1413 replies to this topic

[mc]

I just got my syringes in. Wow they're thin and sharp. I almost pricked my finger by touching the ends of one. Anyways, I'm afraid I can now peirce real deep with these syringes. I am wondering how deep I should peirce. I know that Des Fernandes said the deeper the better but is there a limit? How far should i be peircing into my skin? I want to make sure I do everything right next time I do this. When we have this whole procedure worked out we should make a thorough list on what to do and ask the webmaster, dan, to post it up.



Tamara - I loook forward to seeing some new pics...

[Maya]

I don't remember reading that we should go in too deep. I thought ust enough to break down the scar tissue?

Since your needles are so fine, have you considered going in at an angle from around 1 cm way? That seems to be what subsicion does - they break up under the scar rather than on the scar. worth an experiment perhaps?

[mc]

http://www.uclm.es/inabis2000/posters/file...073/session.htm

last line, third paragraph
"It may be that with deeper penetration into the dermis, better collagen and elastin deposition will be obtained. "

[Maya]

Thanks MC!!!!

I guess it will be easier to go deeper with the syringes now. I better get my act together and get some!

[Henry]

MY EXPERIENCE THUS FAR

Two days ago I decided to give it a shot. I was very careful and deliberate, it's better to do too little and know what you might need to aim for the next time rather than to make a mistake you can't take back.

The scar was a pinprick scar, about .5mm in diameter. It was discolored, which I am pretty sure was from the shadow of the depression. I used a sewing pin, first cleaned with an antibacterial agent, and inserted the pin about 1.5-2mm into the center of the scar, enough to draw blood. I didn't hear a papery sound of scar tissue being hit, although I might have hit it and simply not recognized the sound. Anyway, upon seeing blood, I removed the pin and applied a bit more of the antibacterial agent to the wound site and some neosporin (which I have applied 2-3 times daily in the days since to make sure I was not left with a serious cleft).

There has been some debate over whether you need the wound to scab, but I'm not sure. I don't know whether the doctors who perform this recommend it or not. My understanding is that scabbing is a result of excess blood, so I worried that in order to create a wound that scabbed, I would have to go TOO deep and make matters worse.

Where am I two days later?

I have not received the results the others have. I don't know whether it is a fuction of my conservative technique, the nature of the scar I was treating, or some other unidentified factor of which I am at this point unaware. The tiny circular depression of the scar has not changed, it is simply redder. I expect that after a few days, the excess redness will go away and the scar (especially with the careful use of Neosporin) will look as it did before.

I think if it was going to work for me, I would have seen something already, because people should in theory get an immediate effect from the blood underneath the skin plumping up the scar. The blood is there, since the wound is red, but no change at all in the texture of the scar when looking at it in the kind of light necessary to see the depth of scars.

So, my own experiment, as long as the scar returns to normal and does not remain worse in appearance, will have been a wash.

Such a fine line between being a pessimist and a realist with these things. Please, if anyone can point out something I did wrong or anything else I might want to consider, your input would be welcome and greatly appreciated. All your support would be valuable (special thanks to Maya for her words thus far).

I don't know whether this should be the end of the road for me with this technique, that's an area where input would be most valued.

Thanks for reading my post and I hope that in describing my experience and asking for ideas that what I've said has helped someone somewhere.

[mc]

If your scar is discolored that means its not fully matured. I too tried it on one of my discolor scars. It didn't make a sound like the other scars that I had. In fact, it was soft and when i pricked it i tried to pull the needle out and the needle was stuck to the skin. Literally, I had to pull it out. You can't just prick it once or twice but several times. And you need to twirl so you make a cone shape where the peak is the entrance of the needle and the bottom is the cross section that the needle rotates upon. The idea is to break up the scar tissue beneath the scar, not just poke through it. As for scabs, it really has nothing to do with the blood that comes out of the pierce points. You're suppose to clean the blood that draws out of the area. The scab that might form appears a day to several days after and its mostly clear, not dark red like a typical scab that you get when you cut yourself. I didn't even know there was a scab on my scar until i physically passed my fingers over it. It felt rougher than the surrounding skin. Scabs are good, by all means. Ask any doctor. You should never, ever pick a scab. If a scab appears, you should just apply an ointment like moisturizer, vitamin (a, e, c), copper peptide complex, etc... Let the body do the work. As long as it takes for the scar to naturally fall off by itself. I can see that Maya and I have been the ones experimenting and succesfull so far with this. People should post if they have any doubts or questions before the procedure. This is something that you can't do all the time, you do it and wait about a month to do it again. The next time i do this i will be more prepared and more confident.

[Henry]

Interesting post, MC.

I think the kind of scab you are talking about is a relatively clear, thin crust of sorts. I do feel a bit of that developing, but I because the Neosporin to heal the cleft is a moisturizer, it makes it harder for the crust to develop or delays it.

