44 replies to this topic

[Rebel1992]

Firstly, if your suffering from dry skin-acne, this thread is likely of no use to you. any feedback, opinions and disscussions are welcome.
First and foremost, like the title says, the correlation between acuutane and b5 is the miraculous decease in sebum resulting in an initial breakout thus eventually leading to clear skin.
However on acccutane,though i believe the side effects canbe abnormal,one can accomadate to ones life in exchange for clear skin- however accutane's effects do not last
On b5, you get the same effect, with supposedly milder side effects, hair loss being the most common. However continuous supplementation and internal damage similar to accutanemay be experienced.

Now for the exiciting part - i een on boards, thread, forums for hours and hours...and have come across many opinions and comparisons.
the thing i would firstly like to address is 1) why do fat people who lead such unhealthy lifestyle choices have no acne? but people whom lead healthier lifestyles but never seem to put on weight(thin people)... have serious acne. note: the thin people group also refers to people whom are able to put on wieght but not as rapidly as the quantity of food they eat.

Ok-refering to the b5 theory, in short-supplementation of COA promotes fat metobolism and thus prevents fat from being absorbed by skin cells releasing in sebum.
accutane- superior amounts of vitamin A leads to shrinking of pores thus not allowing sebum to pass through.

At this pt, you might feel that i am wasting yr time with facts and that there is no correlation of both of em that might benefit yr acne.

here's my observation- those whom you believe have perfect skin etc.... have moist healthy skin .. not a single enlarged pore etc.... could it be possible that we acne sufferers suffer from fat malabsorption-we are unable to process fats which is why we do not put on weight. we have enlarged pores because the normal amount a healthy individual need - we cannot absorb...thus we tke tons and tons(accutane) to achieve something like that... as the word itself malabsorption says.... we are unable to metabolize fats that heavy supplementation of b5 gives....thus wehave acne...

could this be it.
a solution based on fat metabolism should belooked into?.. some might argue that its not fats but carbohydrates that when stopped consuming, cleared my acne...for one...no it did not clear yr acne....because you likely have the mildest acne of em all...and even when you disagree ...i suggest you take a lookat others whom suffered worse and make sure you dont flinch.....my believe is that when you stopped consuming carbohydrates...yr body uses fat now for energy thus better metabolism of fats.

And fellow acne sufferers if you have spend years on this board and notice a flaw in my theory in any way....i sincerely wish for you to pointit out...i am sick of acne and am trying my best.
cheers

rebel

[Rebel1992]

still no opinions...

[hackattack]

100% AGREED

[BeadyB]

Interesting. Do you have any ideas on how to improve fat absorption if this is the case?

[Rebel1992]

Interesting. Do you have any ideas on how to improve fat absorption if this is the case?

hey,
ok this is gonna be my second informative post regarding - from your question.
ok first, the solution i believe should be taken through a whole different path,- no dont worry, not fasting again.
First and foremost, hormones are without a doubt the main cause of acne...regardless of what you think. it affects everything and anything in the human body. For me well, we cannot prevent hormones that circulate out from the formation and maturisation of our sexual organs, desire etc... the only other "MAJOR" cause in terms of fluctuating hormones are likely our impaired digestive system or a gene related disease.
-in terms of gene related diseases, lets look at cystic fibrosis as one-inshort is a disease where thick mucus membranes clog lungs and affect digestive system...
youcan only do so much...you can either push the barriers by overworking your body to overpower the disease or die from it. so we are likely unable to affect any major change in terms of disease.
DIGESTIVE SYSTEM- so that leaves us with one culprit- i have seen so many people on acne.org blaming digestive disorders for their acne. and no one seems to get it under control. they all analyse the human as food that travels to the stomach brokenen down by HCL and travel through the small intestine where fat etc gets broken down and large intestine and then anus.
But we fail to realise that the liver is part of the digestive system- though it doesnt digest food etc...it absorbs nutrients and produce bile which is an important mechanism of producing its fair share of digestive enzymes.
so my solution is - since our digestive system is likely to be malfunctioning, maybe we shoul give it a kick start...allowing one's self to take bile salts and digestive enzymes to breakdown food and prevent malabsorbtion.
But pls NOTE: my theory could be ineffective and maybe even useless...because most people believe that the enzymes are likely to be killed off when diluted with the stomach's HCL and even bile salts-which is meant to be produced for once the food is broken down in HCL- when take with food it is likely to be broken down by HCL rendering it ineffective.
Thus instead of drowning the numerous acne sufferers with countless, unworthy hopes of a solution... i have decided to take an experiment at my expense...
i am conducting an experiment on myself with several supplements including the ones i mentioned above.
i will be conducting this experiment with all details and info on here...it will likely be posted on the 23rd of december 2010...which is when my supplements would have arrived a day after and i can post the experience of day 1.
so i would like people following this tread to share views etc ...and follow this thread...
till 12/23/10....

