

------------------------------------------

So based upon the above information, my theory ... Generally it's not really understood exactly how Accutane stops oil production, and likewise how B5 does the same. There was the initial study done by Dr. Leung on B5 but there's been nothing since, and even with Accutane there isn't really anything conclusive as to how it works.

What I am interested in is that I've researched that B5 can result in Biotin uptake from the intestines being blocked, so basically you'll become deficient in Biotin when megadosing B5. I was also interested to read that, while Accutane does not lower Biotin levels, it inhibits the body's ability to use Biotin.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginf...ent-biotin.html

"Pantothenic acid: High-doses of pantothenic acid can lead to malabsorption of biotin in the gut, and can lower levels of biotin in the body."

"Isotretinoin (Accutane): May reduce biotinidase activity. It is not clear if biotin supplementation may be warranted during chronic use."

It is therefore my theory that both B5 and Accutane reduce sebum production due to their lowering or inhibition of Biotin in the body. This theory is in part backed up with my experience where when taking B5 and I added Biotin supplements to my regime my oily skin and acne returned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotin

"Initial symptoms of biotin deficiency include:

1.Dry skin"

Cheers

Craig

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keep us posted on the accutane craigy. i start it aug 27th!


MY ACCUTANE LOG

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php?showtopic=113285

Supplements:

acidophilus pills (jarro dophilis)

INDIAN HERBS (ayurvedic)

as many antioxidants from my diet!

Evening:HONEY OATMEAL SOAP

Waiting for Green Cream in mail

Lustra AF Hydroquinone

Green Tea/Peppermint for spots cream

Makeup:

Mac powder, Mac Full Coverage


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I've still been doing internet research and I think there's more than just a connection with my theory that inhibiting Biotin or Biotinidase (which prevents Biotin from being used) is the action behind how B5 and Accutane cause the Sebaceous glands to shrink and as a result less or no oily sebum to be produced.

I'm not saying that Biotin itself is the cause of oily skin as if that was the case why isn't everyone affected, but I think levels of Biotin have an effect on the size of the sebaceous gland. These glands are then triggered by the circulating androgen's in your body, i.e. Testosterone and DHT. By reducing Biotin the sebaceous glands shrink, die, or become dormant meaning there's nothing there for the androgens to bind to so you get no oil.

I've done many searches on Google web and groups and generally a lot of sites are in agreement that a deficiency in Biotin will cause dry skin and it seems a coincidence that the only two things that actually work to prevent oil production produce the same Biotin deficient state.

I'm currently on Accutane, but I'm considering trying an experiment to test my theory once I'm off Accutane if I'm still not clear. Hopefully that won't be the case but I'm keeping my options open!

The white of an egg, when raw contains a chemical called Avidin. This has been known to be a potent Biotin binder which will itself cause a Biotin deficient state. I'm not sure what quantity of egg white would be required to achieve this though. You can't buy it in supplement form so the only source of it is the egg white itself, and it has to be raw when ingested as cooking renders the Avidin inactive. It's also a good idea to stay away from the yolk as that's quite rich in Biotin compared to the egg white so ultimately you wouldn't be getting the benefit of the Avidin in the egg white.

I've read that, while there is a risk of salmonella from eating raw egg white, generally the risk is higher when you consume raw egg yolk as bacteria can thrive in the yolk whereas the white doesn't make for a good bacterial environment. Hopefully consuming a sufficient quantity of raw egg white will be enough to induce or lower Biotin levels in the body which will then shrink the sebaceous glands.

Cheers

Craig

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hey craigy how long was it before you saw really good results on B5???

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hey craigy how long was it before you saw really good results on B5???

How come people who take the B-complex still have success with B5 then? I think I would be too afraid to stop the B-complex because of the hairloss issue.


One day...

Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.


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hey craigy how long was it before you saw really good results on B5???

How come people who take the B-complex still have success with B5 then? I think I would be too afraid to stop the B-complex because of the hairloss issue.

It was around a month before I saw my skin getting less oily, and then a further month before I was 100% clear. When I first started taking it the suggestion of a B complex was unheard.

In answer to the other question I'm not saying that a B complex stops B5 from working altogether, but what it does is reduce it's effectiveness. People will see results with B5 and a B complex but if someone is looking for perfection (like I was) then the only way to do it is to drop the B complex. It's only without a B complex that your skin can go that final step and stop producing sebum altogether.

