99 replies to this topic

[LabGirl81]

More satisfied... hesitant to say I've arrived at satisfaction island though.

Given that you seem to have investigated skin so thoroughly... might I ask what you would recommend to remedy or alleviate acne--by way of external regimen or otherwise? Are you listening LabGirl? Any ideas?

I'm sure you've graced other forums with this knowledge before, but I know not where to look...

Thanks O Wise One(s)

~L

Assuming that this isn't scarcastic.....

No not yet...although I'm 100% clear, I'm not one to go preaching to others about how to get rid of their acne. There are way too many variables and I'm not a dermatologist. I've found great success combining topical retinoids with BP (I also take birth control pills), but that's just me....and that works for my type of acne.

I'm a cosmetic chemist, and while I do know a decent amount about skin and skincare (I have a masters degree in Cosmetic Science).... I'm not a magician, I don't have the fountain of youth or cure to acne somewhere in my lab, I'm not a makeup artist, or whatever else it is that people think cosmetic chemists actaully do....

I am considering going back to school so I can research it though....with more emphisis on actually what causes acne (we still don't know exactly what triggers the formation of microcomedoes, which is the beginning of all acne lesions), rather that a way to cure it....I think once we find out what causes it a cure won't be too far away.....Until then I have my retin-a and BP....

[Daz!]

More satisfied... hesitant to say I've arrived at satisfaction island though.

Given that you seem to have investigated skin so thoroughly... might I ask what you would recommend to remedy or alleviate acne--by way of external regimen or otherwise? Are you listening LabGirl? Any ideas?

I'm sure you've graced other forums with this knowledge before, but I know not where to look...

Thanks O Wise One(s)

~L

From the studies I've read and based on probability (& statistics).
I would personally advise the following;

Morning and night cleansing routine;
With a 2% salicylic acid cleanser such as Neutrogena's oil free face wash.
Massage into damp face for 30 seconds.
Thoroughly rinse of with water.
Then use a non medicated PH cleanser, put in palm of damp hand with drops of lipophilic tea tree oil to make it about 10% of solution.
Massage into damp face for 30 seconds again.
Then thoroughly rinse off with water.
Water should be quite warm but cold on finishing rinses.

You can adjust the 30 seconds to less or more according to how your skin reacts.

At night before bed take 30mg of zinc gluconate with water (must be at least an hour after eating or drinking anything).

This will significantly improve your condition BUT you must be consistent and it take 3 months for full results.

Do not take anyother supplements not even oils as they are dumped by the liver thru the skin, including iodides which cause inflammation.

This helped improve me 90% after 3 months and now I just use a cleanser in morning (I'm giving Jan Carlo's idea a bash) but I still take zinc at night.

I notice (but for the zinc) this is similar to Botchla's regimen but with Tea Tree Oil instead of BP.
I was tempted to try BP, I'd use Oxy 10 Wash or Panoxyl 10 Wash if I did as they dont have residuel crap like petrolatum. I'd also start with 10 seconds rather than 30 seconds.

I believe acne is hormonal, it seems to occur mostly at puberty and during times of stress and with eating disorders. Alot of acne sufferers are thin, so the zinc regimen (used on anorexics) is clinically proven to be effective.

The pill helps as well as labgirl has shown, and interestingly when a testorene inhibitor was given to men if helped with acne. Insulin therapy on schizophrenic patients helped their acne, as did zinc & B6. Be wary of B6 as it can make acne worse, that's why I didnt risk that.

Vitamin A levels rise in serum with zinc supplementation but when A was combined with zinc it didnt elevate it further.

I also believe acne sufferers are in a sort of deep hormonal homeostatic pit, once they manage to climb out usually with extreme therapy or time they can let go of regimens to a certain extent.

I'm also shocked that both dermatologist and psychiatrists don't automatically do blood work and liver biopsies on patients at initial meetings. Regional variations in zinc, copper and magnesium in water affect the skin, weight and mental states.

[LabGirl81]

I'm also shocked that both dermatologist and psychiatrists don't automatically do blood work and liver biopsies on patients at initial meetings. Regional variations in zinc, copper and magnesium in water affect the skin, weight and mental states.

I have to agree on that one. Although I think there is a great deal of knowledge among the medical professionals (mostly doctors), they usually just treat the symptons of a disease, instead of the cause of the disease. This goes not only for acne but for many other diseases.

