196 replies to this topic

[joconnor]

Hi Guys,
Great thread - great read & congrats to you CROSS'ers!

Can anyone tell me a good way of figureing out if i have icepick scars or not suitable for crossing?
Im just reading Jacobs et al study and i think i have all rolling scars with one maybe 1 or boxcars. No icepick
Thanks!

[Sam Witwicky]

Hi everyone!

Sorry I haven't posted in a while; I was studying abroad.

First of all, this...

cyrano de beakiswack, on 05 December 2011 - 06:23 PM, said:

Finally: PRICE. This might be the thing that dissuades you from going. I paid 225 dollars to get five pores CROSSED. the visit took about twenty minutes.

... Is ridiculous. No offense to you, cyrano, I'm happy to hear things are going well, but nobody should be paying that much for one TCA CROSS session - let alone to have only 5 pores (not even scars) crossed. And 20 minutes is the time Rene takes to cross all of my scarring lol.

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All jokes aside, the price was steep, but im comparing this session to the session I had with Renee, which was performed free. Obviously Renee is a) pretty altruistic and b) not a qualified medical doctor. Both of these things explain a lot of the price discrepancy.

Not exactly.

You don't have to be a qualified medical doctor to perform the TCA CROSS, nor is it a valid reason for charging more than others to perform it; Dr. Bargman charges that much, because that's how much he wants to charge his patients. Furthermore, Rene doesn't decide the prices - Dr. Billick (the qualified medical doctor) does; she works under him. She simply didn't charge you, because there was really no need to, for 5 pores! Not to mention, she was testing your skin (as I mentioned before, at my consultation with her, she crossed one scar for free, to see how it would respond to the threatment).

The reason why Dr. Billick/Rene can do that and charge about a hundred dollars less than Dr. Bargman, is because their services are non-profit. This is why I expressed my preference of hospital clinics, over private clinics. What he charged you once for 5 pores = how much I pay Rene for two sessions where every scar on my entire face (behind the ears included) is crossed. Big, big difference.

All you need to perform the CROSS is experience and a sturdy hand, which Rene has (I mean, she crosses her own face, for crying out loud lol). Therefore, there is absolutely no reason for Dr. Bargman to charge twice as much, except for the fact that he wants to make more money. I've had 3 crosses thus far, on my entire face, and I've only had to pay about $350, overall. Oh, and this includes scarred pores - which, by the way, continue to improve.

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Also, he was curious about the work Renee is doing in Montreal with TCA CROSS. He claimed to have sent her all the information on the procedure as recently as a year ago, when she phoned and asked him for it.

False.

Dr. Bargman is confusing Rene with my former dermatologist's clinic (Dr. Bisson); they're the ones who contacted him, over a year ago, inquiring about the CROSS (because I brought it to his attention) - not Rene; Rene has been doing this for much longer than that.

I'm glad to hear your experience with Dr. Bargman was far more positive than most, and in no way do I want this thread to turn into a Rene vs Dr. Bargman debacle, but I just wanted to correct a few of the things you mentioned. In my opinion, Rene is not only more caring and thorough, but you get what you pay for with her, which is significantly less than Dr. Bargman; it's a no brainer, really. The qualified medical doctor point is irrelevant. I'd much rather get the same service and pay what it's worth, while putting myself in the hands of a genuinely caring person, than pay extra for Dr. Bargman's tennis lessons lol.

Ultimately, it's up to the scar sufferers to decide, but since this is my thread, I want to make sure they have all the right info, in order to do so.

austra, on 15 December 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:

Hello Sam. I was just wondering that since you once experienced one scar enlarging after TCA cross - what happened to it afterwards? Did it remain enlarged or did it shrink back later?

Rene fixed it up and made sure it shrunk back.

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I just had TCA Cross done and most of my scabs have fallen off now on day 13. On closer inspection, most scars look the same, but there is one used-to-be-smallish icepick (/very small rolling scar?) that is significantly deeper and possibly wider than before. It's also the reddest of all the scars. I was just wondering, if this is a bad omen and I would have to treat it more later to compensate for this badly gone treatment, or if this was normal.