With no B complex I could eat whatever I wanted, when I wanted, do as much or as little exercise, put whatever I wanted on my face, wash it whenever I wanted with whatever I wanted and it would carry on being as clear and dry as ever.

I went to a music festival a few years back for a long weekend and as disgusting as it sounds I couldn't wash my face for a few days. By the end of the festival my skin was still as dry and not oily as the day I arrived.

Cheers

Craig

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Craigy, I'm very fascinated by your findings, and it seems like you're on to something. My question is, what was the amount of Biotin you took a day, and for how many days did you take it, before you noticed your skin becoming more oily?

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damn, that is very interesting. I might stop taking the b complex and the biotin but the hairloss thing scares the heck out of me.


24/M

Marine Corps

acne since puberty (hereditary)

2x on accutane.. came back both times. Damnit

Currently on vitamin B5


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I used to megadose B5 to control my acne and oily skin. I was on it off and on for around 4 years and found it to be very good, so good in fact that I'd go as far as to call it a cure as it completely stopped my sebum production on my skin.

Two side effects occured though, an increase in sensitivity to heat and therefore sweating and hair loss. I tried combatting these by adding a B complex but to my horrow my oily skin and acne returned whenever I started taking a B complex! I quickly dropped the B complex and my skin gradually returned to normal, so I started looked for an alternative.

I thought I'd try dosing the B vitamins individually with the B5 to see which one caused the oily skin to return. I started with Biotin as it's been said to help hair loss. A few days after taking Biotin my oily skin and acne returned once more!

In the end I just continued megadosing B5 until a hot summer took it's toll on my temperature sensitivity and sweating and I stopped taking B5 altogether.

When my acne returned I tried experimenting with Soy, Green Tea, etc but with little success so I've finally turned to Accutane to try and control my oily skin and acne. It's only been a few days but hopefully it will work as well as the B5 did without the same side effects.

------------------------------------------

So based upon the above information, my theory ... Generally it's not really understood exactly how Accutane stops oil production, and likewise how B5 does the same. There was the initial study done by Dr. Leung on B5 but there's been nothing since, and even with Accutane there isn't really anything conclusive as to how it works.

What I am interested in is that I've researched that B5 can result in Biotin uptake from the intestines being blocked, so basically you'll become deficient in Biotin when megadosing B5. I was also interested to read that, while Accutane does not lower Biotin levels, it inhibits the body's ability to use Biotin.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginf...ent-biotin.html

"Pantothenic acid: High-doses of pantothenic acid can lead to malabsorption of biotin in the gut, and can lower levels of biotin in the body."

"Isotretinoin (Accutane): May reduce biotinidase activity. It is not clear if biotin supplementation may be warranted during chronic use."

It is therefore my theory that both B5 and Accutane reduce sebum production due to their lowering or inhibition of Biotin in the body. This theory is in part backed up with my experience where when taking B5 and I added Biotin supplements to my regime my oily skin and acne returned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotin

"Initial symptoms of biotin deficiency include:

1.Dry skin"

Cheers

Craig

If it was that simple accutane/B5 would not be needed.

Do you know that some people with dry skin also suffer acne?

Your analysis is flawed.

http://www.acne-resource.org/understanding-acne/dryskin.html

Moisture(water-hydration) is different from sebum/oil.

Dry skin is simply lack of moisture and not an indicator of sebum oil-gland pinch-off.

The skin retains natural moisture from the liquids you drink within the intercellular structure of the skin.

Water is important to the structural integrity of the proteins of which skin is made. Once lost from within the structure, that water cannot be replaced by topical application of any moisturizer.

Dry skin is recognizable by its tight, rough feel and its dull appearance. Dry skin is apparent in its upper-most layer, the epidermis. Roughly 80% of the body's epidermal cells are made of keratinocytes, composed of soft protein keratin. The epidermal cells are born in the lowest layer of the epidermis, the basal layer. As these cells rise toward the outer (horny) layer, they undergo many changes, including the increase in the amount of keratin they produce. By the time the cells reach the top, they are no londer alive, and are formed entirely of keratin. If the cells contain too little keratin, the appearance begins to look cracked and flaky as cells slough off. Keratin needs water to keep it pliable and healthy; when there is not enough water, the keratin crumbles and the cells can't stay together. This is what happens when the skin becomes dry. In order to keep this from happening, a way must be found to keep water trapped in the skin, keeping the keratin healthy.


