42 replies to this topic

[Omnivium]

alternativista, on 02 January 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

^That leaves out lectins in wheat and other gluten containing foods that make holes in the intestinal linings. Also, the lectins in soy, peanuts and kidney beans have been found to to the same. And according to an article I recently found, potatoes and rice contain some lectins that function similarly to those in wheat/gluten.

Thanks, you've been really helpful. Do lectins always make holes in the intestinal linings, or just under certain conditions? Are the foods you mentioned the only foods that contain lectins? Is avoiding food with lectins the only way to avoid intestinal damage, or is there a way to break down lectins, like with an enzyme?

[alternativista]

Omnivium, on 02 January 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

alternativista, on 02 January 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

^That leaves out lectins in wheat and other gluten containing foods that make holes in the intestinal linings. Also, the lectins in soy, peanuts and kidney beans have been found to to the same. And according to an article I recently found, potatoes and rice contain some lectins that function similarly to those in wheat/gluten.

Thanks, you've been really helpful. Do lectins always make holes in the intestinal linings, or just under certain conditions? Are the foods you mentioned the only foods that contain lectins? Is avoiding food with lectins the only way to avoid intestinal damage, or is there a way to break down lectins, like with an enzyme?

Lectins are in all foods but especially seeds, products from animals feed seeds, and nightshades like potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, etc. They are the protections the plants evolved to try to keep animals from eating them. I have found studies and articles showing that wheat and other gluten grains, soy, peanuts, kidney beans, rice and potatoes all contain lectins that harm the digestive tract. They vary in how much lectins they contain, how hard they are to destroy in proper preparation methods and how harmful the lectins are, etc I don't believe the rice and potatoes are that much of a problem except in those that are extremely intolerant/damaged. The lectins in kidney beans are pretty easy to deal with in proper cooking and food combining. Probably the same is true for peanuts if you want to eat boiled peanuts which are a big thing in the American southeast.

[Omnivium]

It seems no one is going to reply to my other list, but that list sucked anyway. I made another, more organized list, that covers what I thought to be the 3 biggest problems with digestion.







1. Improper Breakdown of Food

Treatments:
Increase stomach acid(http://www.alternati...-disorders.html)

• 
  Take betaine HCL
  
• 
  Take taurine(http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21294907)
  
• 
  Take B25 complex
  
• 
  Chew thoroughly
  
• 
  Eat spicy/bitter foods
  
• 
  Drink lemon juice(it damages your teeth)

Increase digestive enzymes(http://www.alternati...g/pancreas.html)

• 
  Take multi-enzyme supplement
  
• 
  Take pancreatin
  
• 
  Take bromelain
  
• 
  Take papain
  
• 
  Eat raw, organic fruits and vegetables, which contain enzymes

Avoid foods that you are sensitive to

• 
  Gluten
  
• 
  Dairy
  
• 
  Lectins
  
• 
  Soy
  
• 
  Anything else you are sensitive to

Chew thoroughly





2. Intestinal Permeability(Leaky Gut)(http://members.upnaw.../Leaky Gut.html)

Treatments:
Increase stomach acid(see 1)
Increase digestive enzymes(see 1)
Avoid foods that you are sensitive to(see 1)
Take zinc
Take probiotics
Take glutamine





3. Malabsorption

Treatments:
Increase stomach acid(see 1)
Increase digestive enzymes(see 1)
Avoid foods that you are sensitive to(see 1)
Take probiotics(see 2)
Take a multivitamin or individual supplements





You probably noticed that there are 3 things that appear in each list of treatments. So from those, I made a short list of the treatments that I think are the most important things to try.





Treatments:

Increase stomach acid

• Take betaine HCL

Increase digestive enzymes

• Take multi-enzyme supplement
  
• Eat raw, organic fruits and vegetables, which contain enzymes

Avoid foods that you are sensitive to

• Gluten
  
• Dairy
  
• Anything else you are sensitive to

This list of treatments is more focused and organized than my first list, and I will try these treatments myself. I encourage anyone to try any of the treatments I listed and post their results, or make any comments or corrections.

