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Skin Needling/Needle Dermabrasion
Started by Maya, Oct 21 2002 06:38 AM
1413 replies to this topic
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Posted 20 July 2008 - 04:25 PM
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Posted 01 August 2008 - 11:46 PM
Hi guys, I just did needling last thursday at a doctor's office, it's been 8 days and my skin still looks patchy pink with some tanned color and rough texture. Things have not been healing much at all for the past 2 days it seems like! Is that normal??? How long does it take for the skin to totally recover and look normal???
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Posted 03 August 2008 - 02:57 PM
"I make most of my own products now. But I have used these below which work well.
Here is a sample of a treatment protocol. This can be individualized as I said according to your needs, types of scarring, types of needling, saline injection, skin sensitivity etc. At any time you become more inflammed then something is wrong. Stop all products and just us HA and aquaphor until improvement.
PRODUCTS (Walgreens, online sources etc)
CERA VE CLEANSER - These have the right combo of lipids, ceramides and sterols for healing
CERA VE LOTION or CREAM - I like the lotion but the cream is more protective but could be problematic for breakouts for some people.
SPENCO 2nd SKIN QUICK HEAL - (or any other good hyaluronic acid product, need at least 1% solution HA)
AQUAPHOR or VASELINE ( This is your best barrier protection for the initial wounding)
SKIN BIOLOGY COPPER PEPTIDES
RETIN A , or TAZORAC (or some other retinoids like APeel Daily etc.)
302 DROPS -- Expensive but lasts a long time--or can use a mixture of avocado oil/plus sunflower oil for linoleic acid and even Emu oil mixed here with these oils is fine. (Do not use Emu Oil alone it is not enough barrier protection). 302 Drops will also give protein synthesis important in repair ( this is not collagen synthesis) and has the smallest molecular weight to reach the dermis. The oils will just replace the lipids needed for proper wound healing. You can use a mixture of 302 drops, HA and the oils and aquaphor also for a nice barrier protection.
GROWTH FACTORS- One of the these
Colostrum (cheaper and has numerous growth factors) You can mix a little with the Cera Ve lotion at the time of application.
EGF- www.skinactives.com - a little is all you need follow their instructuions. You can use the Cera Ve lotion to mix this with or buy their Canvas Cream Or their Sea Kelp Bioferment to mix with.
NEOCUTIS -expensive but all all the growth facotrs you need
TNS- also expensive and only has 4 growth factors.
BACTROBAN ANTIBIOTIC OINTMENT - is best but you could use Polysporin
HYDROCORTISONE OINTMENT/CREAM - for prolong inflammation 1-2% formula -Only use if needed- If you are still very red/sore after 1-3 weeks then apply some. Use very little just enough to kick in other bio/processes for healing otherwise cortisone will destroy the collagen you are trying to make.
TX. PROTOCOL POST NEEDLING;
Apply HA first then a tiny bit of Aquaphor on top.
2 hours later apply more HA then add the Bactroban ointment on top. Keep the wound moist at all times during the healing process. This is the only time you apply an antibiotic unless infection sets in.
After 4-6 hours add more HA and Aquaphor keep this up until the next day.
NOTE -SOME people who are working on very Fibrous Scars can begin CP's within 2 hours after wounding to help breakdown the scar tissue. You will NOT use Bactroban here then. You will want to use CP's throughout the healing phase to break this up. You may not have good collagen placement but this should improve in your next needling session if you don't use the cp's anymore during remodeling phase.
CP's during the entire healing phase is best used on box scars and fibrous pits, not rolling scars.
24 hours later
Cleanse genetly if needed, tepid water is best here or a mix of vinegar and water.
Apply HA to the wound then mix some HA with Aquapor plus CeraVe Lotion and add 1-2 drops of 302 serum. I begin using 302 and CP's 24-48 hours after wounding depending on my skins' reaction to the wounding. I add a few drops of CP to the HA apply first then apply the above mixtue of lipids and barrier protection. Also at this point for those not using 302 drops you may add the Growth Factors here( colostrum I think is the most benign to use at this point no additives to torment the skin, ie preservatives,glycols etc. ) but be careful not to inlfame the skin. Tiny amounts do wonders. For those not understanding the wounding phases it may be best to delay growth factors until the skin has recovered some, ie a few days later.
Note CP's will increase wound repair time by increasing gelatinases(MMP's) and deposit substances needed to make the ECM (extracellular matrix). The ECM response is what we want so this is why I only use it for a week after wounding.
48 -72 hours later
Cleanse- may add Cera Ve Cleanser if skin tolerates, if too sensitive still then use vinegar/water combo
Repeat the above but add Growth Factors as tolerated. Apply HA then Growth Factors, then the barrier protection. HA is the medium used for communication between cells in wounds, so this always is first. Keep this up until epithilialization has occured 7-10 days.
7-10 Days
Begin Retinoids mix with CP's if you are removing fibrous scars and apply at Night only.
Others will need to stop CP's here if you want better collagen placement. Keep using the other products and apply as needed.
AM
Cleanse with Cera Ve cleanser ( this cleanser is non foaming and super gentle it will not remove makeup or sunscreen)This cleanser or other mild cleansers must be used in the first 2 weeks at least. No harsh chemicals please. Use solutions of vinegar and water if needed for deeper cleansing.
Mix HA and a few drops of 302 and growth factors apply to wounds then apply Cera Ve Cream or Lotion as needed
Sunscreen, Hat etc
If you expose your skin to the sun now you have just negated all that you did! However I do believe non chemical suncreens(zincs-titanium dioxide etc Shesiedo 55 SPF.) are best in this early stage, the cells are very fragile.
Once the skin has healed the better sunscreens should be used, Bioderma etc, the European ones. with higher PPD's than in the US formulations www.physea.com
Settle into a routine of repair now for remodeling collagen
PM
Cleanse
Retinoids and CP or Retinoids alone
Growth Factors can be used with this too.
Switch off nights with 302 and retinoids if desired or use any combo that works for you. These products are synergystic so they can be mixed and matched.
I like the mix of Growth Facotrs and Retin A every other night and 302 Drops and Growth Factors mixed in between nights. I use 302 daily too with my lipid mix until full restoration if the epidermis has occured, 3 weeks or a month.
Remember the first layer of the skin is replaced by 7-10 days. BUT this does not mean the rest of the epidermis has been restored. OK? There are many layers to the skin and this takes time to heal.
Retinoids do not need to be used daily to be effective, if irritation occurs mix with the Cera Ve Lotion and apply. Also I just use retinoids every other day if I am usng the 302 drops and or the growth factors.
HA at this time does not need to be applied first but you will need to continue it for 21 days after wounding.
I like to mix it with my Cera Ve lotion and 302 Drops. Or Apply 302 drops first then the HA and Loton.
Stop Retinoids 1 week to 3 days before any treatments. I can use RA anytine and never stop it. But most skins are not as tough as mine. Retin A research has concluded it does increase healing and collagen placement if used at least 1 month prior to treatments. Best used at least 3-6 months prior to treatments.
Followed within 7-10 days after treatment or when the frst layer of your skin has healed, which is the stratum corneum.
Supplemets are your choice I gave you some ideas in my other posts along with a good multi/mineral. BUT the most imoortant is Beta Glucan 1/3 1/6 !! Why? Because this will stimulate the macrophages to make substances for the basement membrane and subcutis to repair. This damage to the base membrane is why you scarred in the first place. I don't know of any other supplement that stimulates macrophages so this is the best I can offer. Perhaps others can add to this. Some even use BG as a topical but in early wound healing I advise against topical use, too much stimulation is not good.
