696 replies to this topic

[GregoryThor]

I once tried not washing my face at all after over five years of Benzoyl peroxide dutifully applied morning and night (As well as a shitload of other topicals and minocycline). I too was amazed at the results. My skin looked so much better. However slowly but surely my acne returned, and was actually worse than before this whole experiment (although mine was an experiment per say. I was just fed up). Now I am on accutane.

[jordan12]

I once tried not washing my face at all after over five years of Benzoyl peroxide dutifully applied morning and night (As well as a shitload of other topicals and minocycline). I too was amazed at the results. My skin looked so much better. However slowly but surely my acne returned, and was actually worse than before this whole experiment (although mine was an experiment per say. I was just fed up). Now I am on accutane.

There's definately something to this...I had basically the same experience. It's great at first...then it comes back and eventually is worse than before.

[retaly]

Natural oils like emu,olive oil (some ppl use this),tea tree oil can be expelled out of the pore by your skin and some of the nutrients absorbed into the blood,on the other hand moisturizer just stays there (im sure you noticed the difference washing off moisturizer 5-6 hours after application and washing 5-6 hours after applying any natural oils).

so in other words you say, we can use emu oil or any other natural oil instead of moisture and we'll cause less oil production?

[retaly]

Wow.
I've told you my results and you give me crap about how I'm lying.

No, I thought I explained to you before that I don't necessarily think that you're lying. What I suspect is that you're merely unable to understand and interpret the results you've gotten.

And please, how can anyone actually discuss anything with you? You think you're more knowledgable than everyone else. There will always be a "back-and-forth" arguement because you don't believe anything other than what you've read. Please tell me a "reasonable" experiment that you've read about that actually says sebum continues to produce whether you wash or not.

I've already done that, and you well know it. Here's the relevant passage from Kligman and Shelley's study describing the "cup experiment":

"The fact is that both keratin and sebum will pile up if steps are taken to prevent normal loss. We encountered a patient with a cardiac neurosis who scrupulously prevented for years any kind of contact with the skin over the region where he imagined the heart to be. A thick verrucous keratinized mass had accumulated which would have defied diagnosis without the benefit of a history. Another patient studiously avoided touching or washing the skin over the lateral malleolus in consequence of which horny excrescences developed (Fig. 3A). Finally, we arranged for 4 subjects to wear a glass cup on their foreheads for one month, taping the cup firmly down to prevent movement and plugging the neck with cotton. In each case a fatty, horny mass accumulated, having a queer verrucous appearance (Figure 3 B). Neither the sebaceous gland nor the epidermis showed any sign of shutting down."

From "MY" experiment, I can tell you that sebum does not continue to produce when skin is not washed. Would you like to discuss that? Tell me why my skin has practically no oil even though I haven't washed my face in about a week.

So how exactly are you TESTING whether or not there's oil on your skin? Are you just touching it here and there and it SEEMS like it has "practically no oil" on it? Do you understand that you have to be a lot more scientific than that, because of possible confounding issues??

For your information, I've been doing my own little experiment, and the results don't jive with what you're claiming. Sometime last week, I stopped washing my own face. I don't remember for sure now if it was on Thursday or Friday, but in any event, it's now been at least a week, just like with you! I've carefully avoided even letting water touch it, also just like you. Tonight was the test: I applied a Sebutape test-strip to my still-unwashed forehead a few hours ago in the recommended fashion, and got an imprint that showed a pretty good amount of oil, even though my forehead didn't feel noticeably oily. Comparing the test-strip with the chart that the company provides, it looks like my result comes in about half-way between the "Medium" and "High" sebum levels.

What I honestly suspect is that YOU have very significant levels of sebum on your face, too, just like I do; I think there are probably some reasonable explanations for why you only THINK that there's very little oil. One factor might be that if you've really been avoiding any kind of washing contact with your skin, there's probably been some significant keratinization of skin cells during that time which haven't fully desquamated yet. Those loose cells might be giving a sort of "rough" feel or texture to your skin which tends to counter the more "slippery" feel of oil on the surface. Furthermore, Kligman has clearly demonstrated that the presence of a water/oil emulsion on the surface of skin is a VERY important factor in the perception of "oiliness". If your skin is dryer now for whatever reason (I'm talking about a lack of water, not oil), that could be a confounding factor.

The bottom line to all this is that you'll have to test the level of oil on your skin more scientifically than you've done so far, if you expect me to believe your claims.

Bryan

ok so how can we reduce oil production?