[dejaclairevoyant]

I was taking glutamine for awhile to try and heal my gut but not long after I noticed it increasing breakouts and making me feel sick all over. I stopped and decided to try and heal more naturally without supplements after that.

Quote

And MSM caused me to have a really weird acne that took forever to go away.

Same.

Edited by dejaclairevoyant, 08 January 2012 - 12:31 PM.

[Omnivium]

dejaclairevoyant, on 08 January 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

I was taking glutamine for awhile to try and heal my gut but not long after I noticed it increasing breakouts and making me feel sick all over. I stopped and decided to try and heal more naturally without supplements after that.

Quote

And MSM caused me to have a really weird acne that took forever to go away.

Same.

I really don't know if glutamine would improve acne or not, I just read somewhere that it helps leaky gut. How long were you using glutamine?

How long were you using MSM? And how much were you using? MSM is supposed to give you an initial breakout while it detoxifies your body, and it might need as much as 60g per day to work. That's what this guy did: http://www.acne.org/...d=2561348&st=20

[Omnivium]

^ I should have been more specific. gilligan09 is the guy I was talking about. His post is at the bottom of page 2 in that link. He used 4 tablespoons, which I converted to 60 grams to make it easier.

[Chocobot]

My malasborption problem was sleep related. I've had numerous cases over the past two years where I didn't sleep enough (once I slept like 4 hours in three days), which always led to major digestive problems such as diarrhea and cramps, and major major acne breakouts all over my face.

Now that I realize this, I sleep properly and avoid such problems. I still avoid gluten when possible, dairy in limited quantities, etc., but I am far less intolerant to those foods than if I didn't sleep properly.

[Omnivium]

Chocobot, on 08 January 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

My malasborption problem was sleep related. I've had numerous cases over the past two years where I didn't sleep enough (once I slept like 4 hours in three days), which always led to major digestive problems such as diarrhea and cramps, and major major acne breakouts all over my face.

Now that I realize this, I sleep properly and avoid such problems. I still avoid gluten when possible, dairy in limited quantities, etc., but I am far less intolerant to those foods than if I didn't sleep properly.

I thought it was the other way around. I thought malabsorption caused insomnia, by making deficiencies in things like zinc, magnesium, and tryptophan. This guy http://www.acne.org/...c regimen draft explains why sunlight helps digestion, so maybe just having a better circadian rhythm in general helps digestion.

[alternativista]

Omnivium, on 09 January 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Chocobot, on 08 January 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

My malasborption problem was sleep related. I've had numerous cases over the past two years where I didn't sleep enough (once I slept like 4 hours in three days), which always led to major digestive problems such as diarrhea and cramps, and major major acne breakouts all over my face.

Now that I realize this, I sleep properly and avoid such problems. I still avoid gluten when possible, dairy in limited quantities, etc., but I am far less intolerant to those foods than if I didn't sleep properly.

I thought it was the other way around. I thought malabsorption caused insomnia, by making deficiencies in things like zinc, magnesium, and tryptophan. This guy http://www.acne.org/...regimen%20draft explains why sunlight helps digestion, so maybe just having a better circadian rhythm in general helps digestion.

Like with food intolerances and many other things, it works both ways. One can cause the other and vice versa. And yes, the circadian cycle affects digestion in many ways. Exposure to bright light affects carb metabolism and fructose malabsorption, as I mentioned earlier.

[Omnivium]

I came across a thread about fiber that said soluble fiber worsens leaky gut and insoluble fiber helps leaky gut. I searched on google and found all of these links that say the same thing.

http://www.crohns.ne...eogalland.shtml
http://curezone.com/...m.asp?i=1548684
http://www.natmedtal...tary-fiber.html
http://www.smhomeopa.../product77.html
http://www.perfect10....asp?Urlid=7655
http://thebodycarere...-for-leaky-gut/

They all seemed to agree that cellulose was the best source of fiber for supplementation, since it is mostly insoluble fiber. Maybe I will add it to my list. Any thoughts?