Use topical L-ascorbic acid or Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate if you have persitant redness and only when the skin has completely healed. Increase bioflavonoids and oral C if prolong redness has ocurred. Stop using CP's too this increases angiogenesis, makes your face red!. C does not increase angiogenesis but will strengthen the vascular beds (decreasing broken caps)with bio-flavonoids and remove iron deposits trapped in the skin causing red marks etc. Retinoids will also increase angiogenesis so use only a few days/week until redness subsides. You must keep using some retinoid though!
It take 3 months or more for collagen to be placed in the tissue. Collagen remodels over and over again until final palcement (end type collagen) your skin will produce. Needling should be done every 3 months not sooner than this unless your needling was very superficial. Do this more often and you will create more scar tissue.. Be patient this takes 1--3 years for some who have severe scarring.
OK I want to surf now. This is exhausting for me. I am so dyslexic and it takes me for ever to type.
Perhaps someone can take my key points and simplify this for others. I did want to explain my methods as best I could for you all to get a clearer understanding why you may not be achieving the results you desire.
Hoping the best for you all.
Take care
Shyana"
That was a qoute from shyana, i was wondering if any of you were following her aftercare protocal.
Here is a sample of a treatment protocol. This can be individualized as I said according to your needs, types of scarring, types of needling, saline injection, skin sensitivity etc. At any time you become more inflammed then something is wrong. Stop all products and just us HA and aquaphor until improvement.
PRODUCTS (Walgreens, online sources etc)
CERA VE CLEANSER - These have the right combo of lipids, ceramides and sterols for healing
CERA VE LOTION or CREAM - I like the lotion but the cream is more protective but could be problematic for breakouts for some people.
SPENCO 2nd SKIN QUICK HEAL - (or any other good hyaluronic acid product, need at least 1% solution HA)
AQUAPHOR or VASELINE ( This is your best barrier protection for the initial wounding)
SKIN BIOLOGY COPPER PEPTIDES
RETIN A , or TAZORAC (or some other retinoids like APeel Daily etc.)
302 DROPS -- Expensive but lasts a long time--or can use a mixture of avocado oil/plus sunflower oil for linoleic acid and even Emu oil mixed here with these oils is fine. (Do not use Emu Oil alone it is not enough barrier protection). 302 Drops will also give protein synthesis important in repair ( this is not collagen synthesis) and has the smallest molecular weight to reach the dermis. The oils will just replace the lipids needed for proper wound healing. You can use a mixture of 302 drops, HA and the oils and aquaphor also for a nice barrier protection.
GROWTH FACTORS- One of the these
Colostrum (cheaper and has numerous growth factors) You can mix a little with the Cera Ve lotion at the time of application.
EGF- www.skinactives.com - a little is all you need follow their instructuions. You can use the Cera Ve lotion to mix this with or buy their Canvas Cream Or their Sea Kelp Bioferment to mix with.
NEOCUTIS -expensive but all all the growth facotrs you need
TNS- also expensive and only has 4 growth factors.
BACTROBAN ANTIBIOTIC OINTMENT - is best but you could use Polysporin
HYDROCORTISONE OINTMENT/CREAM - for prolong inflammation 1-2% formula -Only use if needed- If you are still very red/sore after 1-3 weeks then apply some. Use very little just enough to kick in other bio/processes for healing otherwise cortisone will destroy the collagen you are trying to make.
TX. PROTOCOL POST NEEDLING;
Apply HA first then a tiny bit of Aquaphor on top.
2 hours later apply more HA then add the Bactroban ointment on top. Keep the wound moist at all times during the healing process. This is the only time you apply an antibiotic unless infection sets in.
After 4-6 hours add more HA and Aquaphor keep this up until the next day.
NOTE -SOME people who are working on very Fibrous Scars can begin CP's within 2 hours after wounding to help breakdown the scar tissue. You will NOT use Bactroban here then. You will want to use CP's throughout the healing phase to break this up. You may not have good collagen placement but this should improve in your next needling session if you don't use the cp's anymore during remodeling phase.
CP's during the entire healing phase is best used on box scars and fibrous pits, not rolling scars.
24 hours later
Cleanse genetly if needed, tepid water is best here or a mix of vinegar and water.
Apply HA to the wound then mix some HA with Aquapor plus CeraVe Lotion and add 1-2 drops of 302 serum. I begin using 302 and CP's 24-48 hours after wounding depending on my skins' reaction to the wounding. I add a few drops of CP to the HA apply first then apply the above mixtue of lipids and barrier protection. Also at this point for those not using 302 drops you may add the Growth Factors here( colostrum I think is the most benign to use at this point no additives to torment the skin, ie preservatives,glycols etc. ) but be careful not to inlfame the skin. Tiny amounts do wonders. For those not understanding the wounding phases it may be best to delay growth factors until the skin has recovered some, ie a few days later.
Note CP's will increase wound repair time by increasing gelatinases(MMP's) and deposit substances needed to make the ECM (extracellular matrix). The ECM response is what we want so this is why I only use it for a week after wounding.
48 -72 hours later
Cleanse- may add Cera Ve Cleanser if skin tolerates, if too sensitive still then use vinegar/water combo
Repeat the above but add Growth Factors as tolerated. Apply HA then Growth Factors, then the barrier protection. HA is the medium used for communication between cells in wounds, so this always is first. Keep this up until epithilialization has occured 7-10 days.
7-10 Days
Begin Retinoids mix with CP's if you are removing fibrous scars and apply at Night only.
Others will need to stop CP's here if you want better collagen placement. Keep using the other products and apply as needed.
AM
Cleanse with Cera Ve cleanser ( this cleanser is non foaming and super gentle it will not remove makeup or sunscreen)This cleanser or other mild cleansers must be used in the first 2 weeks at least. No harsh chemicals please. Use solutions of vinegar and water if needed for deeper cleansing.
Mix HA and a few drops of 302 and growth factors apply to wounds then apply Cera Ve Cream or Lotion as needed
Sunscreen, Hat etc
If you expose your skin to the sun now you have just negated all that you did! However I do believe non chemical suncreens(zincs-titanium dioxide etc Shesiedo 55 SPF.) are best in this early stage, the cells are very fragile.
Once the skin has healed the better sunscreens should be used, Bioderma etc, the European ones. with higher PPD's than in the US formulations www.physea.com
Settle into a routine of repair now for remodeling collagen
PM
Cleanse
Retinoids and CP or Retinoids alone
Growth Factors can be used with this too.
Switch off nights with 302 and retinoids if desired or use any combo that works for you. These products are synergystic so they can be mixed and matched.
I like the mix of Growth Facotrs and Retin A every other night and 302 Drops and Growth Factors mixed in between nights. I use 302 daily too with my lipid mix until full restoration if the epidermis has occured, 3 weeks or a month.
Remember the first layer of the skin is replaced by 7-10 days. BUT this does not mean the rest of the epidermis has been restored. OK? There are many layers to the skin and this takes time to heal.
Retinoids do not need to be used daily to be effective, if irritation occurs mix with the Cera Ve Lotion and apply. Also I just use retinoids every other day if I am usng the 302 drops and or the growth factors.
HA at this time does not need to be applied first but you will need to continue it for 21 days after wounding.
I like to mix it with my Cera Ve lotion and 302 Drops. Or Apply 302 drops first then the HA and Loton.
Stop Retinoids 1 week to 3 days before any treatments. I can use RA anytine and never stop it. But most skins are not as tough as mine. Retin A research has concluded it does increase healing and collagen placement if used at least 1 month prior to treatments. Best used at least 3-6 months prior to treatments.
Followed within 7-10 days after treatment or when the frst layer of your skin has healed, which is the stratum corneum.
Supplemets are your choice I gave you some ideas in my other posts along with a good multi/mineral. BUT the most imoortant is Beta Glucan 1/3 1/6 !! Why? Because this will stimulate the macrophages to make substances for the basement membrane and subcutis to repair. This damage to the base membrane is why you scarred in the first place. I don't know of any other supplement that stimulates macrophages so this is the best I can offer. Perhaps others can add to this. Some even use BG as a topical but in early wound healing I advise against topical use, too much stimulation is not good.