rebel

[Skiz]

FWIW, I pretty much agree with you. Keep us updated.

[Rebel1992]

Interesting. Do you have any ideas on how to improve fat absorption if this is the case?

i apollogise for beating arnd the bush....in my 2nd post...
but in summary- digestive enzymes and bile act to break down fat and allows the absorption of fat.

rebel

[Rebel1992]

firstly, i would like to APOLOGISE, AS MY SUPPLEMENTS THAT I ORDERED ARE ON HOLD-DO NOTKNOW WHEN I WILL GET THEM, AND AM VERY DEPRESSED BECAUSE OF IT.
FOR WHOEVER IS FOLLOWING THE THREAD, I SINCERELY APOLOGISE FOR THE DELAY...AND HOPEFULLY THE ****888 AT CUSTOMS, WOULD STOPPED HOLDING MY PARCEL AND SEND IT ALREADY!

rebel

[Rebel1992]

Hey guys, well here's my fist update..

DAY 1
supplements that I m taking
-bile salts
-ox bile
-pancreatin
-pantesin pantethine

ok so far I ve had two meals, the first one, I had rice, fish and tons of veggies...+ fruits and when I took these, I felt ok..
My second meal- scrammbled eggs, I felt like shit after taking them... I was full, I could feel a general negative feeling in my body... I immediately searched the net for any interactions and if it was normal, and I found out that with the digestive enzymes an the bile combinations... You will feel a general unwell feeling because it kills the bacteria parasites etc... Well hopefully this is true....

N as far as oilyness goes... There isn't a significant difference that I can claim for..,
and also I don't enjoy counting the no. Of pustles - so. Am not gonna observe that...

Till my next post

[Jbovell :3]

I LOVE IT LOL
but what about the fat people with pimples.. i dont know if i fully agree with you but im on my way to believing lol

[Rebel1992]

I LOVE IT LOL
but what about the fat people with pimples.. i dont know if i fully agree with you but im on my way to believing lol

good question...i ve thought bt this before and found this the hardest part to convince...often when i look at this,i can only come to one conclusion being that their acne is solely overworking their digestive system...they do not need more than half the food they eat-not to mention that it is likely to be very high in fat and we can only digest so much fat...our body produces a certain amount of bile and is not simlar to our immune system where for example...if you have less infections,it works less....but if you have so much more infection etc...it ll work harder.....so in tht sense the bile only being produced so much....

and if you have read the b5 and accutanecorrelation...fat rather when not digested is transported towards the blood stream...and since blood goes to the brain the most( i think ),it is likely their undigeste fats causes them their acne...

however-the theory doesntsupport ones with dry skin acne....so this theory is kinda of a long shot...but has some substance nd potential..