[Omnivium]

I'm sorry if anyone was expecting me to try any of the treatments on my list soon. It's taking forever to find out if MSM helps with my acne or not. It doesn't help that I ran out for a few days before I got more MSM. The good news is I already have betaine HCL and a multi-enzyme supplement, because I've been buying different supplements at the same time. Whether MSM helps or not, I still plan on trying betaine HCL after MSM. It might be a few more weeks though...

[Omnivium]

I finally had enough of MSM. It broke me out the entire time I used it. Today I started using betaine HCL.

How to use it: Basically you just take one pill at the beginning of the first meal. If you don't feel a slight burning sensation, then take two pills at the beginning of the second meal. Keep increasing the number of pills until you feel the heat in your stomach. Once you feel it, decrease the dosage by one pill and use that many until you feel the slight burning again, then keep decreasing the amount.

I should mention two things. First, my body is sensitive to everything, so I may not be able to tolerate high dosages. Second, I don't know if I have low stomach acid or not. I'm using betaine HCL to find out. If I don't have low stomach acid, I might not use this for very long.

I am using Swanson brand betaine HCL with pepsin. It contains 324mg of betaine HCL and 14mg of pepsin per capsule.

I have a separate betaine HCL log that can be found here: http://www.acne.org/...__fromsearch__1 If you have any responses to betaine HCL specifically, please post them there. That is where I will be updating my progress with betaine HCL. I will still post major details here, but I don't want to have too many posts that are kind of off topic on this thread.

[Omnivium]

I decided to stop using betaine HCL after day 14. I never showed any improvement, I started getting some signs of too much stomach acid, and I think it made my skin a little worse than normal. Apparently betaine HCL doesn't work for everyone, but now I know I have the right amount of stomach acid. At least it didn't destroy my stomach. After I stopped using it, I didn't get any signs of indigestion or anything, so after using 4 pills per meal for 14 days, it did not affect my natural stomach acid production.

If you want to try betaine HCL, you should already have indigestion regularly, or else you don't have low stomach acid. Symptoms of indigestion are gas, bloating, acid reflux, abdominal pain, constipation, etc.

I'm going to take a break from digestion for a while. After betaine HCL not helping at all, and some research, I decided to focus on blood sugar for now. If I ever get around to using the digestive enzymes, I will post that information here.

[Omnivium]

I started eating a low glycemic load diet, and it helps, but not enough. I still feel like digestion puts too much stress on my body, so I started taking the digestive enzymes. Here is a link to my log: http://www.acne.org/...__fromsearch__1

[Riddled]

I am interested in this too. Especially Soluble and Insoluble fibre.

I need to come back to this when i have more time.

[Omnivium]

Riddled, on 12 February 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

I am interested in this too. Especially Soluble and Insoluble fibre.

I need to come back to this when i have more time.

I tried soluble fiber before. It, like many things, gave me insomnia. I think that was because soluble fiber is hard to digest and it may even damage the intestines. I kind of forgot everything I learned about fiber, but right now I am under the impression that insoluble fiber should be taken and soluble fiber should not.

[Riddled]

I need to read through all the info but to be honest i'm too lazy and computers stress me out. Anyway here are some of my thoughts and observations in a random manner:


I'm pretty sure i have some form of Malabsorption but i have no idea if it is related to my acne or not.

I find the whole malabsorption thing seriously confusing.

I have a lot of IBS [Irritable Bowel symptoms] basically farting, burbing, loose bowel movements etc.

I have a gut feeling most IBS is basically malabsorption.

I think my malabsorption is related to fructose somehow which may have lead to some kind of bacterial overgrowth/disbalance [SIBO etc]. I think malabsorption is caused by food intolerances as mentioned. Depending on your ancestors evolutionary background, IMHO, you genetics etc will have adapted better to eating some kinds of foods rather than others. In my case i think, digestion wise anyway, i can handle Meat and Dairy fine, sugar [glucose anyway] fine, small amounts of starch. I am not so good with legumes, fruits and vegetables and large amounts of starch. I am terrible with soluble fibre as you have mentioned, but this may just be a side effect from the others. As i am opposed to the eating of any animal products, ethically this is a serious mind fuck from God for me.