Use topical L-ascorbic acid or Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate if you have persitant redness and only when the skin has completely healed. Increase bioflavonoids and oral C if prolong redness has ocurred. Stop using CP's too this increases angiogenesis, makes your face red!. C does not increase angiogenesis but will strengthen the vascular beds (decreasing broken caps)with bio-flavonoids and remove iron deposits trapped in the skin causing red marks etc. Retinoids will also increase angiogenesis so use only a few days/week until redness subsides. You must keep using some retinoid though!
It take 3 months or more for collagen to be placed in the tissue. Collagen remodels over and over again until final palcement (end type collagen) your skin will produce. Needling should be done every 3 months not sooner than this unless your needling was very superficial. Do this more often and you will create more scar tissue.. Be patient this takes 1--3 years for some who have severe scarring.
OK I want to surf now. This is exhausting for me. I am so dyslexic and it takes me for ever to type.
Perhaps someone can take my key points and simplify this for others. I did want to explain my methods as best I could for you all to get a clearer understanding why you may not be achieving the results you desire.
Hoping the best for you all.
Take care
Shyana"
That was a qoute from shyana, i was wondering if any of you were following her aftercare protocal.
#1364
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Posted 06 August 2008 - 02:26 AM
has anybody tried dermarolling their entire face or the mostly scarred areas and then needling the scars individually in 1 treatment. like the same day? could this cause better results?
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Posted 18 August 2008 - 12:28 PM
I have that same question. bump.
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Posted 17 September 2008 - 10:07 PM
I've been doing some research on skin needling... and I want to give it a try! I can't seem to find any doctors that do it in the Atlanta Georgia area... can anyone help out?
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Posted 17 September 2008 - 11:50 PM
try lookin for top notch salons, some salons have people that do it
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Posted 18 September 2008 - 08:20 AM
QUOTE (lacon22s @ Aug 6 2008, 09:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
has anybody tried dermarolling their entire face or the mostly scarred areas and then needling the scars individually in 1 treatment. like the same day? could this cause better results?
It should do yeah, alot of derms go over the face several times. They even stop, apply more EMLA (topical anesthetic) then go again. They do this because they believe the more micro injuries you create the better.
I Do agree with this to a point, but i also believe that if you go a bit deeper than the 1.5mm standard, you will get better results. So needling with smething like 3mm 33gauge diabetic lancets is a good idea, i have 4mm ones but i use stoppers to ensure i don't go deeper than 3 mm.
Don't get me wrong i think anything more than 1.5-2mm with a dermaroller is risky because in some areas you will be getting too deep than is safe. Needling individual scars on the cheeks for instance should be fine up yo 3mm depth, but you should really get this done professionally i wouldn't recommend doing it at home (i go crazy with safety using several disinfectants and topical bactroban after i'm gone).
QUOTE (delta force operators @ Aug 3 2008, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"I make most of my own products now. But I have used these below which work well.
Here is a sample of a treatment protocol. This can be individualized as I said according to your needs, types of scarring, types of needling, saline injection, skin sensitivity etc. At any time you become more inflammed then something is wrong. Stop all products and just us HA and aquaphor until improvement.
PRODUCTS (Walgreens, online sources etc)
CERA VE CLEANSER - These have the right combo of lipids, ceramides and sterols for healing
CERA VE LOTION or CREAM - I like the lotion but the cream is more protective but could be problematic for breakouts for some people.
SPENCO 2nd SKIN QUICK HEAL - (or any other good hyaluronic acid product, need at least 1% solution HA)
AQUAPHOR or VASELINE ( This is your best barrier protection for the initial wounding)
SKIN BIOLOGY COPPER PEPTIDES
RETIN A , or TAZORAC (or some other retinoids like APeel Daily etc.)
302 DROPS -- Expensive but lasts a long time--or can use a mixture of avocado oil/plus sunflower oil for linoleic acid and even Emu oil mixed here with these oils is fine. (Do not use Emu Oil alone it is not enough barrier protection). 302 Drops will also give protein synthesis important in repair ( this is not collagen synthesis) and has the smallest molecular weight to reach the dermis. The oils will just replace the lipids needed for proper wound healing. You can use a mixture of 302 drops, HA and the oils and aquaphor also for a nice barrier protection.
GROWTH FACTORS- One of the these
Colostrum (cheaper and has numerous growth factors) You can mix a little with the Cera Ve lotion at the time of application.
EGF- www.skinactives.com - a little is all you need follow their instructuions. You can use the Cera Ve lotion to mix this with or buy their Canvas Cream Or their Sea Kelp Bioferment to mix with.
NEOCUTIS -expensive but all all the growth facotrs you need
TNS- also expensive and only has 4 growth factors.
BACTROBAN ANTIBIOTIC OINTMENT - is best but you could use Polysporin
HYDROCORTISONE OINTMENT/CREAM - for prolong inflammation 1-2% formula -Only use if needed- If you are still very red/sore after 1-3 weeks then apply some. Use very little just enough to kick in other bio/processes for healing otherwise cortisone will destroy the collagen you are trying to make.
TX. PROTOCOL POST NEEDLING;
Apply HA first then a tiny bit of Aquaphor on top.
2 hours later apply more HA then add the Bactroban ointment on top. Keep the wound moist at all times during the healing process. This is the only time you apply an antibiotic unless infection sets in.
After 4-6 hours add more HA and Aquaphor keep this up until the next day.
NOTE -SOME people who are working on very Fibrous Scars can begin CP's within 2 hours after wounding to help breakdown the scar tissue. You will NOT use Bactroban here then. You will want to use CP's throughout the healing phase to break this up. You may not have good collagen placement but this should improve in your next needling session if you don't use the cp's anymore during remodeling phase.
CP's during the entire healing phase is best used on box scars and fibrous pits, not rolling scars.
24 hours later
Cleanse genetly if needed, tepid water is best here or a mix of vinegar and water.
Apply HA to the wound then mix some HA with Aquapor plus CeraVe Lotion and add 1-2 drops of 302 serum. I begin using 302 and CP's 24-48 hours after wounding depending on my skins' reaction to the wounding. I add a few drops of CP to the HA apply first then apply the above mixtue of lipids and barrier protection. Also at this point for those not using 302 drops you may add the Growth Factors here( colostrum I think is the most benign to use at this point no additives to torment the skin, ie preservatives,glycols etc. ) but be careful not to inlfame the skin. Tiny amounts do wonders. For those not understanding the wounding phases it may be best to delay growth factors until the skin has recovered some, ie a few days later.
Note CP's will increase wound repair time by increasing gelatinases(MMP's) and deposit substances needed to make the ECM (extracellular matrix). The ECM response is what we want so this is why I only use it for a week after wounding.
48 -72 hours later
Cleanse- may add Cera Ve Cleanser if skin tolerates, if too sensitive still then use vinegar/water combo
Repeat the above but add Growth Factors as tolerated. Apply HA then Growth Factors, then the barrier protection. HA is the medium used for communication between cells in wounds, so this always is first. Keep this up until epithilialization has occured 7-10 days.
7-10 Days
Begin Retinoids mix with CP's if you are removing fibrous scars and apply at Night only.
Others will need to stop CP's here if you want better collagen placement. Keep using the other products and apply as needed.
AM
Cleanse with Cera Ve cleanser ( this cleanser is non foaming and super gentle it will not remove makeup or sunscreen)This cleanser or other mild cleansers must be used in the first 2 weeks at least. No harsh chemicals please. Use solutions of vinegar and water if needed for deeper cleansing.