[Charles Lee]

lol, ummm welcome to the first two years of my acne life, never washed my face, face was one huge cyst, just don't over wash, and over put products on and you'll be fine.

[just-a-normal-kid]

I'm currently useing retinoids (Green Cream lvl6.....www.greencream.com) and emu oil + neosporin for red marks.

I have minor minor acne that comes from bumps in my skin. Im trying to get rid of them w/ retinoids. If they don't clear up, I'm not going to wash my face AT ALL in the summer.

I don't get acne anywhere except chin+around my mouth, and am not scared to do it. I will go for 3 months without washing just in the belief that my face will normalize if I give it the chance.


needless to say, Im scared and hope it clears up so I don't have to go through that. But I'm prepared.

[tali54321]

I'm currently useing retinoids (Green Cream lvl6.....www.greencream.com) and emu oil + neosporin for red marks.

I have minor minor acne that comes from bumps in my skin. Im trying to get rid of them w/ retinoids. If they don't clear up, I'm not going to wash my face AT ALL in the summer.

I don't get acne anywhere except chin+around my mouth, and am not scared to do it. I will go for 3 months without washing just in the belief that my face will normalize if I give it the chance.


needless to say, Im scared and hope it clears up so I don't have to go through that. But I'm prepared.

o.k. so i just spent a lot of time reading this thread and there wasn't really a clear cut solution. So what ever happened to alex? he stopped writting and we'll never know if his conditioned totally improved or it was just a temp. thing. Anyway i just bought some azelaic acid for $50 so i have to try it first before i try doing nothing. my sisters don't do anythind but i can't say tat their face looks wonderful - it doesn't have alot of acne (less than mine and i'm the one using so much stuff) so maybe there is something to using just water. i dont know what to do anymore

[jordan12]

I'm currently useing retinoids (Green Cream lvl6.....www.greencream.com) and emu oil + neosporin for red marks.

I have minor minor acne that comes from bumps in my skin. Im trying to get rid of them w/ retinoids. If they don't clear up, I'm not going to wash my face AT ALL in the summer.

I don't get acne anywhere except chin+around my mouth, and am not scared to do it. I will go for 3 months without washing just in the belief that my face will normalize if I give it the chance.


needless to say, Im scared and hope it clears up so I don't have to go through that. But I'm prepared.

o.k. so i just spent a lot of time reading this thread and there wasn't really a clear cut solution. So what ever happened to alex? he stopped writting and we'll never know if his conditioned totally improved or it was just a temp. thing. Anyway i just bought some azelaic acid for $50 so i have to try it first before i try doing nothing. my sisters don't do anythind but i can't say tat their face looks wonderful - it doesn't have alot of acne (less than mine and i'm the one using so much stuff) so maybe there is something to using just water. i dont know what to do anymore

Nah, he's just banned from the forum for something that took place many months ago...he actually replied to a few of my PMs, and I'd imagine he would if you wanted to PM him...last I talked to him, he was completely clear now.

[Shaia]

So, I'm curious Bryan, what exactly are your credentials? I remember in one very old post that someone asked that, but you never replied, so I must wonder why that is? I will gladly share mine if you will yours.

I must say though that you are one haughty ***hole for throwing around your theories (which, you must admit are only theories. No research is ever wholly conclusive, thus is the nature of science). And, you know very little if you believe so completely in the little research that has been done on acne and skin. The fact that you seem to think that acne is not in any way connected with diet is erroneous as there have been numerous studies that have illustrated that the exact opposite is likely the case for many individuals. For instance,

from Family Practicioner 2005 Feb;22(1):62-70. "A systematic review of the evidence for 'myths and misconceptions' in acne management: diet, face-washing and sunlight."

Magin P, Pond D, Smith W, Watson A.


BACKGROUND: Lay perceptions that diet, hygiene and sunlight exposure are strongly associated with acne causation and exacerbation are common but at variance with the consensus of current dermatological opinion. OBJECTIVES: The objective of this study was to carry out a review of the literature to assess the evidence for diet, face-washing and sunlight exposure in acne management. METHODS: Original studies were identified by searches of the Medline, EMBASE, AMED (Allied and Complementary Medicine), CINAHL, Cochrane, and DARE databases. Methodological information was extracted from identified articles but, given the paucity of high quality studies found, no studies were excluded from the review on methodological grounds. RESULTS: Given the prevalence of lay perceptions, and the confidence of dermatological opinion in rebutting these perceptions as myths and misconceptions, surprisingly little evidence exists for the efficacy or lack of efficacy of dietary factors, face-washing and sunlight exposure in the management of acne. Much of the available evidence has methodological limitations. CONCLUSIONS: Based on the present state of evidence, clinicians cannot be didactic in their recommendations regarding diet, hygiene and face-washing, and sunlight to patients with acne. Advice should be individualized, and both clinician and patient cognizant of its limitations.


Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology, "High school dietary dairy intake and teenage acne."

BACKGROUND: Previous studies suggest possible associations between Western diet and acne. We examined data from the Nurses Health Study II to retrospectively evaluate whether intakes of dairy foods during high school were associated with physician-diagnosed severe teenage acne. METHODS: We studied 47,355 women who completed questionnaires on high school diet in 1998 and physician-diagnosed severe teenage acne in 1989. We estimated the prevalence ratios and 95% confidence intervals of acne history across categories of intakes. RESULTS: After accounting for age, age at menarche, body mass index, and energy intake, the multivariate prevalence ratio (95% confidence intervals; P value for test of trend) of acne, comparing extreme categories of intake, were: 1.22 (1.03, 1.44; .002) for total milk; 1.12 (1.00, 1.25; .56) for whole milk; 1.16 (1.01, 1.34; .25) for low-fat milk; and 1.44 (1.21, 1.72; .003) for skim milk. Instant breakfast drink, sherbet, cottage cheese, and cream cheese were also positively associated with acne. CONCLUSION: We found a positive association with acne for intake of total milk and skim milk. We hypothesize that the association with milk may be because of the presence of hormones and bioactive molecules in milk.

Acne, Milk and the Iodine Connection

Release Date
12/07/05
Lois Baker
University of Buffalo


BUFFALO, N.Y. -- Dermatologists seem to agree that something in milk and dairy products may be linked to teen-age acne.But is it hormones and "bioactive molecules," as a study in the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology suggested, or is there something else?

University at Buffalo dermatologist Harvey Arbesman, M.D., says there could be something else: Iodine.
Arbesman, a UB clinical assistant professor of dermatology and social and preventive medicine, details his reasoning in a letter published in the "Notes and Comments" section of the current (December) issue of the journal.

"It has been well-established since the 1960s that iodine intake can exacerbate acne," said Arbesman. "Nevertheless, various studies have shown there is still a significant level of iodine in milk in several countries, including the U.S., Britain, Denmark, Norway and Italy.
"Farmers give their cows iodine-fortified feed to prevent infection," he noted, "and they use sanitizing iodine solutions on their cows' udders and milking equipment. Consequently, there is lot of iodine in dairy products. For that reason, I've advised my acne patients for years to decrease their dairy intake."

Arbesman suggests the connection between acne and dairy products observed in the study could be secondary to the iodine content of the dairy products. "More importantly," he said, "the connection could be a combination of hormones and iodine."
It's important to bring the iodine connection to the fore to encourage the dairy industry to address the issue, Arbesman said. He suggested that future studies on the relationship of milk products and acne should consider the role iodine content may play.





There is a copious amount of research showing how wrong YOU are. Simply because it hasn't been tested in a double-blind, placebo controlled study doesn't make it wrong or worthless. Science doesn't know everything and neither do you. (Note: All my cited sources come from Pubmed, except the news release which is from http://www.buffalo.e....icle=76750009.)

[bryan]

So, I'm curious Bryan, what exactly are your credentials? I remember in one very old post that someone asked that, but you never replied, so I must wonder why that is? I will gladly share mine if you will yours.

In other words, "you show me yours, and I'll show you mine"?

Sorry, but I don't care all that much about either my credetials OR yours. I support my ideas with references to the medical/scientific literature.

I must say though that you are one haughty ***hole for throwing around your theories (which, you must admit are only theories.

What are those "theories" that I "throw around" that you're referring to?

No research is ever wholly conclusive, thus is the nature of science). And, you know very little if you believe so completely in the little research that has been done on acne and skin. The fact that you seem to think that acne is not in any way connected with diet is erroneous as there have been numerous studies that have illustrated that the exact opposite is likely the case for many individuals.

Actually, I'm not entirely convinced that acne is not in any way connected with diet, which you would know if you'd make an effort to read CAREFULLY what I say. A perfect example of that is the discussions I've had in the past over how sugar in the diet would (allegedly) cause "zits" the next day or two. It seems like everyone on this forum was accepting the standard explanation for that, which amounted to the simplistic notion that sugar --> insulin --> androgen --> sebum --> acne. However, I argued against that idea with references to past studies. I ended up by saying that IF sugar does indeed cause acne, it almost certainly does it by some other mechanism than what most people here were assuming at the time.