I have done low carb diets [ketogenic] before which improved my digestion [nice hard firm Bm's - zero wiping, much less gas] but i felt like shit, i never adapted and lost speed and strength, my acne also got worse.

I have done low Gluten and 0 Gluten with no results either way, no improvement with digestion, if anything i had more burping and upper digestory gas[ that was probably from an increase in starch though], acne was no different either way.

I have done zero dairy, didn't change digestion or acne.

I have done different types of Paleo - no grains, with tubers etc - none made any difference to digestion or acne , if anything made digestion worse with increase in gas and loosness of Bm's.

All probiotics improve my digestion and Bm's especially [hard and less wiping, more mucus etc - nice eh]

All probiotics break me out. I have tried persevering before but the breakouts just continue - go figure.


Have to go will write more later.

[Omnivium]

You already tried all of the diets that I am not yet willing to try. Maybe you have low stomach acid? I tried taking betaine HCL supplements, but they didn't do anything for me. Looking back, I probably shouldn't have tried them because I don't normally have any kind of indigestion. But maybe they can work for you.

It's weird that a low carb diet would make your acne worse. I recently started a low glycemic load diet, and my acne improved, but it's not enough to clear my skin.

I didn't even know probiotics could break someone out. How many different strains did you try? If you have a bacterial imbalance, then you might need more of some strains and less of others. Also, I read somewhere that bad bacteria can actually use our nutrients and cause deficiencies. It would suck to have a bacterial imbalance, because I don't know if there is a way to correct it. I've tried probiotics myself, but they didn't do anything...

I've been thinking about acne a lot lately, and the only thing that I can come up with that makes sense is that our modern diets cause acne. I'm assuming that people in unindustrialized societies don't have much acne, and everyone a few hundred years ago didn't have much acne. So what are we doing differently now that would cause acne? The obvious answer is diet, and there are a few other things like pollution, lack of exercise, staying inside all day, etc. So I'm assuming our crappy diets screw up our bodies somehow and make us intolerant to things that our grandparents ate with no problem, like milk and bread. But I don't know exactly how our diets mess up our bodies, and I don't know if our brokenness can be completely reversed. I don't want to end up like some people here that will avoid many foods for the rest of their lives.

The main things I think bad diets cause are insulin resistance, inflammation, and/or bacterial imbalance. The first two can be helped by eating low glycemic load diets and eating anti-inflammatory food instead of inflammatory food, but I don't know how to fix the third. Probiotics did nothing for me, although I only tried acidophilus.

P.S. I like your signature. A little humor is a nice addition to acne.org.

[Riddled]

I have been banging my head against the wall with this diet crap for years now. I get motivated now and then but then usually just give up and give in to temptation. If i had the brains i would have worked it out by now or if i was rich i would have just gone and got a load of tests done and got it all out of the way. Thinking you have finally found the answer over and over can get a little demoralising after a while. As with most things in life either you stay on top of the diet, acne etc it or it will stay on top of you [AND CRUSH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]


I think a possible explanation for why a low carb diet broke me out or didn't improve things anyway, is saturated fat seems to be one of my main triggers and on a low carb diet it's pretty unavoidable. I went no/low PUFA [Polyunsaturated fatty acids] once and things got worse if anything, the saturated fat connection possibly explains this as i replaced all PUFAs with fats such as butter and beef dripping etc. Also something like Histamine could be a factor i suppose [ i have done low histamine diet which didn't do anything either lol]

Reasons for saturated fat breaking me out would seem to be either Hormonal or something to do with the liver. I'm not sure which one though.

I have tried a few different brands and strains etc[whatever you call them] of probiotics but they didn't really do much. I saw much bigger results with yogurt and especially home made sauerkraut. If probiotics don't break you out i would try good quality yoghurt or home made sauerkraut. Not that hard to make. You can simply buy some decent yoghurt then get a largish jar and put some of the yoghurt in there before it's finished then warm some milk up so it's not too hot too touch then mix them up, screw on the lid and keep it somewhere warm. Ie if it's cold on top of a towel on the radiator, in the airing cupboard etc.