Mix HA and a few drops of 302 and growth factors apply to wounds then apply Cera Ve Cream or Lotion as needed
Sunscreen, Hat etc
If you expose your skin to the sun now you have just negated all that you did! However I do believe non chemical suncreens(zincs-titanium dioxide etc Shesiedo 55 SPF.) are best in this early stage, the cells are very fragile.
Once the skin has healed the better sunscreens should be used, Bioderma etc, the European ones. with higher PPD's than in the US formulations www.physea.com
Settle into a routine of repair now for remodeling collagen
PM
Cleanse
Retinoids and CP or Retinoids alone
Growth Factors can be used with this too.
Switch off nights with 302 and retinoids if desired or use any combo that works for you. These products are synergystic so they can be mixed and matched.
I like the mix of Growth Facotrs and Retin A every other night and 302 Drops and Growth Factors mixed in between nights. I use 302 daily too with my lipid mix until full restoration if the epidermis has occured, 3 weeks or a month.
Remember the first layer of the skin is replaced by 7-10 days. BUT this does not mean the rest of the epidermis has been restored. OK? There are many layers to the skin and this takes time to heal.
Retinoids do not need to be used daily to be effective, if irritation occurs mix with the Cera Ve Lotion and apply. Also I just use retinoids every other day if I am usng the 302 drops and or the growth factors.
HA at this time does not need to be applied first but you will need to continue it for 21 days after wounding.
I like to mix it with my Cera Ve lotion and 302 Drops. Or Apply 302 drops first then the HA and Loton.
Stop Retinoids 1 week to 3 days before any treatments. I can use RA anytine and never stop it. But most skins are not as tough as mine. Retin A research has concluded it does increase healing and collagen placement if used at least 1 month prior to treatments. Best used at least 3-6 months prior to treatments.
Followed within 7-10 days after treatment or when the frst layer of your skin has healed, which is the stratum corneum.
Supplemets are your choice I gave you some ideas in my other posts along with a good multi/mineral. BUT the most imoortant is Beta Glucan 1/3 1/6 !! Why? Because this will stimulate the macrophages to make substances for the basement membrane and subcutis to repair. This damage to the base membrane is why you scarred in the first place. I don't know of any other supplement that stimulates macrophages so this is the best I can offer. Perhaps others can add to this. Some even use BG as a topical but in early wound healing I advise against topical use, too much stimulation is not good.
Use topical L-ascorbic acid or Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate if you have persitant redness and only when the skin has completely healed. Increase bioflavonoids and oral C if prolong redness has ocurred. Stop using CP's too this increases angiogenesis, makes your face red!. C does not increase angiogenesis but will strengthen the vascular beds (decreasing broken caps)with bio-flavonoids and remove iron deposits trapped in the skin causing red marks etc. Retinoids will also increase angiogenesis so use only a few days/week until redness subsides. You must keep using some retinoid though!
It take 3 months or more for collagen to be placed in the tissue. Collagen remodels over and over again until final palcement (end type collagen) your skin will produce. Needling should be done every 3 months not sooner than this unless your needling was very superficial. Do this more often and you will create more scar tissue.. Be patient this takes 1--3 years for some who have severe scarring.
OK I want to surf now. This is exhausting for me. I am so dyslexic and it takes me for ever to type.
Perhaps someone can take my key points and simplify this for others. I did want to explain my methods as best I could for you all to get a clearer understanding why you may not be achieving the results you desire.
Hoping the best for you all.
Take care
Shyana"
That was a qoute from shyana, i was wondering if any of you were following her aftercare protocal.
Here is a sample of a treatment protocol. This can be individualized as I said according to your needs, types of scarring, types of needling, saline injection, skin sensitivity etc. At any time you become more inflammed then something is wrong. Stop all products and just us HA and aquaphor until improvement.
PRODUCTS (Walgreens, online sources etc)
CERA VE CLEANSER - These have the right combo of lipids, ceramides and sterols for healing
CERA VE LOTION or CREAM - I like the lotion but the cream is more protective but could be problematic for breakouts for some people.
SPENCO 2nd SKIN QUICK HEAL - (or any other good hyaluronic acid product, need at least 1% solution HA)
AQUAPHOR or VASELINE ( This is your best barrier protection for the initial wounding)
SKIN BIOLOGY COPPER PEPTIDES
RETIN A , or TAZORAC (or some other retinoids like APeel Daily etc.)
302 DROPS -- Expensive but lasts a long time--or can use a mixture of avocado oil/plus sunflower oil for linoleic acid and even Emu oil mixed here with these oils is fine. (Do not use Emu Oil alone it is not enough barrier protection). 302 Drops will also give protein synthesis important in repair ( this is not collagen synthesis) and has the smallest molecular weight to reach the dermis. The oils will just replace the lipids needed for proper wound healing. You can use a mixture of 302 drops, HA and the oils and aquaphor also for a nice barrier protection.
GROWTH FACTORS- One of the these
Colostrum (cheaper and has numerous growth factors) You can mix a little with the Cera Ve lotion at the time of application.
EGF- www.skinactives.com - a little is all you need follow their instructuions. You can use the Cera Ve lotion to mix this with or buy their Canvas Cream Or their Sea Kelp Bioferment to mix with.
NEOCUTIS -expensive but all all the growth facotrs you need
TNS- also expensive and only has 4 growth factors.
BACTROBAN ANTIBIOTIC OINTMENT - is best but you could use Polysporin
HYDROCORTISONE OINTMENT/CREAM - for prolong inflammation 1-2% formula -Only use if needed- If you are still very red/sore after 1-3 weeks then apply some. Use very little just enough to kick in other bio/processes for healing otherwise cortisone will destroy the collagen you are trying to make.
TX. PROTOCOL POST NEEDLING;
Apply HA first then a tiny bit of Aquaphor on top.
2 hours later apply more HA then add the Bactroban ointment on top. Keep the wound moist at all times during the healing process. This is the only time you apply an antibiotic unless infection sets in.
After 4-6 hours add more HA and Aquaphor keep this up until the next day.
NOTE -SOME people who are working on very Fibrous Scars can begin CP's within 2 hours after wounding to help breakdown the scar tissue. You will NOT use Bactroban here then. You will want to use CP's throughout the healing phase to break this up. You may not have good collagen placement but this should improve in your next needling session if you don't use the cp's anymore during remodeling phase.
CP's during the entire healing phase is best used on box scars and fibrous pits, not rolling scars.
24 hours later
Cleanse genetly if needed, tepid water is best here or a mix of vinegar and water.
Apply HA to the wound then mix some HA with Aquapor plus CeraVe Lotion and add 1-2 drops of 302 serum. I begin using 302 and CP's 24-48 hours after wounding depending on my skins' reaction to the wounding. I add a few drops of CP to the HA apply first then apply the above mixtue of lipids and barrier protection. Also at this point for those not using 302 drops you may add the Growth Factors here( colostrum I think is the most benign to use at this point no additives to torment the skin, ie preservatives,glycols etc. ) but be careful not to inlfame the skin. Tiny amounts do wonders. For those not understanding the wounding phases it may be best to delay growth factors until the skin has recovered some, ie a few days later.
Note CP's will increase wound repair time by increasing gelatinases(MMP's) and deposit substances needed to make the ECM (extracellular matrix). The ECM response is what we want so this is why I only use it for a week after wounding.
48 -72 hours later
Cleanse- may add Cera Ve Cleanser if skin tolerates, if too sensitive still then use vinegar/water combo
Repeat the above but add Growth Factors as tolerated. Apply HA then Growth Factors, then the barrier protection. HA is the medium used for communication between cells in wounds, so this always is first. Keep this up until epithilialization has occured 7-10 days.
7-10 Days
Begin Retinoids mix with CP's if you are removing fibrous scars and apply at Night only.
Others will need to stop CP's here if you want better collagen placement. Keep using the other products and apply as needed.