[koreanboy8]

i'm not trying to be a dampener on the theory.. but i'll present what i think..

i think dr lit heung's theory of why b5 worked in the first place is wrong..
sebum is made by a biotin dependand enzyme called acetyl coa carboxylase.. b5 and accutane both inhibit/antagonise biotin(accutane inhibits biotinidase which makes any biotin you get unabsorbable while b5 just antagonises biotin..)
people who take biotin while taken b5 all report b5 didn't work for them.. on accutane it doesn't matter for them cause biotinidase is being blocked so they wont absorb any or much of the biotin they take..

if this theory is correct(it's scientific knowledge that sebum is made by acetyl coa carboxylase.. so i'm not sure why this wasn't presented as a theory after the b5 study as it's also known b5 will block biotin)

anyway.. a theory may be that people with oily skin have bacteria(yeast?) in their bodies that produce more biotin than b5.. or their diet gets them more biotin or a combination.. anyway, unbalanced so they produce excess oil.. lowering biotin actually also helps with blood lipid profile and cancers as well.. i think the problem with accutane is that it completely gets rid of biotin.. i think it just needs to be less in certain individuals.. cause they may be producing or intaking more than their share of other b vitamins..

[Rebel1992]

i'm not trying to be a dampener on the theory.. but i'll present what i think..

i think dr lit heung's theory of why b5 worked in the first place is wrong..
sebum is made by a biotin dependand enzyme called acetyl coa carboxylase.. b5 and accutane both inhibit/antagonise biotin(accutane inhibits biotinidase which makes any biotin you get unabsorbable while b5 just antagonises biotin..)
people who take biotin while taken b5 all report b5 didn't work for them.. on accutane it doesn't matter for them cause biotinidase is being blocked so they wont absorb any or much of the biotin they take..

if this theory is correct(it's scientific knowledge that sebum is made by acetyl coa carboxylase.. so i'm not sure why this wasn't presented as a theory after the b5 study as it's also known b5 will block biotin)

anyway.. a theory may be that people with oily skin have bacteria(yeast?) in their bodies that produce more biotin than b5.. or their diet gets them more biotin or a combination.. anyway, unbalanced so they produce excess oil.. lowering biotin actually also helps with blood lipid profile and cancers as well.. i think the problem with accutane is that it completely gets rid of biotin.. i think it just needs to be less in certain individuals.. cause they may be producing or intaking more than their share of other b vitamins..

hey man, i just wanted to tell yu, my theory theoratically may make sense but i realised it is wrong...i tried taking bile salts and felt like****.... anyway i have contemplated on yr theory before ..... but never really saw a way to achieve that.... the thing is, many people who claim to inhibit biotin, experienced hairloss, but there was this guy on a hairloss forum ...he mentioned for that 56 months on accutane....his hair loss stopped and grew.... after that it went back to the same old way.... for one, i have an oily sclap and face ...thus blemishes and a bit of hairloss........ the thing is in the biotin theory...there are many contradictions... look at people withoily skin but no acne...yes, their skin cells dont shed at such a rate... but you get my point... and the thing is...have you tried this theroy out...has it worked.....( pls note: i am a strong believer that if your oily skin goes...yr acne heals by itself) ...so i would really like to hear if yr theory has inhibited yr sebum.....not the no. of breakouts that has been reduced.....

but either way...i am a curious learner... and have found the most common method to do this is by taking raw egg whites ( which can be very dangerous regarding the fact that your playing with salmonella)... i havent heard of other methods though..... and i d certainly like to know yr knowledge on this particular topic.... i know its a bit tedious to type..but i hope you can help me out.... will await yr reply....

rebel.......

[koreanboy8]

nice.. well i think most cases of acne are cured by removing enough sebum, but i think there are some cases where acne isn't caused by the same mechanism or bacteria or something different..(i havn't seen them but have heard them mentioned..) in those cases i don't think b5 or any oil reducing system would work. my focus is on oil reduction because i have a lot of oil, again i agree it wont work for people who don't have oil and already have problems.. there is something different going on there..

i don't consider people with oily skin but no acne to be a contradiction of the biotin theory, just that there is something else going on plus the oil. people with acne, their skin is reacting to the bacteria, where other peoples aren't. if you take out the oil and have no possibility for that bacteria to live, it stops the acne before it gets a chance. i think some of it is genetic and some of it diet, but if we stop the oil we can fix most cases of acne. ie if one has oily skin plus acne i think reducing the sebum will work.