The bottom-line is this: pay attention to what I say, and don't try to put words in my mouth. I make every attempt to choose my words carefully. You should do the same. "The Devil is in the details", as the saying goes.

There is a copious amount of research showing how wrong YOU are.

Wrong about what? Acne and milk? Sure, I suppose that some people could be sensitive to milk, and drinking it contributes to their acne to some degree. So what? Some people are deathly allergic to peanuts. I fully acknowledge that people can have sensitivities to all kinds of foods, milk included.

BTW, I'll also mention here that I'm increasingly accepting the idea that some people have proposed here that it's not so much the milk per se which is the problem, but perhaps the way it's produced and processed commercially (all those extra hormones, antibiotics, iodine disinfectants, etc.). Again, pay attention to the details, my friend!

Bryan

[Jess]

"If you argue and rankle and contradict, you may achieve a victory sometimes-but it will be an empty victory because you will have lost your opponent's good will."

[HighScore]

I started a thread talking about how acne is psychologically related. http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php?showtopic=87679 One of my examples really strengthens your theory. My buddy who's in the military had active acne prior to deployment to Iraq. While in Iraq, he had no access to running water, he basically just splashed bottled water over his dirt covered face once a week. When he returned, his skin was perfect clear. He told me a lot of marines in his platoon also had become clear. These are guys in their 20s btw. Last time I talked to him, he told me one of his buddies prior to deployment was on proactiv and many other skin products but his skin tone was just horrible and was still breaking out. However just after 7 months of dirt and sweat in Iraq, he actually came home with clear healthy looking skin.

A little about myself. My skin in high school was perfect fucking crystal clear. I really didn't care about my looks, because I was so into studies. I have to admit I was pretty nasty that I took perhaps 2 showers per week. Then college comes and my mom told me to start using her expensive mosturizers saying that I should take better care of my looks. I started using these commercial products and took shower at least every day. I actually spent time washing my face, where as before I would only splash my face with water. Now morning showers have become kind of a routine in my life. I have to get up really early for classes and shower is the only thing that wakes me up. Next week, I'm going to start splashing my face with water like high school and see what turns out.

[jordan12]

I started a thread talking about how acne is psychologically related. http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php?showtopic=87679 One of my examples really strengthens your theory. My buddy who's in the military had active acne prior to deployment to Iraq. While in Iraq, he had no access to running water, he basically just splashed bottled water over his dirt covered face once a week. When he returned, his skin was perfect clear. He told me a lot of marines in his platoon also had become clear. These are guys in their 20s btw. Last time I talked to him, he told me one of his buddies prior to deployment was on proactiv and many other skin products but his skin tone was just horrible and was still breaking out. However just after 7 months of dirt and sweat in Iraq, he actually came home with clear healthy looking skin.

A little about myself. My skin in high school was perfect fucking crystal clear. I really didn't care about my looks, because I was so into studies. I have to admit I was pretty nasty that I took perhaps 2 showers per week. Then college comes and my mom told me to start using her expensive mosturizers saying that I should take better care of my looks. I started using these commercial products and took shower at least every day. I actually spent time washing my face, where as before I would only splash my face with water. Now morning showers have become kind of a routine in my life. I have to get up really early for classes and shower is the only thing that wakes me up. Next week, I'm going to start splashing my face with water like high school and see what turns out.

What will probably happen is your condition will improve at first (or at least you will think it has)...and then slowly but surely you'll revert in a bit of time. I do wish there was a way to capture the placebo effect for everyone to cure things like this...

[Ariventa]

FOr some people this will work, for others it won't. The way I knew this would work for me is by using my chest, shoulders, back as a measure. I never used anything on my body, so when this cleared by itself, I tried it on my face and it worked out pretty well.

ALthough, I still need to exfoliate regularly to keep my pores from clogging, but I don't need topicals anymore. Like any treatment, it will work for some and for others it won't. We are all too different.

[clubkid]

i read somewhere that sebum+sweat forms an "acid mantle" that protects the skin from certain doom.

Well, maybe this has something to do with Alex's theory---when we wash our face the skin is literally stripped of both, creating an imbalance.

What I don't know is whether Sebum is basic or acidid....sweat is acidic I believe, which is what led me to believe that intense exercise would eventually improve the condition of the skin---that AND it rushes blood to the cells, oxygen, regulates hormones, etc.

Hmm...what if Alex isn't crazy? The only remaining question is: what about the people that wash their faces twice a day and still have very nice skin. are they just the lucky ones? are we just screwed because we overexcabberated an acne condition that would have eventually cleared up?