AM
Cleanse with Cera Ve cleanser ( this cleanser is non foaming and super gentle it will not remove makeup or sunscreen)This cleanser or other mild cleansers must be used in the first 2 weeks at least. No harsh chemicals please. Use solutions of vinegar and water if needed for deeper cleansing.
Mix HA and a few drops of 302 and growth factors apply to wounds then apply Cera Ve Cream or Lotion as needed
Sunscreen, Hat etc
If you expose your skin to the sun now you have just negated all that you did! However I do believe non chemical suncreens(zincs-titanium dioxide etc Shesiedo 55 SPF.) are best in this early stage, the cells are very fragile.
Once the skin has healed the better sunscreens should be used, Bioderma etc, the European ones. with higher PPD's than in the US formulations www.physea.com
Settle into a routine of repair now for remodeling collagen
PM
Cleanse
Retinoids and CP or Retinoids alone
Growth Factors can be used with this too.
Switch off nights with 302 and retinoids if desired or use any combo that works for you. These products are synergystic so they can be mixed and matched.
I like the mix of Growth Facotrs and Retin A every other night and 302 Drops and Growth Factors mixed in between nights. I use 302 daily too with my lipid mix until full restoration if the epidermis has occured, 3 weeks or a month.
Remember the first layer of the skin is replaced by 7-10 days. BUT this does not mean the rest of the epidermis has been restored. OK? There are many layers to the skin and this takes time to heal.
Retinoids do not need to be used daily to be effective, if irritation occurs mix with the Cera Ve Lotion and apply. Also I just use retinoids every other day if I am usng the 302 drops and or the growth factors.
HA at this time does not need to be applied first but you will need to continue it for 21 days after wounding.
I like to mix it with my Cera Ve lotion and 302 Drops. Or Apply 302 drops first then the HA and Loton.
Stop Retinoids 1 week to 3 days before any treatments. I can use RA anytine and never stop it. But most skins are not as tough as mine. Retin A research has concluded it does increase healing and collagen placement if used at least 1 month prior to treatments. Best used at least 3-6 months prior to treatments.
Followed within 7-10 days after treatment or when the frst layer of your skin has healed, which is the stratum corneum.
Supplemets are your choice I gave you some ideas in my other posts along with a good multi/mineral. BUT the most imoortant is Beta Glucan 1/3 1/6 !! Why? Because this will stimulate the macrophages to make substances for the basement membrane and subcutis to repair. This damage to the base membrane is why you scarred in the first place. I don't know of any other supplement that stimulates macrophages so this is the best I can offer. Perhaps others can add to this. Some even use BG as a topical but in early wound healing I advise against topical use, too much stimulation is not good.
Use topical L-ascorbic acid or Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate if you have persitant redness and only when the skin has completely healed. Increase bioflavonoids and oral C if prolong redness has ocurred. Stop using CP's too this increases angiogenesis, makes your face red!. C does not increase angiogenesis but will strengthen the vascular beds (decreasing broken caps)with bio-flavonoids and remove iron deposits trapped in the skin causing red marks etc. Retinoids will also increase angiogenesis so use only a few days/week until redness subsides. You must keep using some retinoid though!
It take 3 months or more for collagen to be placed in the tissue. Collagen remodels over and over again until final palcement (end type collagen) your skin will produce. Needling should be done every 3 months not sooner than this unless your needling was very superficial. Do this more often and you will create more scar tissue.. Be patient this takes 1--3 years for some who have severe scarring.
OK I want to surf now. This is exhausting for me. I am so dyslexic and it takes me for ever to type.
Perhaps someone can take my key points and simplify this for others. I did want to explain my methods as best I could for you all to get a clearer understanding why you may not be achieving the results you desire.
Hoping the best for you all.
Take care
Shyana"
That was a qoute from shyana, i was wondering if any of you were following her aftercare protocal.
I was folloing this protocal a long time ago, but i changed to my own. I still include things like the bactroban etc but i now only use terproline twice per day and LED therapy as you know.
My scars no longer bother me.
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Posted 21 November 2008 - 01:29 AM
Actually, for me, hoping for good results from Dermaroller is what has clouded my judgements.
I've done Dermaroller (3x's) last year, from 12-2007 to 2-2008 from a doctor that promised at least 20-30% improvement.
I kept thinking or wishing to see great results and never bothered to closely look at all the pictures I've taken. The truth is hard to bare... the results are terrible. To be honest, I couldn't tell the difference between 1st, 2nd and 3rd Dermarolling and after almost ONE year, I STILL can't tell the difference - and if I had to guess, it actually made it worse.
If you look at picture 12-18-2007 (RIGHT), it is 3 days after my 1st Dermarolling and ignore the redness, it is actually smoother. Now see picture 11-21-2008 (LEFT), taken 11 months after my 1st Dermarolling. Yuck.
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I've got a few compliments from my uncle last week after not seeing him almost a year, but of course, he knew I did Dermarolling and was trying to make me feel better. I know my other cousin would've definetely told me my complexion improved if it actually had; strangely, she kept silent....
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Should've listened to all the other experienced doctors here..... Dermabrasion! Dermabrasion! or maybe Fraxel... I know there is no cure but I think Dermarolling had little effect on me. If my skin tone had improved, it was due to the 20+ facial spa sessions that I've attended last 3 months. Oh well...
PS:
The Dermatologist used genuine 1.5mm Dermaroller and aggressively rolled a good 10 minutes with pain registering close to a 8.5/10 - it was alot more painful than getting my tatoo on my back. I followed all his advise, faithfully applying all the stuff I was suppose to. Neocutis skin cream, Vitamin C and Nutmeg (H.acid) were all used. At the end of the day, I'm thinking it was all a waste of time and money. Majorly.
I've done Dermaroller (3x's) last year, from 12-2007 to 2-2008 from a doctor that promised at least 20-30% improvement.
I kept thinking or wishing to see great results and never bothered to closely look at all the pictures I've taken. The truth is hard to bare... the results are terrible. To be honest, I couldn't tell the difference between 1st, 2nd and 3rd Dermarolling and after almost ONE year, I STILL can't tell the difference - and if I had to guess, it actually made it worse.
If you look at picture 12-18-2007 (RIGHT), it is 3 days after my 1st Dermarolling and ignore the redness, it is actually smoother. Now see picture 11-21-2008 (LEFT), taken 11 months after my 1st Dermarolling. Yuck.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've got a few compliments from my uncle last week after not seeing him almost a year, but of course, he knew I did Dermarolling and was trying to make me feel better. I know my other cousin would've definetely told me my complexion improved if it actually had; strangely, she kept silent....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Should've listened to all the other experienced doctors here..... Dermabrasion! Dermabrasion! or maybe Fraxel... I know there is no cure but I think Dermarolling had little effect on me. If my skin tone had improved, it was due to the 20+ facial spa sessions that I've attended last 3 months. Oh well...
PS:
The Dermatologist used genuine 1.5mm Dermaroller and aggressively rolled a good 10 minutes with pain registering close to a 8.5/10 - it was alot more painful than getting my tatoo on my back. I followed all his advise, faithfully applying all the stuff I was suppose to. Neocutis skin cream, Vitamin C and Nutmeg (H.acid) were all used. At the end of the day, I'm thinking it was all a waste of time and money. Majorly.
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Posted 21 November 2008 - 02:45 PM
Claisen,
Thanks for your post and the picture. I really appreciate your insightful post and I hope that people post their results just like you did. Post like yours truly helps to know what works for what type of scars. Most of the posters are selfish .. they only seek help, but then they don't want to contribute anything in return.
Good luck on your quest to get rid of the scars. You mentioned Fraxel .. I went through a series of four this past summer and I am less than satisfied with the results given the the money I spent. After looking at your pics, comparatively my scars are less severe than yours in terms of depth so I don't recommend Fraxel to you. I saw it on one Korean/Chinese website results of some Total/ActiveFX laser (link in one of threads here) and seemed to have much better results for scars that looked more severe than yours. Maybe you should look into it. It looked more promising than anything that I've seen.