I have been faced with the decision to go to medical school, and sometimes reconsider my discision not to. I even went so far as to take the MCATS a few years ago. I did well enough to get into a good medical school, but eventually decided not to go.

I think of most diseases (with the exception of opportunistic infections like colds, flu’s, strep throat) in a holistic point of view, which as a scientist makes almost no sense (holistic...meaning whole body). I think that many diseases are caused by something that's not right in the body (mental illness, arthritis, heart disease, diabetes, autoimmune diseases like MS..ect). Rather than just treating the symptoms, I think it's better to treat whatever is causing the problem in the first place (not necessarily with herbs and supplements). Most of the time medical research is focused on finding drugs to treat the symptoms, not actually correct the root cause of the disease. As far as acne goes...there's something they're missing...we know how to get rid of the bacteria that cause the inflammation, we have drugs that thin the epidermis and regulate the desquamation and keratinization processes, to prevent pores from plugging up with cellular debris. We even have drugs to reduce sebum production by 90%. But scientists still can't agree on what actually causes the formation of the microcomedo, and why the desquamation and keratinization of skin cells processes go awry in the first place.

I'm not some health nut and I'm not going to go drinking cups of olive oil and lemon juice and eating magnesium sulfate to try to get rid of my acne without drugs, because the drugs work. I'm not ever going to give up any one type of food for the fear of breaking out (especially milk, and chocolate)...but I truly think that they're missing something.....

[L8302]

Thanks for the reply.

LabGirl, I hear you on the holistic approach. Medical professions seem to be in a narrow frame of mind in tackling all or most health issues at a superficial level without bothering to look for the root problem. If I wasn't a philosophy student I would probably still be oblivious to questionable fundamental metaphysical and epistemological assumptions that science as a whole (in the West, at least) rests on...

It's really a shame that there hasn't been a significant advancement towards a marriage of traditional medicine and holistic philosophy. The scientific community is too stubborn to question its fundamental method and open itself up to new perspectives (even the advent of the quantum theory couldn't shake the bullheaded bedrock...) It seems to me that acne is a natural indication that something is awry in one's body...

And then there's the question of treatment. I wish so desperately to continue on the path of using only "natural" products on my skin such as jojoba oil, tea tree oil, etc. but I don't think it's improving the condition of my skin any. In fact, I was told today (after 2 weeks of using natural ingredients) that I looked "aged" from an acquaintence I hadn't seen since the beginning of January. Perhaps just a coincidental testimony (maybe I'm just tired-looking today) but I'm thinking it might be the skincare. I really want to return to my Estee Lauder products but I also don't want to be leeching toxins into my body. From your training, is there any determinable advantage in using "natural" simple products over commercial stuff?

And I can't use BP or retin-A because my skin flakes too much (no matter what I try). My oil-free makeup even flakes my skin (wait, should that be happening?) I am on ortho-tricylen but it's not doing a thing, except maybe exacerbating the acne and fuelling my melasma.

And a real question, to finish... do you know what the physiological difference in the cause or creation of a watery puss-filled whitehead is versus a hard-seed-filled whitehead? (They're not just difference stages of the whitehead are they?) I know all zits have a "pit" but some seem to produce watery puss and others hard puss... wondered if there was a causal difference...

Thanks for the info as always, any kind of reply would be appreciated.

More satisfied... hesitant to say I've arrived at satisfaction island though.

Given that you seem to have investigated skin so thoroughly... might I ask what you would recommend to remedy or alleviate acne--by way of external regimen or otherwise? Are you listening LabGirl? Any ideas?

I'm sure you've graced other forums with this knowledge before, but I know not where to look...

Thanks O Wise One(s)

~L

Assuming that this isn't scarcastic.....

No not yet...although I'm 100% clear, I'm not one to go preaching to others about how to get rid of their acne. There are way too many variables and I'm not a dermatologist. I've found great success combining topical retinoids with BP (I also take birth control pills), but that's just me....and that works for my type of acne.

I'm a cosmetic chemist, and while I do know a decent amount about skin and skincare (I have a masters degree in Cosmetic Science).... I'm not a magician, I don't have the fountain of youth or cure to acne somewhere in my lab, I'm not a makeup artist, or whatever else it is that people think cosmetic chemists actaully do....

I am considering going back to school so I can research it though....with more emphisis on actually what causes acne (we still don't know exactly what triggers the formation of microcomedoes, which is the beginning of all acne lesions), rather that a way to cure it....I think once we find out what causes it a cure won't be too far away.....Until then I have my retin-a and BP....