(I actually started a panicky thread about this after the scab fell off, you might have noticed >__>)

Thanks! I hope everything goes well with your treatments. You seem to be responding really well

Don't panic; some scars will appear a tad larger, at first. Plus, as you continue having CROSSes done, the person performing them will work out the kinks. Still, make sure you point it out to them, at your next session, if it is still enlarged.

joconnor, on 05 January 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Hi Guys,
Great thread - great read & congrats to you CROSS'ers!

Can anyone tell me a good way of figureing out if i have icepick scars or not suitable for crossing?
Im just reading Jacobs et al study and i think i have all rolling scars with one maybe 1 or boxcars. No icepick
Thanks!

The TCA CROSS Method is for icepick scarring and definitely not for rolling scars - that would be subcision.

Edited by Sam Witwicky, 30 January 2012 - 04:30 PM.

[cyrano de beakiswack]

Hi folks,

just wanted to respond to a couple points raised by Sam in the last post regarding the price I paid and the justification I offered for paying said price:

I don't argue that 225 dollars is a lot to charge in comparison to the zero dollars I spent on my first procedure, or the 100 dollars Sam has been spending on his procedures. However, I was happy to pay it, because I was extremely confident that the procedure would work. Terming that fee "ridiculous" is an entirely subjective opinion that I imagine would not be shared by many acne scar sufferers. I am sure I could round up a hundred people on these boards who would gladly fork over 225$ for the kind of improvement I've seen, no matter if the actual procedure only lasted a minute. Because the length of time the procedure takes is of secondary consequence compared to the results it brings...my results have been great!

I wanted to post about my experience with Dr. Bargman so that board users could have more info about CROSS options available in their area. What if someone in Toronto is suffering from ice pick scars and wants a pro to perform TCA CROSS on them? They should know that there is an option near them that, with all costs considered, might actually run cheaper than making a trip to Montreal. All things being equal I'd PREFER to go to Rene because she's nice, and she's pretty, and she certainly conveys more empathy to the patient, but darnnit, I got good results with Dr. Bargman and if I was doing it all over again I would spend the exact same amount of money and be happy I spent it!!

[Sam Witwicky]

cyrano de beakiswack, on 30 January 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

Terming that fee "ridiculous" is an entirely subjective opinion that I imagine would not be shared by many acne scar sufferers.

Just because they are acne sufferers, doesn't mean that they should be low-balled, cyrano.

$225 is way too much for 5 pores! That's not a subjective opinion, it's simply logic. A logic I imagine would be shared by many acne scar sufferers.

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I am sure I could round up a hundred people on these boards who would gladly fork over 225$ for the kind of improvement I've seen, no matter if the actual procedure only lasted a minute.

And I'll round up the rest of the people on this board, who would prefer having the same procedure done, by an equal competent person, for half the price. And by half the price, I'm being generous, because if Dr. Bargman charged you $225 for 5 pores, who knows how much he would charge people who have far more serious icepick scarring, which is the majority of the members on here who suffer from icepick scarring.

And just because it works for you, doesn't mean those who will "fork over $225", will get your kind of improvement. Nothing is guaranteed. Hence why the free test scar by Rene is something most will hold highly.

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Because the length of time the procedure takes is of secondary consequence compared to the results it brings...my results have been great!

Of course the length of time of the procedure is secondary lol. But, 20 minutes for 5 pores? I was simply pointing out how long I think that is.

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I wanted to post about my experience with Dr. Bargman so that board users could have more info about CROSS options available in their area. What if someone in Toronto is suffering from ice pick scars and wants a pro to perform TCA CROSS on them? They should know that there is an option near them that, with all costs considered, might actually run cheaper than making a trip to Montreal.

Dr. Bargman has been mentioned numerous times (including by myself), in this thread; therefore he has been listed as an option already and was made available for the members of this forum. Not to mention, there have been a couple threads/posts about him. There's no reason to get defensive and explain your intentions behind your testimonial- we're aware it's to inform and it is greatly appreciated. I was just giving my opinion on it, while pointing out a few inaccuracies.