Thanks for your post and the picture. I really appreciate your insightful post and I hope that people post their results just like you did. Post like yours truly helps to know what works for what type of scars. Most of the posters are selfish .. they only seek help, but then they don't want to contribute anything in return.
Good luck on your quest to get rid of the scars. You mentioned Fraxel .. I went through a series of four this past summer and I am less than satisfied with the results given the the money I spent. After looking at your pics, comparatively my scars are less severe than yours in terms of depth so I don't recommend Fraxel to you. I saw it on one Korean/Chinese website results of some Total/ActiveFX laser (link in one of threads here) and seemed to have much better results for scars that looked more severe than yours. Maybe you should look into it. It looked more promising than anything that I've seen.
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Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:00 PM
Claisen,
I'm sorry that you werent happy with your results have you ever thought of TCA cross by a doctor to help? Whatever you do don't give up and I want to thank you for posting your photos you're helping alot of people.
I'm sorry that you werent happy with your results have you ever thought of TCA cross by a doctor to help? Whatever you do don't give up and I want to thank you for posting your photos you're helping alot of people.
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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:06 PM
QUOTE (nicole0671 @ Nov 21 2008, 03:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Claisen,
I'm sorry that you werent happy with your results have you ever thought of TCA cross by a doctor to help? Whatever you do don't give up and I want to thank you for posting your photos you're helping alot of people.
I'm sorry that you werent happy with your results have you ever thought of TCA cross by a doctor to help? Whatever you do don't give up and I want to thank you for posting your photos you're helping alot of people.
You know, the needling theory sounds great on paper - making thousands of micro-wounds to promote collagen re-modeling and eventually, filling in the scars - but in reality I think that our skin is much much more complicated than that. For one, our skin automatically seals and blocks all those microwounds within hours, if not days and weeks before any collagen induction can be taking place. If this was not the case, we would all bleed to death or die of simple infection.
I'm not here to discount anyone's positive results with needling. I *know* for a fact that my skin did appear better 1-2 week after the needling each time I did it - BUT - as I have posted last year, it was probably due to the swelling and coupled with skin healing that made my scars softer and skin tighter. Most of it, if not all, subsides within a month.
I do believe that I was 'hoping' for great results that others had. And often seeing improvements in good lighting. I mean, if you take the same picture with a flash, you would never see much scars. I can only say, for me, that needling did absolutely nothing for my scars - period.
The dermatologist that performed my needling, btw, attended top medical school in our country. He told me he was one of the 1st doctor to perform needling here, many years ago.
During the procedure, he had to wipe my face with tissue, soaking red so I know he did it correctly. My face formed scabs and turned purpish-red and didn't go away for 3-4 days. After, it was pinkish.
I've consulted a new dermatologist and he has guarantee me 50% improvement in one year; of course I was credulous as I can be. But then he gave me another guarantee - that he will do as much dermabrasion and Fraxel as I required (for about a year or so) to feel satisified with my result for ~$3000 US with all the required topicals. Well, of course I will try this now. Perhaps I will ask him about TCA.
Tonight, I will do a 7.5 level (kj?) 3D-Fraxel for my full face. Depending on how my face responds, he will either do dermabrasion to the worst parts of my face or increase Fraxel level a month from now...
Battle on ...
#1373
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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:25 PM
QUOTE (imjayhawk @ Nov 21 2008, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Claisen,
Good luck on your quest to get rid of the scars. You mentioned Fraxel .. I went through a series of four this past summer and I am less than satisfied with the results given the the money I spent. After looking at your pics, comparatively my scars are less severe than yours in terms of depth so I don't recommend Fraxel to you. I saw it on one Korean/Chinese website results of some Total/ActiveFX laser (link in one of threads here) and seemed to have much better results for scars that looked more severe than yours. Maybe you should look into it. It looked more promising than anything that I've seen.
Good luck on your quest to get rid of the scars. You mentioned Fraxel .. I went through a series of four this past summer and I am less than satisfied with the results given the the money I spent. After looking at your pics, comparatively my scars are less severe than yours in terms of depth so I don't recommend Fraxel to you. I saw it on one Korean/Chinese website results of some Total/ActiveFX laser (link in one of threads here) and seemed to have much better results for scars that looked more severe than yours. Maybe you should look into it. It looked more promising than anything that I've seen.
So Fraxel did not work well for you? How many times, at what level and how much have you spent? I don't know much about Total/ActiveFX - I mean they are literally coming out with new machines every single day. I think maybe someday they will create stem-cells that can regenerate scarred faces and burnt victims. Until then, I don't think anything will ever give us 100% satisfaction.
Unfortunately, I don not have the time/energy to look for doctors here in Taiwan that does Total/ActiveFX. I know that new technology will cost $$$$$$. So for now, I've commited myself to spent about $3000 US for the next 12 months or so - doing as much combination of Fraxel and Dermarasion that is required, to give me a result I will be satisfied with (50%). I mean I've already wasted more than that doing useless procedures. Seriously, if it gave me 30%, it would've been better than 0%. And if I don't try, I will never improve.
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Posted 22 November 2008 - 02:06 AM
QUOTE (claisen @ Nov 21 2008, 09:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (imjayhawk @ Nov 21 2008, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Claisen,
Good luck on your quest to get rid of the scars. You mentioned Fraxel .. I went through a series of four this past summer and I am less than satisfied with the results given the the money I spent. After looking at your pics, comparatively my scars are less severe than yours in terms of depth so I don't recommend Fraxel to you. I saw it on one Korean/Chinese website results of some Total/ActiveFX laser (link in one of threads here) and seemed to have much better results for scars that looked more severe than yours. Maybe you should look into it. It looked more promising than anything that I've seen.
Good luck on your quest to get rid of the scars. You mentioned Fraxel .. I went through a series of four this past summer and I am less than satisfied with the results given the the money I spent. After looking at your pics, comparatively my scars are less severe than yours in terms of depth so I don't recommend Fraxel to you. I saw it on one Korean/Chinese website results of some Total/ActiveFX laser (link in one of threads here) and seemed to have much better results for scars that looked more severe than yours. Maybe you should look into it. It looked more promising than anything that I've seen.
So Fraxel did not work well for you? How many times, at what level and how much have you spent? I don't know much about Total/ActiveFX - I mean they are literally coming out with new machines every single day. I think maybe someday they will create stem-cells that can regenerate scarred faces and burnt victims. Until then, I don't think anything will ever give us 100% satisfaction.
Unfortunately, I don not have the time/energy to look for doctors here in Taiwan that does Total/ActiveFX. I know that new technology will cost $$$$$$. So for now, I've commited myself to spent about $3000 US for the next 12 months or so - doing as much combination of Fraxel and Dermarasion that is required, to give me a result I will be satisfied with (50%). I mean I've already wasted more than that doing useless procedures. Seriously, if it gave me 30%, it would've been better than 0%. And if I don't try, I will never improve.
Fraxel did help some but nothing like I thought it would be. In comparison to yours, I have lot shallower scars but density-wise, I'd consider my scarring severe. If you search for my posts, you should see my pics. I did 4 treatments. Forgot the settings, but I know that it was as deep as it could go. The only thing was because I have a skin color that is a tad bit darker than yours, the doctor would not pack more dots per square inch (I'm thinking it'll be the same case for you). After my 4th treatment, I did get some hyperpigmentation on my temples that has gone away since after applying some bleaching cream.