Sebum and sweat come from different glands, I wonder if inactive peolpe produce more sebum to compensate, or if the harsh products summon more sebum because they are in the pores vs. their own tiny lil' spaces?

Questions Questions...we should all get together and write a book.

[smyth-E]

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php?showtopic=28639

[Drewbon5000]

This will be quite a long post, so please bear with me.

Bryan: The people on the forum don't need this constant naysaying over sebum (omg i said it please don't pick apart my post! )... I do agree with you a bit though.. that if this was a true scientific study we would need to be testing the sebum production rate and the viscosity of the sebum and countless other variables. However, this isn't really a scientific study, is it? Most of it is still pretty damn anecdotal.
One of the members besides alexalmighty to faithfully update on his progress was Jordan, and he didn't tell us anything about his lifestyle: he was stressed out about something, he didn't get much sleep, he followed a "college diet" and he ate a bunch of fruit snacks every day to get his vitamin C (btw what's wrong with eating an orange or a lemon from the college cafeteria... fruitsnacks are junkfood). Jordan I respect you for trying this experiment, but from what I could tell, you didn't have a lot of good things going for you while you were doing the experiment. Do you think that the experiment could have gone better if you had been able to drink more water, get more sleep, meditate for stress reduction etc... Did you exercise at all like amazingalex said he did? I am a firm believer in the health restoring power of exercise, especially weight-training.
Brian, I've got one more thing to say to you: maybe the sebum production will go up while on this experiment, but perhaps the oil becomes less viscous and evaporates/absorbs back into the skin more readily. I'm only speculating because I haven't done as much scientific sebum research as you have... so i don't know for sure... but i'm sure you'll have an answer because you're more scientifically hardcore than us non-enlightened lay-person folk.


One last thing. Awhile back I became interested in bodyweight exercises and stumbled onto the "DYNAMIC TENSION SYSTEM". It gives a detailed program of bodyweight exercises and deep breathing techniques. It also gives a diet plan and *surprise* A BATHING PROGRAM!! I know you're probably thinking "Hmm, thats a bit weird to tell people how to bath in an exercise manual." Well, at first I thought so too, but then I found that the author had great skin.. and he followed the bathing routine layed out in the book. Guess what.. it was basically a modified do nothing routine! All he did was vigourously exercise in the morning and then wiped himself down with a cold sponge. Then he said "After using the sponge, rub your entire body with your wet hands, rub off the water with the sponge, and rub the body practically dry with the bare hands and snap into it as quickly as you can, so that your body is all covered with a pink glow. Then he went on to say that he took a warm soap and water bath twice weekly. Thats it.

I dunno if that post made any difference to anyone, but I think I'm going to try the do nothing experiment.
you can check out my pics on my profile. right now I'm on proactive, but it seems to lose its effectiveness after a couple months so i have to cycle it..

[bryan]

Bryan: The people on the forum don't need this constant naysaying over sebum...

Why do you consider it to be "naysaying"? My intention is to give everyone the FACTS of sebum production. And the scientific research supports what I've said.

I do agree with you a bit though.. that if this was a true scientific study we would need to be testing the sebum production rate and the viscosity of the sebum and countless other variables. However, this isn't really a scientific study, is it? Most of it is still pretty damn anecdotal.

Of course it was scientific. I've posted the full citation for Kligman's study a bunch of times. It appeared in the prestigious Journal of Investigative Dermatology. An additional study on shampooing and sebum production in the scalp appeared in the book Hair Research for the Next Millenium. You can also read LabGirl's account of the scientific testing done by her company, using Sebutape and Sebumeters. You can also see the thread right here in this forum in which I did my OWN testing using Sebutape. You can see the scans I made of my Sebutape impressions, before and after a period of intense skin washing!

Brian, I've got one more thing to say to you: maybe the sebum production will go up while on this experiment, but perhaps the oil becomes less viscous and evaporates/absorbs back into the skin more readily.

What experiment are you talking about, and why would sebum production go up during it? If you're talking about Alex's experiment, I've made it clear that the scientific evidence shows that sebum production isn't affected one way or the other by washing.

Bryan

[Drewbon5000]

Ok, I understand now. Sebum production wouldn't go up during the "do nothing" experiment. What i meant to say was, maybe the sebum produced on the face becomes less viscous overtime if it isn't being washed away on a daily basis.. and being less viscous it doesn't clog pores as easily.

[bryan]

I think washing the skin is probably "acne-neutral": in general, it neither hurts nor helps acne.

Bryan