Funny thing is, if you factor in the bus ticket to Montreal and back, it'll cost you the same amount to go see Rene lol. Shit, given what Dr. Bargman charges for 5 pores, it might even be CHEAPER for many to come to Montreal and have it done by her, instead.

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All things being equal I'd PREFER to go to Rene because she's nice, and she's pretty, and she certainly conveys more empathy to the patient, but darnnit, I got good results with Dr. Bargman and if I was doing it all over again I would spend the exact same amount of money and be happy I spent it!!

If length of time for the procedure is secondary, then Rene's looks are a non-issue. I'm sure the results she got from crossing her own scars really helped her in that department.

But, yeah, I go to Rene because she's genuinely caring, makes herself available to take your calls, is competent, experienced and has improved ALL (not just my pores) my scarring. Again, I'm very happy to hear about your improvement, cyrano, regardless of who made it happen for you, but I just don't see why anyone would go to Dr. Bargman, when he charges double, to treat far less scarring.

Edited by Sam Witwicky, 30 January 2012 - 05:50 PM.

[cyrano de beakiswack]

"I've been searching for awhile and the only derm/surgeon around my area that I was able to find was Dr. Bargman, in Toronto. However, I've heard horrible things about his bedside manner and that's enough for me to X him out."

Seeing as that's the only reference to Dr. Bargman in this thread, I felt that it might be a good idea to offer an alternative, or at least mildlly balanced viewpoint from someone who availed of his services firsthand.

Prior to my second treatment, I looked into going back to Montreal to see Rene (who again, I was MORE than happy with) but found that with bus tickets, a room for a night, and two days off work instead of one (PLUS a fee that I had budgeted to be fifty to a hundred dollars, seeing as it's highly unlikely she'd treat me again for free) Dr. Bargman would have had to charge in excess of three hundred and fifty dollars to make Montreal the more financially attractive option.

The "correct" price for a good or service is determined at the price intersection of supply and demand. Supply of TCA CROSS is low- there's one practioner in Toronto, and the next closest practioner is either in Montreal or the USA. My Demand for TCA CROSS was high- high enough that I was willing to pay at the price Bargman was willing to sell. Therefore the price I paid was the correct price.


So, like I say, to those living in the Golden Horseshoe, you might want to consider Dr. Bargman. In my estimation, the pleasantness of one's personality- and indeed the purity of one's motives- are in no way correlated to the steadiness of their hand. My results were great with both carers, even though the experience of their company was quite different.

I think we can all agree that there are a few different ways to skin a cat, or in this case, fill a scar.

[Sam Witwicky]

cyrano de beakiswack, on 30 January 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

"I've been searching for awhile and the only derm/surgeon around my area that I was able to find was Dr. Bargman, in Toronto. However, I've heard horrible things about his bedside manner and that's enough for me to X him out."

Seeing as that's the only reference to Dr. Bargman in this thread

Uh...

sygge, on 09 August 2011 - 01:32 AM, said:

Hi Sam. smile.gif Thanks for the information. I did read about Dr. Bargman in your thread, but after doing a bit of research I decided against consulting with him. I hope instead to make an appointment at your hospital at the beginning of September when I am back in Canada. I am still scared that this treatment might make my scars worse shock.gif, but it sounds like Rene knows what she's doing. Hopefully your skin is healing well. eusa_dance.gif

ellypham, on 29 September 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

Hi Samwhitwicky, I am thrilled that you are getting positive results from the TCA Cross method, I'm from toronto and I'm planning to get the TCA Cross method done by Dr.Bargman. I wanted to know if there was anything I should be aware of when going to him. Do you know if his patients were satisfied with the TCA cross? I can probably stand any type of rudeness, as long as my scars improve ;P I'm preeeeeeeetty sure my scars are boxcars and rolliNg scars, maybe icepicks?. I heard that you can improve boxcars and rolling scars with the TCA method, why arent you treating your rolling scar with the TCA cross? Also, how much is subcision and how is it done? Sorry if i'm overloading you with questions, I'm just very skeptical ;P

Sam Witwicky, on 29 September 2011 - 02:55 PM, said:

All I know about Dr. Bargman, is what I have read about him online; his poor bedside manner comes up, quite frequently.