You said you don't have time/energy to look for doctors who'll do Total/ActiveFX in Taiwan, but before you commit with dermabrasion, I've heard horrible stories on dermabrasion in this board. Here's the link that I talked about .. maybe you know Chinese assuming you are in Taiwan so maybe you can get info on the doc as well. There's a couple of threads dedicated to it. It is a combination of Total FX and Active FX lasers. This is the most promising results that I've seen till now for severe scars.
http://drfang01.so-buy.com/front/bin/home.phtml
#1375
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Posted 22 November 2008 - 03:33 AM
Imjayhawk,
Tainan is about an hour from where I live. You know, I wish I had done more research on this before comitting 1/2 of my money already. I highly doubt the doctor will refund me 1/2 the money and call it even. And for me, I'd need to do at least 4 or 5 more Fraxels before I got my money's worth. So I guess, I'm stuck with doing Fraxel and perhaps Dermabrasion. Thanks for your input and yes I went to the site and saw the promising & great results - which btw - was the same feeling I had when they showed me pictures of MTS and Dermarolling. And of course, same feeling I had when they showed me before/after pictures of dermabrasion, Fraxel, etc, etc. Sigh....
I was doing some research on the machine that my doc will be using - 3D Fraxel Sellas - and came across this blog:
http://www.medicalspamd.com/physician-to-p...3?currentPage=2
Here, they were comparing these machines: Reliant Fraxel SR1500, Pearl Cutera and LumenisActiveFX. If you read the blog, you see some believe that Pearl Cutera to be superior to previous lasers. I think the difference between all these lasers are measured in microns. But they basically work with similar principals. So, now I guess I can keep waiting for the next best thing or keep trying with what I'm (stuck) with now.
I know one thing - for you to achieve any permanent result, you will have tons of downtown. I'm sure this is the case for Active or DeepFX. I was told by my derm that with 3D Fraxel, your downtime is 3-4 days; same as needling.
I did some further reserach on the Sellas 3D and saw that it can go down further (1.5mm?) than most Fraxels here in Taiwan. My doc has said that it can go almost as deep as dermabrasion although probably not achieve as good results as dermabrasion.
Anyways, even if ActiveFX is much better, the only thing I can do is telling them to refund my money and charge for the scheduled Fraxel I'm having tonight (or cancel it).
PS. I just called the doc in Tainan and they got a quote of ~US$1800 per treatment with their new laser. Just as I thought, new technology =$$$$$$. I remember Fraxel being that price when it 1st came out. I would need at least 2 FX = $3600. I'm paying $3000 for a promise of at least 50% improvement, even if they have to do 10+ Fraxels...
Anyways, I'm having my Fraxel done in about an hour. I'll keep posted of my progress..
Thanks again for your suggestion. And if you do FX or DeepFX, please let me know of your progress. Perhaps I will be doing that a year from now...Sigh..
Tainan is about an hour from where I live. You know, I wish I had done more research on this before comitting 1/2 of my money already. I highly doubt the doctor will refund me 1/2 the money and call it even. And for me, I'd need to do at least 4 or 5 more Fraxels before I got my money's worth. So I guess, I'm stuck with doing Fraxel and perhaps Dermabrasion. Thanks for your input and yes I went to the site and saw the promising & great results - which btw - was the same feeling I had when they showed me pictures of MTS and Dermarolling. And of course, same feeling I had when they showed me before/after pictures of dermabrasion, Fraxel, etc, etc. Sigh....
I was doing some research on the machine that my doc will be using - 3D Fraxel Sellas - and came across this blog:
http://www.medicalspamd.com/physician-to-p...3?currentPage=2
Here, they were comparing these machines: Reliant Fraxel SR1500, Pearl Cutera and LumenisActiveFX. If you read the blog, you see some believe that Pearl Cutera to be superior to previous lasers. I think the difference between all these lasers are measured in microns. But they basically work with similar principals. So, now I guess I can keep waiting for the next best thing or keep trying with what I'm (stuck) with now.
I know one thing - for you to achieve any permanent result, you will have tons of downtown. I'm sure this is the case for Active or DeepFX. I was told by my derm that with 3D Fraxel, your downtime is 3-4 days; same as needling.
I did some further reserach on the Sellas 3D and saw that it can go down further (1.5mm?) than most Fraxels here in Taiwan. My doc has said that it can go almost as deep as dermabrasion although probably not achieve as good results as dermabrasion.
Anyways, even if ActiveFX is much better, the only thing I can do is telling them to refund my money and charge for the scheduled Fraxel I'm having tonight (or cancel it).
PS. I just called the doc in Tainan and they got a quote of ~US$1800 per treatment with their new laser. Just as I thought, new technology =$$$$$$. I remember Fraxel being that price when it 1st came out. I would need at least 2 FX = $3600. I'm paying $3000 for a promise of at least 50% improvement, even if they have to do 10+ Fraxels...
Anyways, I'm having my Fraxel done in about an hour. I'll keep posted of my progress..
Thanks again for your suggestion. And if you do FX or DeepFX, please let me know of your progress. Perhaps I will be doing that a year from now...Sigh..
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Posted 22 November 2008 - 05:50 AM
the two photo was taken in two differents angle of light!
take a look at the brightness of the first and the second photo..
the 2 photo has a better angle of light!
bye.
take a look at the brightness of the first and the second photo..
the 2 photo has a better angle of light!
bye.
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Posted 22 November 2008 - 03:43 PM
QUOTE (claisen @ Nov 21 2008, 02:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually, for me, hoping for good results from Dermaroller is what has clouded my judgements.
I've done Dermaroller (3x's) last year, from 12-2007 to 2-2008 from a doctor that promised at least 20-30% improvement.
I kept thinking or wishing to see great results and never bothered to closely look at all the pictures I've taken. The truth is hard to bare... the results are terrible. To be honest, I couldn't tell the difference between 1st, 2nd and 3rd Dermarolling and after almost ONE year, I STILL can't tell the difference - and if I had to guess, it actually made it worse.
If you look at picture 12-18-2007 (RIGHT), it is 3 days after my 1st Dermarolling and ignore the redness, it is actually smoother. Now see picture 11-21-2008 (LEFT), taken 11 months after my 1st Dermarolling. Yuck.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've got a few compliments from my uncle last week after not seeing him almost a year, but of course, he knew I did Dermarolling and was trying to make me feel better. I know my other cousin would've definetely told me my complexion improved if it actually had; strangely, she kept silent....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Should've listened to all the other experienced doctors here..... Dermabrasion! Dermabrasion! or maybe Fraxel... I know there is no cure but I think Dermarolling had little effect on me. If my skin tone had improved, it was due to the 20+ facial spa sessions that I've attended last 3 months. Oh well...
PS:
The Dermatologist used genuine 1.5mm Dermaroller and aggressively rolled a good 10 minutes with pain registering close to a 8.5/10 - it was alot more painful than getting my tatoo on my back. I followed all his advise, faithfully applying all the stuff I was suppose to. Neocutis skin cream, Vitamin C and Nutmeg (H.acid) were all used. At the end of the day, I'm thinking it was all a waste of time and money. Majorly.
I've done Dermaroller (3x's) last year, from 12-2007 to 2-2008 from a doctor that promised at least 20-30% improvement.
I kept thinking or wishing to see great results and never bothered to closely look at all the pictures I've taken. The truth is hard to bare... the results are terrible. To be honest, I couldn't tell the difference between 1st, 2nd and 3rd Dermarolling and after almost ONE year, I STILL can't tell the difference - and if I had to guess, it actually made it worse.
If you look at picture 12-18-2007 (RIGHT), it is 3 days after my 1st Dermarolling and ignore the redness, it is actually smoother. Now see picture 11-21-2008 (LEFT), taken 11 months after my 1st Dermarolling. Yuck.
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I've got a few compliments from my uncle last week after not seeing him almost a year, but of course, he knew I did Dermarolling and was trying to make me feel better. I know my other cousin would've definetely told me my complexion improved if it actually had; strangely, she kept silent....