I actually have a tub of unopened HCL tablets. When i get bloating i tend to get heartburn and acid reflux and when you research these there is another mind fuck of conflicting information out there. Conventional medicine says you have TOO MUCH ACID and then the whole alternative crew say you have TOO LITTLE ACID. Because i have a history of ulcers in family i have put these off so far. Btw the whole ulcer - H-pylori bacteria - high/low acid -antibiotics connection is another shit load of fun. It is possible i guess that something like H-pylori is the root of all my problems.




To me acne seems to be an autoimmune/immunological disease/disorder. Along with the rise of acne there has been a rise in all the immune disorders such as asthma, hay fever, IBD etc.

The hygiene hypothesis makes sense to me, that line of thought anyway:

http://en.wikipedia....iene_hypothesis

As you have said apart from our diets our lifestyles have changed massively over the last few hundred years. As the hygiene theory suggests, we have become much cleaner which means our immune system have less to deal with, so to speak, so they become "over-active". The much often demonised parasites, even, may have actually been playing an important role in immunoregulation. As this kind of thing suggests:

http://en.wikipedia....minthic_therapy

Interesting article when you have the time:

http://www.guardian....rence-tim-adams


That kind of thing is probably unrealistic in todays world so the key to me seems to be immunoregulation through other means the easiest one being Gut Flora balance and hence prevention of malabsorption as this may well be what is leading to it in the first place.



Have a butchers at this:

http://www.medicalda...-fiber-diet.htm

http://www.pnas.org/...7/14/1005963107

This links to the whole fibre and flora/gut bacteria thing. Soluble fibre basically feeds bacteria in your gut, this is almost always considered a good thing except in a few cases regarding IBS etc as mentioned in your links[which i need to read]. It would seem to me soluble fibre only becomes a problem as a result of a disbalance of gut bacteria in the first place. If you look on these boards and google nearly all the connections between fibre and acne are positive, plenty of people say fibre helps their acne, this would suggest if you have the right balance of bacteria in the first place that maybe you just maybe need more of them etc which you do by giving them more to eat [soluble fibre]. But then you do get people saying fibre made no difference or made them worse, apart from the possibility these peoples acne may have nothing to do with gut bacteria, they may just be the ones like me with the "disbalance".


What confuses me is that feeding your gut bacteria is a good thing for most people when they are "balanced" and as farting and gas production are a by product of gut bacteria fermentation how do you know farting etc are "good" and when they are "bad". I think maybe Bowel Movements are a better indicator. When i have my "Sloppy Joes" they almost always feel "warm" [LMFAO] it feels to me like some serious fermentation has been going on up there. My loose Sloppy Joes are almost like cow shits which i guess they are like they are because of all the fermentation. If you look at Gorillas i think they have a lot more gut flora than us and they are more like cows than us even though their guts are much closer to ours, than cows, with all their stomachs. I think because Gorillas eat so much vegetation and virtually no meat they really on all the gut bacteria for their protein fix. The problem with humans and this "over-fermentation" is that maybe it inhibits the absorption of vital nutrients. Hence this being one of the problems with malabsorption leading to gut flora disbalance. Maybe we have evolved to be not so reliant on the gut bacteria, in terms of nutrition anyway, so it has ended actually inhibiting nutrition rather than supporting it, when it goes all wrong that is.

I'm not sure how this connects to the immunoregulation side of things, maybe they are both as important as each other and one is more important than the other in different people.

It does connect to acne though as there is a connection for malabsorption - gut bacteria - inhibition of nutrients and acne, and insomnia as you mention regarding soluble fibre. This is explained in Databased thread as you also mention.