I did speak to him over the phone, once. He told me that the patients he treats with TCA CROSS show amazing results.

As I said, Dr. Bargman has been mentioned many times in this thread, thus making his services available for the members browsing it. Including a post from me, where I'm highlighting his apparently great work, as far as results are concerned.

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I felt that it might be a good idea to offer an alternative, or at least mildlly balanced viewpoint from someone who availed of his services firsthand.

And, for the umpteenth time, I think I speak for everyone when I say, that I have no problems with that and appreciate you sharing your experience with us. That doesn't mean I agree with the low-ball price he charged you and that people should pay it, cyrano. Nor that him being a registered medical practitioner is the reason why he's entitled to charge patients far more than Dr. Billick's (registered medical practitioner) clinic.

Furthermore, implying that Rene is just pretty, nice and caring, but that Dr. Bargman generates results, is not something I can agree with, either. You got good results because you had TWO TCA CROSS sessions on 5 pores - not because Dr. Bargman did your second one lol. Speaking as someone who has had over 20 SCARS treated, PLUS pores, THREE times by Rene, and have seen very significant improvement, I felt the need to add "competent" to her list of qualities, as well.

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Prior to my second treatment, I looked into going back to Montreal to see Rene (who again, I was MORE than happy with) but found that with bus tickets, a room for a night, and two days off work instead of one (PLUS a fee that I had budgeted to be fifty to a hundred dollars, seeing as it's highly unlikely she'd treat me again for free) Dr. Bargman would have had to charge in excess of three hundred and fifty dollars to make Montreal the more financially attractive option.

Which is very plausible, since he charged you $225, for 5 pores lmao!

Sure, this could be convenient for you, but I was just saying how it might not be AS convenient for those on this board who suffer from icepick scarring, all over their face. Also, not everyone making the trip to Montreal would spend the night; ask around. Plus, this still doesn't change the fact that his prices are extremely high. I felt the need to inform members of how this price can not only increase for those with far more scarring, but how the price itself is pretty steep - which you've even admitted yourself.

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The "correct" price for a good or service is determined at the price intersection of supply and demand. Supply of TCA CROSS is low- there's one practioner in Toronto, and the next closest practioner is either in Montreal or the USA. My Demand for TCA CROSS was high- high enough that I was willing to pay at the price Bargman was willing to sell. Therefore the price I paid was the correct price.

No - the price you paid, for the areas that were treated, was pretty high. Dr. Bargman and Dr. Billick have access to same kind of TCA; he doesn't pay more for his. If he would have treated a face with light icepick scarring, for that price, I would have still found it to be a bit much, but far more reasonable. By my research, derms are averaging anywhere from 100 to 200 dollars per treatment (which includes all your face and not just one area). Not to mention, I've heard that he is not the only person in Toronto/Ontario who performs this treatment.

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So, like I say, to those living in the Golden Horseshoe, you might want to consider Dr. Bargman. In my estimation, the pleasantness of one's personality- and indeed the purity of one's motives- are in no way correlated to the steadiness of their hand. My results were great with both carers, even though the experience of their company was quite different.

And not one person is disagreeing with you, here.

Oh, and let's not forget to mention that he charges, like, triple. Steadiness of one's hand comes with experience and shouldn't be paid extra for.

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I think we can all agree that there are a few different ways to skin a cat, or in this case, fill a scar.

Yup!

But, personally, I'd rather buy the reasonably priced, less expensive and equally competent knife, to do it.

So, before this thread spirals further into the vast and infinite space of absurdity, let's just agree to disagree and move on, cyrano. As I said quite a few times already, what counts is that your pores have improved and that you are happy. I think that's something we can all agree on.