i have acne on my back, which is oily.. i have only pimples now and then on my face but i have seb derm.. which without oil can't be possible (sebhorrea = producing too much oil). so my focus is oil reduction and i think oil reduction will fix most acne to, except for in those cases mentioned.

i'm glad to try and help any way i can. raw egg whites should be safe as long as the outside of the shell is clean. from my research the actual egg inside is sterile, you just have to be careful with the shell.. but i can't even swallow the egg whites.. they make me gag.. it might be something i'll try if i can ever swallow them..

b5 has reduced oil for me definately.. but it's so hard to get pills, at least here in australia.. and 1 bottle runs out in 2 days.. not good.. plus i happened to get the stomach upsets other people were talking about.. painful ones.. so i'm backing off.. but it definately stops the sebum and shrinks the pores.. ie no more black dots around my nose.. i'm trying to find out about acetyl coa carboxylase inhibition which seems to have had trials run on animals.

i have a lot of confidence in the inhibition of biotin and/or it's dependent enzyme acetyl coa carboxylase.. to reduce sebum but as you mentioned.. the practicality of it is it's downfall.. it's so hard to find anything efficient.. besides accutane.. which still needs a prescription plus monthly blood profiling..

i wish someone would make an avidin pill.. which would be easily done.. avidin is available, but it's not food grade and we'd have no way of knowing how much to take.. there'd need to be trials.. cause we don't wanna stop biotin completely.. i suspect.. i think we just wanna reduce how much we have.. i think the problem with people taking accutane.. the reason they get worse side effects than on b5 is it's completely getting rid of biotin.. whereas b5 and avidin could be measured to reduce only certain amounts depending on how much we were taking.

sorry to blab on.. if you have any more specific questions i'll try to answer..

[koreanboy8]

oh~ by the way.. do you happen to know if the guy on accutane for 56 months with no hairloss.. if he was taking low dose accutane? maybe that would still leave enough biotin available to not have the same side effects.. i'm not 100% sure how biotinidase is blocked by accutane but maybe on low dose it leaves some available to be able to use biotin.. if he wasn't on low dose accutane.. i'm not sure about the hair loss.. all i know.. i've had oily skin since high school.. and i've got male pattern baldness.. i'm 26.. and biotin never helped my hair to grow.. just keep losing.. i just shave my head now.. cause i'm pretty sure i'll be bald by 30.. there's lots of different theories for hair loss.. i've seen one guy on the news saying sebum is causing the hair loss by plugging the holes.. he'd do thorough cleanings and the people said they were getting results.. so i don't know.. maybe stopping the sebum is what i needed to make my hair stop losing.. i'm not even worried about my hair anymore.. all i want is clear skin.. oil is back after stopping b5 and i'm sure my bacne and seb derm are gonna be back..

[wibble]

i'm not trying to be a dampener on the theory.. but i'll present what i think..

i think dr lit heung's theory of why b5 worked in the first place is wrong..
sebum is made by a biotin dependand enzyme called acetyl coa carboxylase.. b5 and accutane both inhibit/antagonise biotin(accutane inhibits biotinidase which makes any biotin you get unabsorbable while b5 just antagonises biotin..)
people who take biotin while taken b5 all report b5 didn't work for them.. on accutane it doesn't matter for them cause biotinidase is being blocked so they wont absorb any or much of the biotin they take..

if this theory is correct(it's scientific knowledge that sebum is made by acetyl coa carboxylase.. so i'm not sure why this wasn't presented as a theory after the b5 study as it's also known b5 will block biotin)

anyway.. a theory may be that people with oily skin have bacteria(yeast?) in their bodies that produce more biotin than b5.. or their diet gets them more biotin or a combination.. anyway, unbalanced so they produce excess oil.. lowering biotin actually also helps with blood lipid profile and cancers as well.. i think the problem with accutane is that it completely gets rid of biotin.. i think it just needs to be less in certain individuals.. cause they may be producing or intaking more than their share of other b vitamins..

I wonder if the Heungs theory isn't wrong, but maybe its two sides of the same coin as your theory. I've thought along the same lines for some time, and it feels right with me, but also so does Heungs theory.

