128 replies to this topic

[Mr Wiggles]

Mr Wiggles, those are some interesting findings you have there.  I, for one, will agree right off the bat that the studies you have posted are probably correct, and caution SHOULD be taken when using BP for the long term.

However, personally I don't see another solution for my skin problems. I have recently started using BP and have had great results. I have been using makeup daily for about 8 years now, and it seems to me the risks of skin damage are about the same, if not better with BP. That's just my personal opinion though. I would rather use BP and take those risks, than continue using foundation for the rest of my life and hoping all the chemicals in the foundation won't give me cancer later in life. It's a double-edged sword.

If you, Mr. Wiggles, have any ideas for people like myself...ideas that involve natural means to get rid of acne, I am more than willing to listen. Otherwise, some of us just have to take our chances sometimes, when nothing else works.

bpwilliams - Sadly, FDA approval does not say much about a product. There are plenty of very dangerous drugs that get FDA approval in to time, even though they are anything but safe.

Maria,

first and foremost, thanks for not attacking me.

If you like the effects of BP, why not use a strong BP wash 10-15%. This way you are not letting your skin saturate itself with BP.

Try something like this

~try drinking one gallon of water a day, and take a multi vitamin
~steer clear of high glycemic carbs
~use a high concentration BP wash, and use Sayclic Acid and Glycolic Acid topically as opposed to topical BP
I dont think people with acne or people in general give glycolic acid the respect it deserves. A colleague of mine mentioned glycolic acid to me when we were undergrads, I think it is one of the most underated tools in fighting acne.

Anyways hope that was somewhat helpful. I am also glad your current treatment is working for you.

[MariaS]

Mr. Wiggles, I have absolutely no reason to attack you. I wholeheartedly agree that BP is not the best solution for the long term, but nonetheless, it is a solution, and one that works very well for some people.

As for me, I drink at least a gallon of water a day, and have taken green supplements, multi vitamins, and many, many other herbs and supplements for years. I do not use antibiotics, or any other alopathic medications for that matter. I drink fresh vegetable juices every day and have a pretty decent diet, and yet, it has never made a difference on my face. I have one of the most natural lifestyles I know of, but again, it has been of no help to my face. I use all natural detergents, shampoos, personal care items...etc...

I am saying this because I think it's important to point out that quite a lot of people on Dan's regimen have had no luck with anything else.

As someone who has tried a great deal of natural solutions, I feel that BP may be my only choice, and I'm afraid others on this board may feel the same way. I think this may be the reason a lot of people get very defensive about Dan's product around here.

[Artemis]

Mr Wiggles,

A question for you. This is purely out of curiosity and not meant to be accusatory in any way, so please read with an objective eye.

Why is it that you are so strongly motivated to dissuade strangers, people who you've never met and likely never will, from the use of a substance you clearly don't use yourself? Whether it is as harmful as you claim or not, you are obviously facing some fairly passionate opposition, and from people who have invested quite a bit of time and energy into building this site.

You have no personal stake in the matter, whereas the members of this community clearly do. So, why bother? I don't understand your fervour, why you're putting so much into this.

Anyone who is committed to the use of benzoyl peroxide, whatever their personal reasons may be, will most likely not be dissuaded by the literature you are citing, however valid their sources. Many, many people are willing to accept potential detriments along with benefits in everyday existence. Anyone who consumes alcohol on a semi-regular basis, or drives above the speed limit, or drinks too much caffeine, or goes on the Atkins Diet can attest to that. (These were just examples; no need to post elaborate responses to each one). Post-industrial, urban, relatively democratic life is like that.

People make choices, as individuals, not all of them as well-informed as we might like, but usually with a decent amount of awareness and acceptance of the consequences, whatever they may be. If anyone is posting on this site, it is probably because they have decided that benzoyl peroxide is the solution for them. Differences in opinion and lifestyle exist. I'm not sure why you can't seem to accept this.

It just seems very, very strange to me that anyone would deliberately take the energy to locate a site that advocates views/products they find contentious, then plunge themselves into fighting it, putting so much time and effort into combating something they have absolutely no personal stake in. I find it very peculiar, to say the least.

[Dan]

Thank you for posting the studies. After these studies were made public, the FDA unanimously voted to keep benzoyl peroxide over-the-counter. The following is a quote addressing this issue from "Acne & Rosacea, Third Edition", which is the most complete text on acne at medical libraries:

"There is some worry concerning the extensive, uncontrolled use of this very popular drug. It has been found that benzoyl peroxide is a tumor promoter in the two-stage model of chemical carcinogenesis in hairless mice...There has been much futile discussion among regulators about whether tumor promoton is a possiblity in man. The drug is prohibited in Japan, which is a disservice to acne patients. Extensive use for many decades is strong evidence that this drugs i neither a carinogen nor a co-cargcinogen."

And here is the full quote regarding the safety of benzoyl peroxide:

"Following application to the skin, benzoyl peroxide is rapidly metabolized to benzoic acid, a harmless chemical. Extensive use in human beings has failed to demonstrate absorption. The drugs is eminently safe."