There are a few ways to get the crust by drying the wound out. My concern would be that it would be detrimental to healing the puncture wound to the epidermis caused by the needle hole.

Your point about newer scars is well taken. I did sort of have to pull the sewing pin out. I tried it on a very new scar. But pinprick scars appears discolored, in my experience, because of the ice-pick effect rather than because of actual hyperpigmentation or erythema within the scar. For example, I have a thin but pronounced linear scar above one of my eyes that looks dark as if hyperpigmented. I once got elbowed during a soccer game and the area swelled a bit and the scar appeared not only shallower, but had no appearance of discoloration. That's why I tend to think that the appearance of a dark color is mostly attributable to the effects of lack of proper collagen support beneath the epidermis, but I'm no doctor.

At any rate, I am still taking a wait and see approach with the feeling that this didn't work this time.

I think that the success several of you have achieved (and your willingness to share tricks of the trade) is great, and I agree 100% with one of the posters' ideas that after some more experience we can all come up with a set of guidelines available for those willing to try it.

[Maya]

Henry

MC is quit right of course - the older the scar, the better it seems to work! Also, your I needle prick is very conservative LOL! I must've pricked a good 5 times even on the smallest of scars and around 10/20 times on the bigger ones! I kinda went with the attitude, well, I can't scar a scar! so really went for it until i couldn't prick anymore.

I'm not meant to be on this board - I'm in the middle of an important assignment but just had to come and say hi to everyone!

MC - I have just ordered some of that Copeer Peptide serum - said it will take 2-8 weeks for delivery! How is it for you?

[mc]

Hey Henry, i agree with Maya, i think you're going at it too conservatively. I mean you have to be carefull but you need to prick it a bunch of times and twirl it to mimic what the tatoo needling does. The tatoo needle makes hundreds of holes per second. The only difference is that it doesn't twirl, it just pricks.

I apply this Scar FX cream 2-3 times a day on my scars. It's new, i found it on drugstore.com and it has Copper Peptides in it along with a myriad of other stuff. At night I apply Neova Night Therapy with Copper Peptide GHK complex. I heard about it on skinbiology.com which BarBQue dood pointed to me. I also ordered it from drugstore.com. It should be especially helpful when i do my needling again. By then it'll be 3 weeks passed and there should be enough of the copper peptides in my skin to actually assist in the breaking down of scar tissue and promotion of elastisin and collagen. Only 0.1% of copper peptides are absorbed into the inner dermis which is enough. It should then promote the synthesis of mRNA for protiens that break down scar tissue. I know im getting technical but all in all its suppose to make a difference. Hopefully my wounds will heal quicker too after pricking seeing that copper peptides also increase the rate of recovery by a day or two. Ontop of applying all this copper peptide stuff i also use %30 glycolic acid every week.


As i oberve my scars. I have these small saucer shaped scars that i pricked on the side of my head and they appear much better. If they improve the same rate after each needling, then i guestimate that they should be unnoticeable after 2 more pricks. However, i have these two small ice pick type scars on my forehead. They don't look that much better but one of them has this piece of skin elevated in the middle making it look like two smaller ones. I guese its because i stimulated that area better than the other parts. After each prick it gets hard to find a new place to prick because of all the redness and swelling.

[Maya]

well, I am based in the UK - so it was international shipping. Maybe I should have tried to locate a UK supplier but I got lazy. I ordered the stuff from www.homepeels.com and I also ordered some lactic peels (just to try something new!)

[Henry]

Thanks everyone for the input.

I think it's important to start conservatively to better understand my tolerance. I will continue to post my progress (nothing much different today than yesterday) and I understand that people will judge how I do differently than less timid souls.

It's good we can all discuss this.

[Maya]

Henry, Eyesis, MC - etc..... where are you all from?



Henry

I guess a lot of what we are doing is through trial and error. I am glad you have taken a different approach to some of us - that way, we all can increase our knowledge about what is and isn't working - and try and find out the reasons why.

One thing that I have faith in though, is that at some stage we will find a way to be rid of the scarring - faith is so important in this, otherwise it would be esy to give up hope.

Anyway, I think you are very brave, I know how apprehensive you were in the first place.

[Henry]

Maya--I am American. Just across the river from Philadelphia (the birthplace of American democracy).

I think what you say about faith (however each person interprets it, of course) is true. I think we need to find the strength somewhere to deal with all these things. I think it's good to find some here where we are with other people who can commisserate.

I am in my fifth day. Nothing much new to report. Still looks like the old scar, just a bit redder (as is the surrounding skin, although not as much as the scar). I do think the opaque crust is forming, but it's slow because I am very fastidious about using Neosporin to make sure the puncture of the pin itself heals.