[Daz!]

I'm not some health nut and I'm not going to go drinking cups of olive oil and lemon juice and eating magnesium sulfate to try to get rid of my acne without drugs, because the drugs work. I'm not ever going to give up any one type of food for the fear of breaking out (especially milk, and chocolate)...but I truly think that they're missing something.....

I agree that treating yourself with something because you think that may be the problem can just compound the problem.

I think the problem with food is that its never the same in vitamin/mineral/toxin composition in different regions.
Milk in one country is different from milk in another, especialLy with respect to iodine used as cow feed and udder cleansing.
Drinking water varies.
Food farmed near the sea is different from that inland.
How many times have we heard 'I went on holiday' or 'I moved' and my acne cleared up.
You have to do blood work or mineral taste tests to see what your lacking or have an excess of.

Sebum production goes crazy at puberty and at times of stress, but something is inflamming it.
Genetically we all react differently to food composition.
For instance those of european jewish descent can build up excess copper, even develop Wilson's disease.
The symptoms of this are misdiagnosed as alcoholism, hepatitis, schizoprena, and in mild cases acne.
Masturbation and too much sex is viewed as a myth, and if focussing on that alone as a cause it is. But if you have copper toxicity then too much ejaculation will make it worse.

Stress used to be a myth but has now (since 2003) been recognised as an aggravator of acne.

As we can see diet, sex, caffeine and all the myths as usual have a basis. We are only seeing the mythical smoke, it us up to the real passionate scientific detective to find the fire.

[gloriousbach]

I'm unconvinced about the validity of the experiment, but again thanks for doing it Bryan as I am too lazy to!

My own personal feeling as someone who is very oily but switched from using the harsher cetaphil to the gentle one, is that the gentle one washes my face just as well, but doesn't overstrip my face of the moisture content that it needs.

After washing with the harsh cetaphul I would ALWAYS have to moisturise my face which didn't help matters. Using cetaphil gentle, I NEVER need to use a moisturiser and prefer it that way. In my opinoin if you are naturally oily, and your cleanser forces you to have to mosturise after, your cleanser is too strong.

Does using cetaphil gentle decrease my oil production? I still think it does from my own experience, but it is clear how much myth and stupidity is propagated by supposedly learned individuals like derms...

Us acne sufferers need to face up to the fact that acne is way down on the list of priorities and interests of most dermatologists, who would rather be dealing with melanomas and other "proper" skin science.

[F.U. Murad]

[quote name='gloriousbach' date='Jan 25 2006, 10:47 AM' post='945054']
After washing with the harsh cetaphul I would ALWAYS have to moisturise my face which didn't help matters. Using cetaphil gentle, I NEVER need to use a moisturiser and prefer it that way. In my opinoin if you are naturally oily, and your cleanser forces you to have to mosturise after, your cleanser is too strong.

GB, you have answered a question that I just posted about dry skin. I am naturally oily as well and I decided to ditch my moisturizer (thank you Bryan). Well, now my face is tight and dry (dehydrated). I wanted to know how to alleviate this problem and because of your post, I'm thinking that maybe my cleanser is too harsh for me.

[Daz!]

After washing with the harsh cetaphul I would ALWAYS have to moisturise my face which didn't help matters. Using cetaphil gentle, I NEVER need to use a moisturiser and prefer it that way. In my opinoin if you are naturally oily, and your cleanser forces you to have to mosturise after, your cleanser is too strong.

GB, you have answered a question that I just posted about dry skin. I am naturally oily as well and I decided to ditch my moisturizer (thank you Bryan). Well, now my face is tight and dry (dehydrated). I wanted to know how to alleviate this problem and because of your post, I'm thinking that maybe my cleanser is too harsh for me.

I'm totally confused, I thought you guys were trying to say that washing made your skin more oily and yet you are complaining of dry skin from washing?

[F.U. Murad]

Daz, I do not believe that I have ever said that washing made my face more oily. I believe what I said was that I was always under the impression, that overwashing would cause your skin to respond by producing more oil. I have never personally experienced that but I believed it to be true. Therefore I always used a moisturizer to prevent that from happening.

After I read a majority of Bryan's post, I realized that I was incorrect in my belief. I now know that oil production is constant whether I apply a moisturizer or not. I stopped using a moisturizer a few days ago and now I am experiencing dry "dehydrated" skin. I have never had that problem before.

