10 replies to this topic

[helpchicken]

Hey guys I have noticed lately that my face has become pretty shiny despite the fact i do not use a moisturizer in the morning. When i was on DKR, i used Cetaphil moisturizer on my face every morning, which made my face pretty shiny during the day. However, now that i am off DKR, i only cleanse my face in the morning and do not use moisturizer since my face is much less dry without BP. I still moisturize at night, however. Any reason why my face is still looking shiny, despite not having any moisturizer on my face during the day? My forehead, where i don't use anything, is normal, so i don't think its because my face has suddenly become oily, which i've never had a problem with, but any input would be nice on how to fix this problem

EDIT: I'm using Eucerin gentle cleanser on my face and Paula's 2% BHA lotion (only at night) if that makes a difference.

Edited by helpchicken, 12 March 2011 - 02:24 PM.

[Ella12]

When did you discontinue DKR? I had a HUGE problem with dryness and oiliness simultaneously when I was using Cetaphil lotion and BP, and even though I stopped using it 3-4 weeks ago, I still have a lot of shine (and some dryness). Your skin does take a while to adapt to new regimens.

Something I've noticed with moisturizing products is that the skin doesn't always recognize their presence, so you'll still have a lot of sebum production to compensate for the dryness caused by BP, harsh soaps/cleansers, etc. If the excess shine continues, you might want to consider discontinuing your current moisturizer and replacing it with pure jojoba oil (it's actually a liquid wax--technically not an oil). Because the chemical composition of jojoba is so similar to that of sebum, your skin is likely to recognize it as a valid moisturizer and then not produce as much of its own oil.

A lot of acne-prone people do really well with jojoba, but not everyone does (this is the case with any product, though). I started using it last month, and it controlled shine really well for me, but I switched up my regimen because I experienced a bad breakout that was merely getting worse. However, I was also using a new soap, so I can't be sure that the jojoba was the culprit. I'm thinking about trying it again when my breakout clears up (without that soap this time), just to see if my skin can tolerate it or not. Remember that a little goes a long way--a few drops can moisturize your entire face.

I think jojoba is worth a shot. If it doesn't work for ya, you'll know not to use it again. But if your skin tolerates it AND it controls shine, then that's a perfect solution! Totally up to you.

[helpchicken]

thanks for the info, i'll think about using jojoba oil now, although im hesitant with all of the bad experiences I've heard of with the product. Are there any other good moisturizing options? i've heard maybe shea or emu oil, but im not familiar with either

[bryan]

Something I've noticed with moisturizing products is that the skin doesn't always recognize their presence, so you'll still have a lot of sebum production to compensate for the dryness caused by BP, harsh soaps/cleansers, etc. If the excess shine continues, you might want to consider discontinuing your current moisturizer and replacing it with pure jojoba oil (it's actually a liquid wax--technically not an oil). Because the chemical composition of jojoba is so similar to that of sebum, your skin is likely to recognize it as a valid moisturizer and then not produce as much of its own oil.

Sigh. Those are just tired old fallacies. The skin doesn't "compensate" for dryness by producing sebum, and putting jojoba oil onto your skin doesn't make it produce less sebum. Moisturizers per se have no effect on sebum production, unless you pick one that also has some potent drug-like action in it (like sex-hormone agonists or antagonists, for example, or Accutane).

[Ella12]

Sigh. Those are just tired old fallacies. The skin doesn't "compensate" for dryness by producing sebum, and putting jojoba oil onto your skin doesn't make it produce less sebum. Moisturizers per se have no effect on sebum production, unless you pick one that also has some potent drug-like action in it (like sex-hormone agonists or antagonists, for example, or Accutane).

Just speaking from personal experience, Bryan.

[{DC}]

When did you discontinue DKR? I had a HUGE problem with dryness and oiliness simultaneously when I was using Cetaphil lotion and BP, and even though I stopped using it 3-4 weeks ago, I still have a lot of shine (and some dryness). Your skin does take a while to adapt to new regimens.