*I am also leaving for a trip (business, not fun at all) in the morning and will be gone for nearly two weeks, so I wish you all well in the interim and I hope this thread is doubled in size by the time I get back, and filled with new insights and positive experiences from some happy campers. Obviously, by then, I will be able to probably give a more definitive assessment of how my own little experiment worked out.

Take care everyone,
Henry

[Maya]

Eyesis
Wow, you are getting really prepared. I like your style...!!!
I haven't been to Greece but I have been to most parts of Europe - I love Itally!!!!! Pointers for England - well, of of course London is a very cool and cosmopolitan place (I went to University there and lived there for many years)

I live around 3 hours north of London now, in the West Midlands - it's a good place to bring kids up (I have non-identical twin boys who are nearly 10)

Yes - that other thread where everyone is worried is funny - the funny thing is them thinking that we are going to get blood poisining! People who sew are always pricking their fingers - they don't get any poisining - Imagine if there was some health warning supplied wih a pack of needles!!!!LOL!! That makes me laugh.

Henry
Hey, have a good trip.

I guess, you will be able to judge whether your first attempt was successful or not by the time you get back. Maybe be a little wilder nest time! LOL!!

Sometimes I think it's the girls who take more risks, but even saying that, even though some of my attempts were pretty rough, no adverse affects have taken place, so at least you have our experience.

It's been around 2 weeks (I think) since I started needling - and a couple of my nastiest indents - they really look so much better - they are now more like pot holes rather than the black hole of calcutta!

[njacobs]

Sorry, but I really think you guys are off your rockers. You have taken an experimental technique and bastardized it with sewing needles and syringes. You are setting yourself up for further damaged skin and infection. You have already read the other thread, so this is all I will say about it. Take care of yourselves and above all, be safe. I am seeing my derm within a month. I will run your technique past him to see what he has to say. Peace...

[Maya]

Peace to you too njacobs

So, it's OK for a derm to stick a needle in you but not yourself?

My dad is a retired derm and my brother is a surgeon, my sister and brother in law are family docs/general practitioners.

I am not off my rocker, I assure you - I happen to be more experimental than some others maybe.

I was brought up reading medical journals like the BMJ and the Lancet - perhaps I am less afraid of procedures because of this.

If you have read the earlier threads and links - you will see that this procedure has only been commercially available for around 2 years - your derm, unless he is a specialist in this area will know nothing of this - so whatever he/she says will just be an opinion.

[Maya]

This is an update from Yumi on the healthboards

I asked him/her waht she reccomends after a need ling session:

The reply was:

maya, firstly i need to say that i'm not qualified to offer any advice on topical applications cos everybody reacts differently to different treatmments. so i'll just tell ya what i'm doing now. who knows.. this might be far from the best method for healing. this is what i read and am doing now. very simplified summary below:

keep wound absolutely dry, from water that is. but keep it moist with ointment first 2-3 days approx. just a light covering, enough to lightly moist and let skin breathe, not suffocate it. any ointment, preferably non antibiotical. eg neosporin. reason being such ointments also kill good bacteria that aids in healing. high potency vit serums also not recommended. they over accelerate healing in a haphazard manner. apply as often when wound feels dry.

on the fourth day or something lose the oinment for lotion, preferably non fragranced. again light application, just enought to moisturize. till skin heals completely.

no sun, soaking in water, scrubbing, picking on scabs for 30 days. that's about it.

[Beth]

Hi all,
I read a recommendation on another board about how to find someone in the medical field to try this scar treatment method on me. She said to look for a makeup artist who works in a doctor's office. I found a bunch of nurse/makeup artists listed on a website. I emailed the one closest to me and they responded very quickly. They told me that they were VERY familiar with needling as they have done it several times. I am going to go for a consultation and test treatment next month. Wish me luck, Beth

[Maya]

Beth

That's great!!!!!!! Please keep us informed.

In fact, this is how needling was discovered: a plastic surgeon had to perform some re-constructive surgery on a woman - which left her with extra scarring and a lot of discolouration. The plastic surgeon wanted to do something about the discolouration, so emplyed a tatoo artist to colour in the discolouration on the womans face.

A few months later, on a check up, the surgeon noticed that the pigment had faded, but all the area that had been tatooed was scar free and very smooth! So, it went on from there...

I too am having a proper, full face tatoo type session at a beauty clinic in January - the therpaist isn't getting her new machine until then.

Yes, I suppose someone who does permanant makeup would have the right kind of skills.

Hey - Good luck.

[Beth]

The nurse/permanent makeup artist is located about 3.5 hours away from me, but that is still about 5 hours closer than the doc in Canada who offers this. I can do the 3.5 hour drive (each way) in a day. I'd need to set aside too much time to go see the Canadian super-doc. I just cannot afford to do that right now with the holidays fast approaching. I hope this lady can help me. I am canceling the dermatologist appointment I had recently made, and going to see her first. I'll keep you all posted. Regards, Beth