I was just stating to GB that maybe the solution to my problem would be to find a gentler wash. What would you recommend?

[Daz!]

Daz, I do not believe that I have ever said that washing made my face more oily. I believe what I said was that I was always under the impression that overwashing would cause your skin to respond by producing more oil. I have never personally experienced that but I believed it to be true. Therefore I always used a moisturizer to prevent that from happening.

After I read a majority of Bryan's post, I realized that I was incorrect in my belief. I now know that oil production is constant whether I apply a moisturizer or not. I stopped using a moisturizer a few days ago and now I am experiencing dry "dehydrated" skin. I have never had that problem before.

That's cool, sorry I really should've said Glorious Bach who said...

Does using cetaphil gentle decrease my oil production? I still think it does from my own experience, but it is clear how much myth and stupidity is propagated by supposedly learned individuals like derms...

When the feedback theory being defended by some in this thread says more sebum is produced through washing.

What you are seeing is TEWL due to your barrier being damaged. Labgirl talks about this. It's why cleansing should be as quick and infrequent as possible. Time is a great healer as the Jan Carlo thread shows. Also your face after washing given enough time will not look so dry. Wash b4 breakfast when getting up and then check if your face needs moisturising before going out. If so use a tiny amount of moisturiser.

My face is dry (but not flaky) after cleansing, about an hour later it doesn't look dry.


Sorry I noticed you are using Retinol which is drying and definitely a factor.

[F.U. Murad]

Thank you for your response, Daz. I am very interested in your opinions because I actually agree with what you are saying. I admit that I am ignorant when it comes to proper skincare. We have all been programmed to believe one thing when the truth may be something else.

Being that I am using a retinol, does that mean that I HAVE to use a moisturizer? I am thinking that the answer will be yes.

[Daz!]

Thank you for your response, Daz. I am very interested in your opinions because I actually agree with what you are saying. I admit that I am ignorant when it comes to proper skincare. We have all been programmed to believe one thing when the truth may be something else.

Being that I am using a retinol, does that mean that I HAVE to use a moisturizer? I am thinking that the answer will be yes.

I've never used topical retinoids so I can't really comment, but studies tend to show it's pretty good. Studies show it to be effective but irritation and scaling can be a problem. Not sure if that retinol in a beauty product is medically effective though, % is important?
I'd say use a salicylic acid cleanser instead of the one you are using such as Neutrogenas oil free face wash. It will get rid of scaliness and red irritation and prep your pores for the retinol. Maybe you are sensitive to it though? Even though skin wil be 'dry' it won't be scaly with salicylic acid. You have to massage it on damp face and neck for 30 seconds to a minute and then thooughly rinse off with water.
I don't care about dryness its scaliness, which is confused with dryness, that I hated, and salicylic acid sorted that out when I was using tea tree oil as well.
I'm not happy about leaving anything on my face, when I do I get acne cosmetica, even with non-comedogenic stuff. So I dont use any moisturiser. Sorry i'm not much help. Labgirl's regimen uses a topical retinoid so she may have better advice.

[F.U. Murad]

Thanks, I have actually used Neutrogena Oil Free Acne Wash along with BP for years and it never irritated my skin. I have some of that under my sink right now. I personally prefer Biore' Unclogging Pore Scrub over the wash by Neutrogena. Even though they claim that the Biore' is a scrub, the extremely tiny beads that are in that product doesn't classify it as a scrub to me. I have a bottle of that as well. Could I use that instead? It is a 2% salicylic acid product as well.

LabGirl stressed the importance of water intake and essential fatty acids, which I drink plenty of water and I take a Flax, Fish and Borage Oil supplement everyday.

[Daz!]

Thanks, I have actually used Neutrogena Oil Free Acne Wash along with BP for years and it never irritated my skin. I have some of that under my sink right now. I personally prefer Biore' Unclogging Scrub over the wash by Neutrogena. Even though they claim that the Biore' is a scrub, the extremely tiny beads that are in that product doesn't classify it as a scrub to me. I have a bottle of that as well. Could I use that instead? It is a 2% salicylic acid product as well.

The finger tips are good enough. Beads, etc can cause damage and get lodged in enlarged pores or rip them.
I used the Neutrogenas facial wash and switched when I ran out to Neutrogenas body clear body wash for the face even though it says you shouldnt. having checked the ingredients there was little difference. The bodywash was cheaper and bigger and I actually prefered it.
I wet shave just with water and a single blade safety razor before cleansing now. I have non-acne friends who like the salicylic acid body wash, both use it on face and one even uses it as an anti-dandruff shampoo They've had no problems though they use it once a day.