Something I've noticed with moisturizing products is that the skin doesn't always recognize their presence, so you'll still have a lot of sebum production to compensate for the dryness caused by BP, harsh soaps/cleansers, etc. If the excess shine continues, you might want to consider discontinuing your current moisturizer and replacing it with pure jojoba oil (it's actually a liquid wax--technically not an oil). Because the chemical composition of jojoba is so similar to that of sebum, your skin is likely to recognize it as a valid moisturizer and then not produce as much of its own oil.

A lot of acne-prone people do really well with jojoba, but not everyone does (this is the case with any product, though). I started using it last month, and it controlled shine really well for me, but I switched up my regimen because I experienced a bad breakout that was merely getting worse. However, I was also using a new soap, so I can't be sure that the jojoba was the culprit. I'm thinking about trying it again when my breakout clears up (without that soap this time), just to see if my skin can tolerate it or not. Remember that a little goes a long way--a few drops can moisturize your entire face.

I think jojoba is worth a shot. If it doesn't work for ya, you'll know not to use it again. But if your skin tolerates it AND it controls shine, then that's a perfect solution! Totally up to you.

How many more times are people going to perpetuate this silly myth. Jojoba is NOT going to influence the oil output of your skin. This is not a matter of personal observation - sebaceous glands dont work like that.

If I told you that ever since I started smoking 3 cigarettes per day I felt much healthier would you believe me? I could swear to you black and blue that it has definitely made an impact on my life for the better in regards to my health. No matter what I claim my personal experience to be you would not believe me due to the fact that we KNOW cigarettes are bad for your health, regardless of what my personal opinion or experience may be.

Edited by {DC}, 13 March 2011 - 07:51 PM.

[tritonxiv]

Sigh. Those are just tired old fallacies. The skin doesn't "compensate" for dryness by producing sebum, and putting jojoba oil onto your skin doesn't make it produce less sebum. Moisturizers per se have no effect on sebum production, unless you pick one that also has some potent drug-like action in it (like sex-hormone agonists or antagonists, for example, or Accutane).

Just speaking from personal experience, Bryan.

No offense but I'm also with Bryan on this one. I have long ago made the distinction between actual oil production and perceived oil production. For a variety of reasons, slathering something additional over your oily skin (even if it's another oil) can make the skin appear less oily and even skin tone, but the actual oil production levels can only only fluctuate based on -internal- factors such as hormones, accutane, B5, etc.

To the original poster: Do -not- use Jojoba oil. That will not solve the problem you posted about. If you want the solution to shiny looking skin, look at this similar thread I contributed to a few weeks back. I had the exact same problem you mentioned. Shiny skin, even when devoid of sebum. It explains how to get rid of it.

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/Oil-Produ...pe-t289707.html

[Ella12]

Huh. Well the research I've done suggests that there is a sort of communication between hormones and sebaceous glands that is at least partially affected by the status of the skin. And yet I'm also fully aware of the crucial role that hormones play in glandular activity. So I'll continue to research these things, and if I realize that I've been incorrect about something, then that's fine.

[Ella12]

Okay. Here's what I've found.

First of all, I reread the original post and found that shiny skin was the concern--not oily skin. So thank you to tritonxiv for pointing that out.

But regarding what was said about sebum production in this thread:

Apparently a lot of research was done in the mid-to-late twentieth century regarding sebum production and excretion. And yes, the research done on production is focused almost solely on hormones and hormone receptors. Which really does make sense if you have a basic understanding of the endocrine system.

Excretion, on the other hand, is more complex. In 1974, a scientist by the name of H. Eberhardt published an article entitled "The Regulation of Sebum Excretion in Man." In the abstract, he explains that a series of tests he conducted demonstrates that excretion is regulated by surface tension. I was unable to locate the full-text article through the online databases to which I subscribe, but here is a link to the abstract. You can purchase the complete article here, as well. http://www.springerlink.com/content/pv373302mt827067/

A similar study was conducted in 1982 by Millns and Maibach of the Department of Dermatology at the University of California Medical School. The study yielded similar results. I was unable to access the list of references they used in their article, but I can almost guarantee that they built upon the work of Eberhardt.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/ut32254520970266/

And really, this makes a lot of sense when you think about the nature of facial sebum. If hormones were the only cause of oily skin, people with high levels of androgens or androgen receptors would have oil dripping off of their faces all the time. But that's not how it works. Even people who tend to have really oily skin reach a point during the day where their skin has reached its oiliest point. Now this is not to say that hormones don't play a role in excretion, but the point is that there's more to the mechanism.