And finally, regarding free radicals:

"The anti-inflammatory effect of benzoyl peroxide is due to a reduction of oxygen free radicals." I am confused by the study you posted that says benzoyl peroxide produces free radicals. According to this authoritative text, it appears that the opposite is true.

But despite all of this information and evidently contadictory claims, if we use common sense, it appears that benzoyl peroxide is safe. It was introduced around 1930 and has been used by millions of people for decades with no problems. I myself am a personal study all my own. I have used lots of benzoyl peroxide for many years, and frankly, the skin where I use the benzoyl peroxide appears younger and healthier than where I don't.

Having said all that, if you are uncomfortable with benzoyl peroxide, or any other drug, do not use it. However, let's not try to scare others out of an effective and safe alternative.

Below is an independent assay from 11/05/03. I repeated this assay process on 12/12/03, 12/17/03, 1/21/04, 2/20/04, and 3/22/04 and have them all and could scan them in, but that's a little redundant. They all show bp from 2.31% up to 2.55%. The acceptable margin, I believe is .5%.

[Mr Wiggles]

Dan,

Thanks for scannning that. It shows that you care about your customers. It also shows that you take great pride and care creating your BP,

I hope you dont think I was attacking you. You may want to post that scanned paper with your BP gel info on your website so other potential customers know your product is what you claim it is.

And for those who dont know, I use BP, but not in the extreme doses you guys do. I only use to spot treat occasional pimples.

Thank you for posting the studies.  After these studies were made public, the FDA unanimously voted to keep benzoyl peroxide over-the-counter.  The following is a quote addressing this issue from "Acne & Rosacea, Third Edition", which is the most complete text on acne at medical libraries:

"There is some worry concerning the extensive, uncontrolled use of this very popular drug.  It has been found that benzoyl peroxide is a tumor promoter in the two-stage model of chemical carcinogenesis in hairless mice...There has been much futile discussion among regulators about whether tumor promoton is a possiblity in man. The drug is prohibited in Japan, which is a disservice to acne patients.  Extensive use for many decades is strong evidence that this drugs i neither a carinogen nor a co-cargcinogen." 

And here is the full quote regarding the safety of benzoyl peroxide:

"Following application to the skin, benzoyl peroxide is rapidly metabolized to benzoic acid, a harmless chemical.  Extensive use in human beings has failed to demonstrate absorption.  The drugs is eminently safe." 

And finally, regarding free radicals:

"The anti-inflammatory effect of benzoyl peroxide is due to a reduction of oxygen free radicals."  I am confused by the study you posted that says benzoyl peroxide produces free radicals.  According to this authoritative text, it appears that the opposite is true.

But despite all of this information and evidently contadictory claims, if we use common sense, it appears that benzoyl peroxide is safe.  It was introduced around 1930 and has been used by millions of people for decades with no problems.  I myself am a personal study all my own.  I have used lots of benzoyl peroxide for many years, and frankly, the skin where I use the benzoyl peroxide appears younger and healthier than where I don't. 

Having said all that, if you are uncomfortable with benzoyl peroxide, or any other drug, do not use it.  However, let's not try to scare others out of an effective and safe alternative.

Below is an independent assay from 11/05/03.  I repeated this assay process on 12/12/03, 12/17/03, 1/21/04, 2/20/04, and 3/22/04 and have them all and could scan them in, but that's a little redundant.  They all show bp from 2.31% up to 2.55%.  The acceptable margin, I believe is .5%. 

[Mr Wiggles]

Having said all that, if you are uncomfortable with benzoyl peroxide, or any other drug, do not use it.  However, let's not try to scare others out of an effective and safe alternative.

I think the high doses you are recommending is not wise. A thin film should suffice. If you need those insane amounts of BP on your face, other options might better suite you.

I agree with everyone here that BP works fantastically. But lets not forget to be responsible.

Dan I am sorry I tried to get a scientific debate going. If this hurt your sales in anyway, I am sorry...

[frances]

Having said all that, if you are uncomfortable with benzoyl peroxide, or any other drug, do not use it.  However, let's not try to scare others out of an effective and safe alternative.

^ For me this is the heart of it.

Personally, I don't see benzoyl peroxide as some kind of holy grail in acne medication....I am far too cynical. I see benzoyl peroxide as an imperfect tool from the toolbox of all imperfect acne medications avaiable. For me bp is less imperfect than other meds I have tried.

I am a veteran of accutane, minocycline, cindamycin, differin, diane 35ed, estelle 35ed, salicylic acid, sulfur and the list goes on. All of these have side effects whether it be that they are teratogens, cause bone density loss, can cause liver damage, can cause your hair to fall out, can cause deep vein thrombosis, can cause migraines, are connected to an increased risk of uterine cancer, colitis, antibiotic resistance, candida infections, salicylate poisoning/toxicity/allergy….let alone that many cause local redness, peeling, dermatitis. I know this because as a consumer I have researched the positive AND negative side effects to medications.