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Just My 2 cents worth

Melbourne I think you just took a lot of what he said and meant and TOOK IT OUT OF CONTEXT.

Melbourne until YOU HAVE CURED ACNE then I can conclude your analysis IS ALSO FLAWED. SO STFU

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Craigy, I'm very fascinated by your findings, and it seems like you're on to something. My question is, what was the amount of Biotin you took a day, and for how many days did you take it, before you noticed your skin becoming more oily?

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Yup, MelbourneBloke, you're misinterpreting what he's saying with the context of dry skin. When you've had shed loads of oil constantly on your skin for years and then it suddenly stops it will "appear" dry, even if you want to say its not try (still has water). Sure you need water/moisture, but thats not at issue here and has no bearing on it.

For what its worth, I agree with Craigy and my experience definitely supports it (and thanks a lot for posting it on so many threads as it sunk in for me to try it). I've been on Accutane 2 months now. After about 1 week of Accutane I had zero oil on my skin even after a whole day (whereas before would be about 30 mins).

Now, because of the side effects of the Accutane (joint ache worst for me) I thought I'd add a vitamin supplement in to help. After a few weeks on the multivitamins (containing biotin) I noticed the oil starting to come back visibly which made me start to think its was stopping working and was getting worried it was a waste.

After reading the threads on b5 and Craigys posts specifically about biotin, I thought maybe it did the same with Accutane as b5 and Accutane seem to work in similar ways. So I replaced my biotin included multivit with a standard one (has vits A,D,E,C,B2,B5,B6,B12 if that helps, but no large doses like b5 overdosing, just the standard 100% rda). Within 2 days of switching to a none biotin multivitamin the oils gone again and I'm back on track with the Accutane.

So I'd say the biotin link is definitely something to be very wary of with b5 OR Accutane and see for yourself. I'm even wondering if some of those Accutane hasn't been successful for have had biotin supplements (or biotin rich foods) to make it less effective.

Main thing is I think to also be wary of long term biotin deficiency causing problems. Maybe stagger it and just take the b5 in periods like Accutane and not long term.

The egg whites is an interesting one to try, but I'd wonder how many you'd need to have per day to possibly have a similar dosage to b5, not sure I'd like to consume shed loads of it, if its just one egg white a day then maybe.

I'm not sure how accutane (vit a) has any relation to biotin though, so could all be just coincidence in my case, but its something maybe for people to try if they are taking biotin supps.

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If it was that simple accutane/B5 would not be needed.

Do you know that some people with dry skin also suffer acne?

Your analysis is flawed.

I do appreciate that some people with acne have dry skin, but if you look at the majority of people suffering with acne vulgaris you'll find that generally it's due to an excess of sebum production from the sebaceous glands.

B5 and Accutane both reduce that sebum production and for a lot of people both reduce acne so while my theory doesn't apply in all cases I think in the vast majority there is some truth to it.

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Craigy, I'm very fascinated by your findings, and it seems like you're on to something. My question is, what was the amount of Biotin you took a day, and for how many days did you take it, before you noticed your skin becoming more oily?

I think I'm onto something too, but I can't take my findings any further. I have a hard enough time convincing people on this forum about my theory let alone someone who might have the knowledge or funds to test the theory.

I initially took a NOW Foods B-50 complex twice a day for about a fortnight before my skin started producing enough sebum to cause acne again. I believe each tablet contained about 50mcg of Biotin. After that I tried experimenting with dosage by only taking one a day or one every other day, but nothing seemed to help.

Not realising it was Biotin that was the cause I thought I'd single out Biotin first as something to help with my hair loss (which I now believe was due to an excess of DHT.) I purchased NOW Foods Biotin in 1000mcg capsules. Not long after taking them my oily skin came back, even at one a day.

I then tried ordering Vilantae B5 capsules too before realising it was Biotin and things got really bad as far as oil production goes as each capsule contains 60mcg of Biotin so to get your 10g dosage of B5, by taking Vilantae you are also ingesting 1200mcg of Biotin per day!