So here is my hypothesis. No, jojoba oil does not regulate the production of sebum. And I admit that I was incorrect before in saying otherwise. But because jojoba is so similar to sebum in its composition (do a Google Scholar search and you will find that this is indeed true), something in the skin senses the surface tension or viscosity of the jojoba oil and slows down the release of sebum onto the surface of the skin, and the sebocytes simply retain the sebum. It's probably a receptor of some sort that prevents the sebocytes from rupturing as frequently as they otherwise would. I'm not sure. But I'm done with dermatological research for the day.

Edited by Ella12, 15 March 2011 - 04:07 PM.

[bryan]

Excretion, on the other hand, is more complex. In 1974, a scientist by the name of H. Eberhardt published an article entitled "The Regulation of Sebum Excretion in Man." In the abstract, he explains that a series of tests he conducted demonstrates that excretion is regulated by surface tension. I was unable to locate the full-text article through the online databases to which I subscribe, but here is a link to the abstract. You can purchase the complete article here, as well. http://www.springerlink.com/content/pv373302mt827067/

A similar study was conducted in 1982 by Millns and Maibach of the Department of Dermatology at the University of California Medical School. The study yielded similar results. I was unable to access the list of references they used in their article, but I can almost guarantee that they built upon the work of Eberhardt.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/ut32254520970266/

For some long threads I started several years ago in which I discussed the scientific evidence against the "feedback theory" (the idea that washing sebum off the skin stimulates it to make more oil), here are the names of those threads, along with the direct links to them:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/myth-skin...ebu-t35818.html
"The myth of skin washing and sebum production"

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/evidence-...-th-t71047.html
"Still more evidence against the "feedback theory"

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/FINALLY-d...est-t81548.html
"FINALLY: a more direct test of the 'feedback theory' ".

I haven't read the study you cited above by Eberhardt, who claims (rather oddly) that sebum excretion is somehow regulated by "surface tension"; in fact, Kligman and Shelley (the two doctors who wrote the famous study in 1958 disproving the "feedback theory") did some experiments in their study which would appear to make such a weird idea seem implausible; they covered the skin of human volunteers with heavy artificial oil, and found that they still produced sebum at about the same rate; and they taped small glass cups to the foreheads of other volunteers for a considerable length of time (one month), and found that they still continued to excrete sebum at that location: "In each case a fatty, horny mass accumulated, having a queer verrucous appearance. Neither the sebaceous gland nor the epidermis showed any sign of shutting down." The obvious implication, of course, is that in areas of high sebum production, the stuff tends to flow away or be wiped away, even though it continues to be produced and excreted at about the same rate all the time.

And really, this makes a lot of sense when you think about the nature of facial sebum. If hormones were the only cause of oily skin, people with high levels of androgens or androgen receptors would have oil dripping off of their faces all the time.

Not necessarily. In a later study also done by Kligman, he found that giving a rather surprising amount of extra androgen every day to male human volunteers (up to 300 mg of methyl testosterone) had no effect at all on their sebum production; it had a variable effect on women. His explanation for that lack of effect in men was that even their normal levels of testosterone production were sufficient to "maximize" the stimulation of their sebaceous glands, and giving them extra androgens had no extra effect.

But that's not how it works. Even people who tend to have really oily skin reach a point during the day where their skin has reached its oiliest point. Now this is not to say that hormones don't play a role in excretion, but the point is that there's more to the mechanism.

I think there's more to it in the sense that other hormones besides just the sex hormones (androgens and estrogens) can also have some effect on sebaceous gland activity, but not these other weird issues of "surface tension" and washing. (Ambient temperature does appear to play a part in how quickly sebum is excreted, too.)

Edited by bryan, 16 March 2011 - 05:40 AM.

[Ella12]

Thank you for the info, Bryan -- i'll definitely look into feedback theory. This stuff is fascinating. I'm really hoping that an in-depth understanding of the physiology will help me to more efficiently correct my own skin issues. If you come across additional information, please let me know. Feel free to post in my log.