On balance I feel that benzoyl peroxide offers me a fairly good range of positive side effects with minimal negative side effects and risk and while I continue to feel comfortable about that equation I will continue to use it. I also continue to trial new products occasionally, and research new and exisiting treatments.

I'm grateful that Dan produced his own bp product, he did so because Neutrogena and other manufacturers were completely unresponsive to producing a more economical sized and priced bp product. I think that was a cool thing to do.

[nevermind]

now if only he'd get someone to distribute it in Australia

[Dan]

For more on why I needed to use generous amounts, please read http://www.acne.org/acne_treatment.html While I agree that generous amounts of 10% bp is irritating and overly drying, generous amounts of 2.5%, along with adequate moisturization, keeps the skin balanced and clear. I have seen this many times personally with people that I coach through the regimen and thousands of times through the years in stories on this web site and in my email inbox.

[OldMan]

interesting papers..although an abstract isn't exactly conclusive proof in my mind..

I'd much rather see the actual data and concentration of BP used in those studies...especially the en vivo use.

Wiggles...you seem to be a pharm student or something along those lines... you should know that almost anything with high enough concentrations can be carcinogenic.

[bpwilliams]

Mr. Wiggles I am curious about your background. Where did you acquire all this information on BP and what knowledge do you have of dermatology?

[IndianGuy25]

hooray for bp

[Mr Wiggles]

interesting papers..although an abstract isn't exactly conclusive proof in my mind..


True. But scientific studies fly in the face of internet gurus who claim BP is perfectly safe.


I'd much rather see the actual data and concentration of BP used in those studies...especially the en vivo use.


As, would I. Most studies however have similiar conclusions that BP promotes free radicals, and is a tumor promoter.



Wiggles...you seem to be a pharm student or something along those lines...


I minored in pharmacology in undergrad



you should know that almost anything with high enough concentrations can be carcinogenic.


Exactly. Thats why I dont think humans should be smearing generous amounts of BP on their skin (think of your skin as an external organ)

Welcome to the discussion

[dingbat]

I'd like to see the full studies to know how much BP was given and how often.

[Mr Wiggles]

Mr. Wiggles I am curious about your background.


Organic Chemistry minor in molecular pharmacology

Currently in Graduate school doing Amino Acid research under Dr. Scott Mazak and Prof. Lori Miller



Where did you acquire all this information on BP and what knowledge do you have of dermatology?

I am somewhat well read in that area. I found some literature today in my university library. Some of the studies in it would really scare you guys away from BP. I unfortunately do not have a scanner, so I will try and scan it later this week.

[frances]

"Internet gurus" seems like another one of your put-downs Mr Wiggles. Is being unpleasant really a useful or neccesary part to your discussion?

[Mr Wiggles]

"Internet gurus" seems like another one of your put-downs Mr Wiggles. Is being unpleasant really a useful or neccesary part to your discussion?

Well Im not sure what you want me to call them. Trust me, that was not a put down. Im not trying to be unpleasent, I suppose my tone comes off condescending, but I am not trying to be that way. I am really a nice guy, and very humble.

[Artemis]

Mr Wiggles, I'm still curious about your motivations (please see my initial post above), and I'm sure many others in the community share my concerns.

Again, this is not meant as an accusation. It is pure curiosity, and it might also help us understand where you're coming from, and why.

Why are you so committed to dissuading a group of strangers whom you've never met from the use of bp? Is this just a personal crusade, for private-yet-powerful reasons? Perhaps you've experienced some undesirable side-effect of bp in the past that's now motivating you to spread the word about its dangers?

Humour me, please. Just give us an idea of your personal stake in this. At least this way, it won't seem like you're just "stirring up trouble" -- pardon the expression -- and might help convince people that your intentions are genuinely altruistic.

[Mr Wiggles]

Why are you so committed to dissuading a group of strangers whom you've never met from the use of bp?

Great question, sorry if I skipped over your post before. Im just being a messanger I suppose. I have had acne, and still get an occasional zit. The only thing that actually cleared me up was accutane, followed closely by azelex/glycolic acid. I still get the occasional flare ups, but nothing like I used to have. I am just letting everyone know the full truth behind BP so they can explore different options. I just dont think its healthy to use the amounts of BP Dan is claiming.


Is this just a personal crusade, for private-yet-powerful reasons?

Like what??



Perhaps you've experienced some undesirable side-effect of bp in the past that's now motivating you to spread the word about its dangers?

I have always been fond of BP's ability to kill bacteria, and my skin reacted well to it. But upon closer scrutiny, I think the potential life altering side effects outweigh those of even accutane...

Humour me, please. Just give us an idea of your personal stake in this. At least this way, it won't seem like you're just "stirring up trouble" -- pardon the expression -- and might help convince people that your intentions are genuinely altruistic.

My intentions are altruistic, I dont know how to convince you otherwise over the internet. I am not trying to stir up trouble, just passing along knowledge. Whats wrong with educating one of potential side effects of a drug?

[themaster]

Even if the bp did caused some kind of damage, I would say about 99% of the people will still use bp.