My advice remains the same, stay away from Biotin if you want to get 100% perfectly clear skin, especially from B5.

Cheers

Craig

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I'm not sure how accutane (vit a) has any relation to biotin though, so could all be just coincidence in my case, but its something maybe for people to try if they are taking biotin supps.

If you glance back at the first post of this thread you'll see two links describing the effects both B5 otherwise known as Pantothenic Acid, and Accutane, otherwise known as Isotretinoin, have on Biotin or Biotin usage within the body.

Essentially B5 seems to stop Biotin from being absorbed by the body so it will gradually deplete itself (the body can reuse Biotin,) whereas Accutane works slightly differently in reducing Biotinidase levels which doesn't directly reduce Biotin levels, but prevents the body from using Biotin.

I essentially think that Biotin is essential for the health of Sebaceous glands so by reducing this vitamin or the body's ability to use it, the sebaceous gland slowly starts shrinking and either becomes dormant or dies off and as a result sebum production slows down and eventually stops.

If someone else can disprove what I'm saying then I'm open to suggestion but based upon my own and many other people's experiences it's a good theory at the moment.

Cheers

Craig

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I definetly believe you're onto something Craigy. I have cut out my Biotin intake from vitamins while megadosing with B5 and I do believe I'm seeing better results. I'm closing in on the 30 day mark of my megadosing, and I felt like I wasn't seeing as good of results as I should, but now I believe it's getting better.

I'll keep updates coming on my condition without Biotin and let you know what I have determined for myself.

Also, do you know how much Biotin is present in an average daily diet? I haven't done much research on the vitamin itself, but I'm thinking about looking into other stuff to make sure I'm cutting all of it out of my diet.

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thanks craigy your research on biotin and b vitamin deficiencies caused by megadoses of pantothenic acid has lead me in the right direction. I tried B5 a few months ago with no results. I was taking alot of other vitamins including a strong multivitamin with lots of b in it. Now that I solely take pantothenic acid I have noticed it has a huge effect on my body.. as for my acne, its too hard to tell how well its working because I just came off a raw diet shortly after starting B5. At first I got a heat rash for 5 days. Then I had an initial breakout of gunk and small pimples on forehead.. I still have a good amount of oil on my face most of the time but I feel like its going to come around.. It has been about 18 days I think.. maybe less. How long before you saw results.. how long before you noticed hair loss. how did you notice the hair loss.. was it MPB . did you already have a receding hair line?? Thanks a ton.

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I wonder if there's a way to find a balance so that you can remain clear but still get some Biotin into your system to keep things working somewhat. For instance, once you get clear with B5, perhaps taking a B-Complex once per week could help?

I might try this once I get clear (fingers crossed).

Pinky

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When I first started on B5 megadosing at 10g a day it took around a month to see a reduction in oil and a further month before I was completely clear. I started noticing hair loss around 6 - 8 months after beginning megadosing, but I'd let my hair grow quite long by this point so it could have been receding a lot sooner and I hadn't noticed! It was definitely male pattern baldness as the temples were receding and the scalp thinning while the rest of my hair was fine. I don't think I had a receding hair line before.

There probably is an optimum level of Biotin, but I experimented a lot and found the optimal amount for me was no Biotin or at least no Biotin in supplement form! Even in small amounts I'd see a reduction in the effectiveness of B5 after a while.

Just to recap, so far:

* Accutane causes a Biotinidase deficiency which prevents the body from using Biotin.

* B5 has no effect on Biotinidase levels, but prevents the body from absorbing Biotin in the first place.

Both of these things, in the majority of people result in a reduced level of sebum production and as a result less to no acne. Also:

* Raw egg white (but not the yolk) contains a Biotin binding chemical called Avidin which again prevents Biotin from being used by the body.

A listed side effect of consuming too much raw egg white without the yolk is that a biotin deficiency will result, which itself has dry skin listed as a symptom. So three seperate things that work in different ways all ultimately stop Biotin from reaching the sebaceous glands. This I believe is what causes them to shrink overtime.