[F.U. Murad]

Funny thing is, I had been using my face wash on my body! I figured I wasn't going to need it any longer so I decided to use it as a body wash. And I have noticed that some anti-dandruff shampoos active ingredient is salicylic acid. Go figure.

I guess my next question would be your opinion on sunscreens. Do you not think that they are necessary?

[Daz!]

Funny thing is, I had been using my face wash on my body! I figured I wasn't going to need it any longer so I decided to use it as a body wash. And I have noticed that some anti-dandruff shampoos active ingredient is salicylic acid. Go figure.

I guess my next question would be your opinion on sunscreens. Do you not think that they are necessary?

I would not. Most non-acne sufferers break out from sunscreens on the face.
Wear a hat and stay in the shade.
They are also being linked to skin cancer as well. People who use sunscreens tend to get skin cancer, whether this is the false sense of security it gives them so they avoid shade or the ingredients, who knows?

[LabGirl81]

And a real question, to finish... do you know what the physiological difference in the cause or creation of a watery puss-filled whitehead is versus a hard-seed-filled whitehead? (They're not just difference stages of the whitehead are they?) I know all zits have a "pit" but some seem to produce watery puss and others hard puss... wondered if there was a causal difference...

Thanks for the info as always, any kind of reply would be appreciated.

A puss filled pimple (no matter how small) is not a whitehead (eventhough it has a white head....go figure). If it has pus inside it's considered an inflammatory lesion (a pustule). This means that enough bacteria porliferated in the clogged pore to trigger an immune response. Pus is an accumulation of dead white blood cells (ewww... gross). Inflammatory acne is usually triggered by deeper blockages in the pores, as opposed to non-inflammatory acne (blackeheads and whiteheads). A true whitehead is a closed comedo. That means that surface of the comedo is completely covered by skin. A comedo is just a plug of dead cellular debris and sebum. A blackhead is what happens when the surface of a comedo is exposed to air and it's contents oxidize, and turn black.

A hardned "whitehead" can either be caused by a healed inflammatory lesion, or just a large comedo. If an inflammatory lesion does not rupture, the puss can become dehydrated, leaving behind a white plug inside the pore. If it's a just large comedo (the plug is usually harder and smaller), than the plug is just dead skin cells and sebum.....

A way to tell the difference.....If there is any tenderness, redness, or swelling of any kind associated with it (no matter how small it is) it's an inflammatory one. If it just appears as a tiny hard white bump....it's a whitehead.....

[bryan]

I'm unconvinced about the validity of the experiment, but again thanks for doing it Bryan as I am too lazy to!

GB, I'd be intriqued to hear why you doubt the validity of the experiment.

Bryan

[bryan]

GB, you have answered a question that I just posted about dry skin. I am naturally oily as well and I decided to ditch my moisturizer (thank you Bryan). Well, now my face is tight and dry (dehydrated). I wanted to know how to alleviate this problem and because of your post, I'm thinking that maybe my cleanser is too harsh for me.

I don't see anything wrong with using a moisturizer, as long as it's used for the right reason. As LabGirl said herself recently, the purpose of a moisturizer is to moisturize. If you're really having such problems, then I think you should go back to using one, or switch to a milder cleanser, or both. I just don't want people to assume that a moisturizer has any effect on sebum production.

Bryan

[F.U. Murad]

GB, you have answered a question that I just posted about dry skin. I am naturally oily as well and I decided to ditch my moisturizer (thank you Bryan). Well, now my face is tight and dry (dehydrated). I wanted to know how to alleviate this problem and because of your post, I'm thinking that maybe my cleanser is too harsh for me.

I don't see anything wrong with using a moisturizer, as long as it's used for the right reason. As LabGirl said herself recently, the purpose of a moisturizer is to moisturize. If you're really having such problems, then I think you should go back to using one, or switch to a milder cleanser, or both. I just don't want people to assume that a moisturizer has any effect on sebum production.

Bryan

Thank you Bryan. It was a misunderstanding on my part . You gave me the same answer as LabGirl. I guess great minds think alike! I would like to know your skincare regimen and the products that you use. Also, what is your opinion on jojoba oil used as a moisturizer? How do you feel about the use of sunscreens?