The malabsorption could be different things depending on your genetic heritage etc. In my case i think it points towards fructose maybe, this person explains how malabsorption can lead to problems like insomnia and others [others mention acne]:

http://avthompson.wo...ption-disorder/

I don't think farting and digestive disorders are always present or show with malabsorption, it seems with some people they just get mental symptoms such as insomnia and mood alteration through inhibition of nutrients such as tryptophan.


If you look at that link and discussions about malabsorption in general it does seem probiotics are to be avoided which i guess gives an explanation as to why they might be breaking me out. What confuses the f out of me is that probiotics tend to improve my digestion and BMs which kind of contradicts my theory that my loose bowel movements are caused by over fermentation of gut bacteria.

Also there doesn't seem to be much discussion about fibre or i haven't looked properly enough. They do mention inulin alot and other "prebiotics" what i don't understand is why isn't soluble fibre a "prebiotic" if its feeding the gut bacteria?

I need to look into soluble fibre and its connection to malabsorption more. I don't understand how if you are suffering through the symptoms of malabsorption which basically causes overgrowth/disbalance of gut bacteria why isn't soluble fibre a problem?


Insoluble fibre is often chastised by the paleo preachers and other health alternatives who say it basically tears up your guts, they all tend to praise soluble while demonising insoluble. I think personally i may be fine with insoluble fibre, i think it may actually help bowel movements and firm them up, the only problem is i am having great trouble trying to find sources of it without soluble also being there.

i have been messing around with fibre for a while and what i have found is i tend to digest crappy processed cereals and breads with refined grains better than wholegrain cereals and bread. I can eat a bowl of crappy cereal like cornflakes etc fine[i don't eat ones with fructose syrup in] but i think cereals like shredded wheat and whole wheat bread make me fart. I know things like Ryvita [Rye crispbreads] give me wild gas. But i have bag of Wheat fibre which is like nearly 50% fibre and i seem to able to handle that alright. That suggests to me that maybe it is nearly all insoluble maybe. God knows.

I could do with some lists of the soluble and insoluble contents of foods. I have been maintaining a low fructose diet for a while now but it seems i need to limit soluble fibre as well, i just wonder if that actually leaves me any nutritious foods left? I need to find out what vegetables there are that have no or low soluble fibre in them. i presume a diet of meat,dairy and starch can't be all that "healthy".

Anyway it's clear i need to do some more dreaded reading.

Stress is bad no doubt, most likely plays a significant role in acne. Computers and researching stresses me out - stress - acne - to clear acne must research - computer - stress - acne - THE CYCLE OF HELL.

It's all connected........................ somehow.

[Omnivium]

So much reading...it's like the more research you do, the more research there is to do.

It's interesting that you digest processed grains better than unprocessed. I might be the same way. I know soluble fiber supplements give me insomnia, but I'm pretty sure that plain oats gave me insomnia too. (Plain oats are somehow higher in soluble fiber than oatmeal packets) I used to eat oatmeal packets every morning with no problem, and then one day I decided to try the plain oats because they were supposedly healthy. Like two days after I started eating the plain oats, I got insomnia. It could have been from supplements or something else, but it was most likely the plain oats. Now that I think about it, that was the only time I got insomnia from food.

Were you getting the types of fiber mixed up? I always thought it was the soluble fiber that tears up your guts. According to wikipedia, soluble fiber forms a gel and slows down digestion and prevents blood sugar spikes. Insoluble fiber just makes it easier to have bowel movements. It also said that slower digestion makes you absorb less nutrients, but I thought it made you absorb more. So confusing...

I should do some research on the immune system. It obviously has something to do with inflammation, and therefore, acne. I'm so tired of all this researching that leads nowhere.

Earlier I said somehting about acne being a modern disease caused by modern diet, but then I found an article that said people wrote about acne over 2,000 years ago. http://www.ncbi.nlm....d00581-0015.pdf It's things like this that discourage research entirely. It's like I have to start all over and rethink everything I thought about acne. (Sigh)

Maybe research doesn't help at all. All the research in the world isn't going to make your skin clear. The only thing I can really know is how my body reacts to what I put in it. It's exhausting, but I'm still gonna do both research and trial-and-error.