As I also said previously, I want to keep this thread spam/argument free. It is my thread, about my journey, and I'd hate for people to have to scroll passed stuff like this, to find answers to their questions. Especially, those who reside in, or are interested in coming to, Montreal.

Edited by Sam Witwicky, 30 January 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[cyrano de beakiswack]

Glad you agree with my points Sam! I'll let you get back to your thread : )

[Sam Witwicky]

cyrano de beakiswack, on 30 January 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

Glad you agree with SOME of my points Sam! I'll let you get back to your thread : )

Fixed.

And let us know how the pores go!

[allex]

I live in Toronto and I agree that TCA CROSS is probably the most effective way to deal with icepicks
I have tons of acne scars of different kinds thanks to 15 years of cystic acnes. A few years ago, I had 6 CROSS done by a Korean doctor (In Asia). Right now, although my face is still a mess, when I look closely, there are very few ickpick scars, which were mostly minimized by the CROSS process.

Now it seems I still have tons of boxcar and rolling one, especially on the left cheek and temples. Not sure how to get rid of them. Anyone know any good doctors specialized in that? I know any Laser doesn't work. I had 6 profactionals done two years ago at a cost of $2000, with close to no results whatsoever. Will fillers work for boxcar and rolling scars?

Edited by allex, 01 February 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[Sam Witwicky]

allex, on 01 February 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

I live in Toronto and I agree that TCA CROSS is probably the most effective way to deal with icepicks
I have tons of acne scars of different kinds thanks to 15 years of cystic acnes. A few years ago, I had 6 CROSS done by a Korean doctor (In Asia). Right now, although my face is still a mess, when I look closely, there are very few ickpick scars, which were mostly minimized by the CROSS process.

Always nice to hear some TCA CROSS success stories. How much would you say your icepick scars improved?

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Now it seems I still have tons of boxcar and rolling one, especially on the left cheek and temples. Not sure how to get rid of them. Anyone know any good doctors specialized in that? I know any Laser doesn't work. I had 6 profactionals done two years ago at a cost of $2000, with close to no results whatsoever. Will fillers work for boxcar and rolling scars?

Personally, I had two rolling scars, my whole life.

As I said a bunch of times in this thread: both pretty much vanished with subcision.

Edited by Sam Witwicky, 02 February 2012 - 07:00 PM.

[itsthepitts]

Hey all, thanks for selflessly sharing and on the regular too.
I'm in toronto Can. First time I've been compelled to post.
I've been trying to target acne scarring for about 4 years..
glycolic peels every other week for almost a year.. that same doctor told me my scarring was too small to fill.. and didn't offer any other 'solutions', between 2010 and 2011 last year I spent a few thousand dollars on Profractional laser sessions, had 3 sessions, last session was about 8 months ago, so I believe that is ample time to see whether or not collagen was improved/increased.. and I don't really see a change.. I certainly don't see anything substantial enough to merit over 2 grand gone. That procedure kept out of commission for 1 weeks each time. I had such a swollen face, it was bloody for a good half of the week, hubby was affraid to look at me! yet no long term gain.. only while my face was swollen did the scarring look improved

also it's the first time i've heard of TCA CROSS. I'm very excited to see how this goes. I ordered my kit from that julie person.. I could not find any other place to buy the kit. I will try to do one or two scars on myself and see what happens.
I'll also endeavor to keep you posted on progress or lack thereof.. but I hope there is indeed positive results : )
Thx again for your zealous posts and ithe nformative nature of your posts.

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[Sam Witwicky]

itsthepitts, on 07 February 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Hey all, thanks for selflessly sharing and on the regular too.
I'm in toronto Can. First time I've been compelled to post.

Wow - I'm honored that it was in my thread. Good for you, fellow Canadian.

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I've been trying to target acne scarring for about 4 years..
glycolic peels every other week for almost a year.. that same doctor told me my scarring was too small to fill.. and didn't offer any other 'solutions',

Those are great for superficial scarring, such as marks/spots and hyperpigmentation, but other than, not gonna do much for you, as far as scarring is concerned.