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Should've listened to all the other experienced doctors here..... Dermabrasion! Dermabrasion! or maybe Fraxel... I know there is no cure but I think Dermarolling had little effect on me. If my skin tone had improved, it was due to the 20+ facial spa sessions that I've attended last 3 months. Oh well...
PS:
The Dermatologist used genuine 1.5mm Dermaroller and aggressively rolled a good 10 minutes with pain registering close to a 8.5/10 - it was alot more painful than getting my tatoo on my back. I followed all his advise, faithfully applying all the stuff I was suppose to. Neocutis skin cream, Vitamin C and Nutmeg (H.acid) were all used. At the end of the day, I'm thinking it was all a waste of time and money. Majorly.
claisen, I notice some improvement of your skin from the photo's. In my opinion its clear to see. Its not drastic but there are not many drastic procedures out there unless you get larger scars excised by a surgeon. none the less I do see improvement. : ) and I am not just saying that to make you feel better. I have just started doing derma roller myself. I am going to keep doing it, as well as glycolic peels and some minor needling. Only time will tell how much improvement I get but I am going to stay positive and keep going. you cannot give up. just keep on going bro. I have bad scarring too and I am not going to give up, I am going to prove everybody wrong who said I cant improve my skin. every doctor who ripped somebody off who really needed help, every dr. who over charged some body and gave poor results. I am going to keep fighting my friend, I hope you do to.
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Posted 22 November 2008 - 07:09 PM
QUOTE (ghet @ Nov 22 2008, 05:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
the two photo was taken in two differents angle of light!
take a look at the brightness of the first and the second photo..
the 2 photo has a better angle of light!
bye.
take a look at the brightness of the first and the second photo..
the 2 photo has a better angle of light!
bye.
Of course, they are almost a year apart. I doubt anybody can take two exact same pictures. But I've taken 100+ pictures and have made a conclusion based on the totality.
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Posted 22 November 2008 - 07:28 PM
Munsoned,
I appreciate the encouragement but are you looking at the pictures in order? The 1st one (left picture) is NOW while the 2nd one, (right picture), is last year. I don't think any reasonable analysis can conclude which is better. And if you had to a % on it, I'd would be guessing 0 percentage +/- 3%. I even think I see new scars where there weren't before.
The results for me are not much better than when I did 6 microdermabrasion sessions 8 years ago coupled with Obagi treatment for a year. Then people have complimented how much then my tone has improved - just like now after doing some 20+ facial spas here. The doc then advised the only thing for me was either laser or dermabrasion. Of course I could not afford it then and went with something I hope would do the job for fraction of the cost - as I did with dermarolling....
I'm not saying that needling is totally useless. Again, it has improved my complexion/tone and perhaps soften the scars IMMEDIATELY after - BUT all the improvements subsided within a month or so after. I remember that I did not get much compliments for 2-6 months after my 3rd session of needling.
I really hope you get the desire you are looking from dermarolling or MTS. I would never discourage anyone to do something they feel can help them. For me, if you had shown me these two pictures after 3 sessions and one year, I would never in a million years wasted my money. I'm sure people have actually benefited from it, just as people have actually benefited from laser, dermabrasion and other procedures. Perhaps I'm one of the unlucky ones that clearly do not respond well to needling. But I'm believing now that needling isn't as effective as it promises to be. I'm sure there are greedy docs out there trying to rip patients off but then you can also say the same about needling companies selling them for ridiculous prices for their 'miracle pins'. I've just done my 1st Fraxel last night and believe me, I will tell you exactly the same thing if it gave me ineffective results.
I really tried to give needling as much benefit of doubt as possible against the advises of majority of dermatologists (12+) that I consulted. I've also asked dozens more in email and thoroughly searched for all the positive comments on the net. For me, I felt I made a serious judgement in error for not listening to the majority. I'm concluding, for myself, that these docs knew what they were talking about as far as my skin was concerned - they saw little or no benefit from needling. But then I went to one of the few that offered it, thinking that I was saving money when actually, I could've done few dermabrsions or fraxels for that price. Right, there is a chance fraxel or dermabrasion would not work for me, at least, I tried a procedure that majority of docs feel is right for me - that is all I can do. I'm trying to be as objective as I can. Had needling worked, I would be here trumping its horn as loudly as I could. But for me, needling was the equivalent of medical placebo - I was HOPING that I will improve and that was what had clouded my subjectivity.
My advise to you is to take tons of pictures and to get the angle, lighting as close as possible between sessions. Then let your eyes be the judge of the final results few months later.
Good luck.
I appreciate the encouragement but are you looking at the pictures in order? The 1st one (left picture) is NOW while the 2nd one, (right picture), is last year. I don't think any reasonable analysis can conclude which is better. And if you had to a % on it, I'd would be guessing 0 percentage +/- 3%. I even think I see new scars where there weren't before.
The results for me are not much better than when I did 6 microdermabrasion sessions 8 years ago coupled with Obagi treatment for a year. Then people have complimented how much then my tone has improved - just like now after doing some 20+ facial spas here. The doc then advised the only thing for me was either laser or dermabrasion. Of course I could not afford it then and went with something I hope would do the job for fraction of the cost - as I did with dermarolling....
I'm not saying that needling is totally useless. Again, it has improved my complexion/tone and perhaps soften the scars IMMEDIATELY after - BUT all the improvements subsided within a month or so after. I remember that I did not get much compliments for 2-6 months after my 3rd session of needling.
I really hope you get the desire you are looking from dermarolling or MTS. I would never discourage anyone to do something they feel can help them. For me, if you had shown me these two pictures after 3 sessions and one year, I would never in a million years wasted my money. I'm sure people have actually benefited from it, just as people have actually benefited from laser, dermabrasion and other procedures. Perhaps I'm one of the unlucky ones that clearly do not respond well to needling. But I'm believing now that needling isn't as effective as it promises to be. I'm sure there are greedy docs out there trying to rip patients off but then you can also say the same about needling companies selling them for ridiculous prices for their 'miracle pins'. I've just done my 1st Fraxel last night and believe me, I will tell you exactly the same thing if it gave me ineffective results.
I really tried to give needling as much benefit of doubt as possible against the advises of majority of dermatologists (12+) that I consulted. I've also asked dozens more in email and thoroughly searched for all the positive comments on the net. For me, I felt I made a serious judgement in error for not listening to the majority. I'm concluding, for myself, that these docs knew what they were talking about as far as my skin was concerned - they saw little or no benefit from needling. But then I went to one of the few that offered it, thinking that I was saving money when actually, I could've done few dermabrsions or fraxels for that price. Right, there is a chance fraxel or dermabrasion would not work for me, at least, I tried a procedure that majority of docs feel is right for me - that is all I can do. I'm trying to be as objective as I can. Had needling worked, I would be here trumping its horn as loudly as I could. But for me, needling was the equivalent of medical placebo - I was HOPING that I will improve and that was what had clouded my subjectivity.
My advise to you is to take tons of pictures and to get the angle, lighting as close as possible between sessions. Then let your eyes be the judge of the final results few months later.
Good luck.
#1380
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Posted 22 November 2008 - 08:16 PM
claisen, atleast you are still trying things. thats to bad you did not get the desrired results from all your efforts. I needled a few of my own scars. I also derma rolled myself. Its much cheaper this way, I cant afford expensive treatments. I do take photo's as well as I have looked over my scars so many times I think I can tell if theres any improvment. either theres improvement I can clearly see or there is nothing. I am running a log of my efforts on here so I'll keep a close eye on how things go for me.
I will keep you in my thoughts and I really hope you find something that helps. stay as positive as you can man, the mind is a very powerfull thing. "where the mind goes the body follows."
peace man....
I will keep you in my thoughts and I really hope you find something that helps. stay as positive as you can man, the mind is a very powerfull thing. "where the mind goes the body follows."
peace man....
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