Cheers

Craig

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When I first started on B5 megadosing at 10g a day it took around a month to see a reduction in oil and a further month before I was completely clear. I started noticing hair loss around 6 - 8 months after beginning megadosing, but I'd let my hair grow quite long by this point so it could have been receding a lot sooner and I hadn't noticed! It was definitely male pattern baldness as the temples were receding and the scalp thinning while the rest of my hair was fine. I don't think I had a receding hair line before.

There probably is an optimum level of Biotin, but I experimented a lot and found the optimal amount for me was no Biotin or at least no Biotin in supplement form! Even in small amounts I'd see a reduction in the effectiveness of B5 after a while.

Just to recap, so far:

* Accutane causes a Biotinidase deficiency which prevents the body from using Biotin.

* B5 has no effect on Biotinidase levels, but prevents the body from absorbing Biotin in the first place.

Both of these things, in the majority of people result in a reduced level of sebum production and as a result less to no acne. Also:

* Raw egg white (but not the yolk) contains a Biotin binding chemical called Avidin which again prevents Biotin from being used by the body.

A listed side effect of consuming too much raw egg white without the yolk is that a biotin deficiency will result, which itself has dry skin listed as a symptom. So three seperate things that work in different ways all ultimately stop Biotin from reaching the sebaceous glands. This I believe is what causes them to shrink overtime.

Cheers

Craig

All we need now is a willing subject to consume vast quantities of raw egg whites whilst taking no biotin supp to see if it helps and how many are needed ;).

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Animal biotin foods : Brewer's yeast, liver, lean meats, cheese, milk, egg yolk, poultry, fish.

Plant foods with biotin : Spinach, cauliflower, broccoli, sweet potatoes, brown rice, mushrooms, nuts, soybeans, sunflower seeds.

You would have to avoid all these foods, also.

Then you could have a biotin deficiency.

Overview

Vitamin H, more commonly known as biotin, is a water-soluble vitamin produced in the body by certain types of intestinal bacteria and obtained from food. Considered part of the B complex group of vitamins, biotin is necessary for the metabolism of carbohydrates, fats, and amino acids (the building blocks of protein).

Deficiency, uncommon in humans, may result in hair loss, dry scaly skin, cracking in the corners of the mouth (called cheilitis), swollen and painful tongue that is magenta in color (glossitis), dry eyes, loss of appetite, fatigue, insomnia, and depression. Animals deficient in biotin during pregnancy are more likely to deliver newborns with birth defects such as a cleft palate. Research in this area for pregnant women is underway. One situation in which biotin deficiency does often develop is in people who have been on parenteral nutrition (nutrition administered intravenously rather than through the mouth or stomach) for a long period of time. It may also been seen in people who have been on long-term therapy with anticonvulsants, antibiotics, and sulfa drugs.

Interestingly, vegetarians are able to absorb more biotin from the gastrointestinal tract than meat eaters. Biotin is often recommended for strengthening hair and nails and is found in many cosmetic products for hair and skin.

Why don't you focus your intension onto the root cause of your acne? Not just getting rid of it.


I have the power within me to heal myself.


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Why don't you focus your intension onto the root cause of your acne? Not just getting rid of it.

The root cause of my acne is oily skin caused by overactive sebaceous glands due to their sensitivity to androgen hormones. Inhibiting Biotin through the use of B5, Accutane or raw egg whites seems to shrink said sebaceous glands so they stop producing sebum in response to these androgen hormones.

Cheers

Craig

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All we need now is a willing subject to consume vast quantities of raw egg whites whilst taking no biotin supp to see if it helps and how many are needed ;).

I found a Google Groups post from a body builder who was consuming vast quantities of raw egg white for protein intake. The thing to also remember for anyone who wants to try this is that you must make sure that the hen that laid it was vaccinated against salmonella (Lion Mark in the UK,) steer clear of the egg yolk as that provides at least as much Biotin as the egg white binds, and ensure it's consumed raw as otherwise the Avidin, Biotin binding chemical is deactivated!

>http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.rec.bodybuilding/browse_thread/thread/b965be9d7e36b8ba/d9ec87c2edcd8881?lnk=st&q=egg+white+%22dry+skin%22&rnum=5&hl=en#d9ec87c2edcd8881

Also need yolks for the biotin ,i got dry skin fro m biotin deficiency

eating too many egg whites (48 a day)had to start taking biotin vits

davy

Cheers

Craig

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