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between 2010 and 2011 last year I spent a few thousand dollars on Profractional laser sessions, had 3 sessions, last session was about 8 months ago, so I believe that is ample time to see whether or not collagen was improved/increased.. and I don't really see a change.. I certainly don't see anything substantial enough to merit over 2 grand gone. That procedure kept out of commission for 1 weeks each time. I had such a swollen face, it was bloody for a good half of the week, hubby was affraid to look at me! yet no long term gain.. only while my face was swollen did the scarring look improved

Lasers are such a waste of money and downtime, in my (and many others) opinion. They're going to smooth out the scar and, if you're lucky, make it look somewhat better. But, overall? Not worth the price and recovery time.

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also it's the first time i've heard of TCA CROSS. I'm very excited to see how this goes. I ordered my kit from that julie person.. I could not find any other place to buy the kit. I will try to do one or two scars on myself and see what happens.

Yeah, most people on here, who want to perform the CROSS on themselves, order the kit from Julie. I've only read great things about the TCA she sells.

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I'll also endeavor to keep you posted on progress or lack thereof.. but I hope there is indeed positive results : )
Thx again for your zealous posts and ithe nformative nature of your posts.

Based on your pictures, you definitely look like the perfect candidate for TCA; your scarring is mild and not too deep.

Goodluck and please always exercise extreme caution when CROSSING your scars on your own - you don't want to make them worse.

Also, please do keep us posted - many CROSSERS have found a home in this thread, and you're more than welcome to join them; we can all support and help each-other.

Edited by Sam Witwicky, 14 February 2012 - 08:03 PM.

[itsthepitts]

Ok I got my TCA Cross kit from Julie. It came with two sizes of picks, one set is longer and the tip of which is slightly larger/wider.
and another bunch of tiny picks- perfect for my ice pick scars. no pain really, frosting lasted less than 3 hours.. then you can see the scars appear more noticeable/pronounced. I was able to wear makeup and go to work hours later that day.
day 1 following the application, seemed the same as the day of application. day 2 you can see red.. i guess the beginning of 'scabbing' in those scars which I applied the TCA. I think because my scars are smaller -many of them, but small, so i am not really feeling embarassed to go out.. but i do wear makeup, so im pleased that the treatment hasn't prevented me from being able to wear makeup either.
will keep you posted.

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[Emhfali]

any updates here?

[itsthepitts]

i feel like my skin has improved.
The original photos weren't taken in day light, which to me is the most unforgiving light.. so in my opinion the original pictures posted don't reflect the depth of the original skin condition.. nor the numerous icepicks. I posted 'em though to get a feel for whether i was an ideal candidate for the process.
ANyways, these attachment were taken in day light and are about 4 days after session 3. for session 3 i only did a few scars.
From what I can observe the depth of nearly all my scars are heavily reduced. I feel more comfortable with my skin.
After session 2, i gave my skin about 6.5 weeks before doing another treatment and was very pleased..
I do beleive these pictures are not fully accurate of my improvement since they are still reflecting some scabs from session 3 done only a few days ago.

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[myskin2012]

itsthepitts, on 07 May 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

i feel like my skin has improved.
The original photos weren't taken in day light, which to me is the most unforgiving light.. so in my opinion the original pictures posted don't reflect the depth of the original skin condition.. nor the numerous icepicks. I posted 'em though to get a feel for whether i was an ideal candidate for the process.
ANyways, these attachment were taken in day light and are about 4 days after session 3. for session 3 i only did a few scars.
From what I can observe the depth of nearly all my scars are heavily reduced. I feel more comfortable with my skin.
After session 2, i gave my skin about 6.5 weeks before doing another treatment and was very pleased..
I do beleive these pictures are not fully accurate of my improvement since they are still reflecting some scabs from session 3 done only a few days ago.

did you have 100% TCA?

[itsthepitts]

99% - the Cross kit from that Julie person at perfectcomplexion...