I'm fairly sure I'm currently naturally oily if it wasn't for Vit A. I also know that in the past B5 stopped sebum (for me). I also know Biotin compromised it (for me). I also think I have a yeast overgrowth (I have a white tongue for as long as I can remember I had acne, but could just be a correlation of eating crap or something in early days). So it all fits for me.

I've tried egg whites, and it didn't work, but I think its just quantity needed is so large. I had about 4 a day, and I think it needs 16 or something crazy. Like the B5, I think this route is impractical long term. I do think B5 can be a life saver though for a short term fix.

As I'm fairly ok managing sebum atm, I don't want to mess just yet. But, my next test would be trying smaller dose B5 and Vit A together, hoping that taking both would mean not such large quanties of B5 are needed.

[koreanboy8]

you may be correct wibble.. it's good you have your sebum under control.. that's all i want.. is a relatively practical way to keep sebum under control..

[Rebel1992]

you may be correct wibble.. it's good you have your sebum under control.. that's all i want.. is a relatively practical way to keep sebum under control..

hey man, i sincerely thank you for sharing yr knowledge with me..i kow its a hassle...but thanks anyway....
i would also like to share my thoughts with you...
firstly you mentioned that you ve had male pattern hairloss...? may i know if yr scalp is oily...cause i do too.....and i am only 18...... i read somewhere that hairloss is 99% of the time caused by oily scalp...and i am 100% sure that is true...it clogs the follicle etc... people who have had dry hair hair loss can be fixed by moisturizing the scalp say through oil .... i wish you luck in that battle...

can you tell me sources of avidin? other than egg whites...you were talkiing abt them being in other sources but not supplements!?.... because after yr convincing reply...i think it may be very true that biotin causes acne...people who took biotin and initially did not have acne started having acne....
ALSO my most important QUESTION TO YOU- i was unable to clarify myself on this topic..... you mentioned earlier that instestinal bacteria produces biotin....like other websites..... but i dont seem to understand whether the bad flora or the good flora produces it..... and also say we inhibit biotin...what happens to the bacteria??? i cant seem to figure it out....
someone else once mentioned tht the good flora produces biotin...and maybe we should take biotin for a lenghty period and then maybe we may get rid of acne despite initial breakouts....as i havent aquired adequate info on this topic... i am unable to gain a proper theory if thts true...

i hope you can reply to this..... really appreciate it...

rebel

[Rebel1992]

i'm not trying to be a dampener on the theory.. but i'll present what i think..

i think dr lit heung's theory of why b5 worked in the first place is wrong..
sebum is made by a biotin dependand enzyme called acetyl coa carboxylase.. b5 and accutane both inhibit/antagonise biotin(accutane inhibits biotinidase which makes any biotin you get unabsorbable while b5 just antagonises biotin..)
people who take biotin while taken b5 all report b5 didn't work for them.. on accutane it doesn't matter for them cause biotinidase is being blocked so they wont absorb any or much of the biotin they take..

if this theory is correct(it's scientific knowledge that sebum is made by acetyl coa carboxylase.. so i'm not sure why this wasn't presented as a theory after the b5 study as it's also known b5 will block biotin)

anyway.. a theory may be that people with oily skin have bacteria(yeast?) in their bodies that produce more biotin than b5.. or their diet gets them more biotin or a combination.. anyway, unbalanced so they produce excess oil.. lowering biotin actually also helps with blood lipid profile and cancers as well.. i think the problem with accutane is that it completely gets rid of biotin.. i think it just needs to be less in certain individuals.. cause they may be producing or intaking more than their share of other b vitamins..

I wonder if the Heungs theory isn't wrong, but maybe its two sides of the same coin as your theory. I've thought along the same lines for some time, and it feels right with me, but also so does Heungs theory.

I'm fairly sure I'm currently naturally oily if it wasn't for Vit A. I also know that in the past B5 stopped sebum (for me). I also know Biotin compromised it (for me). I also think I have a yeast overgrowth (I have a white tongue for as long as I can remember I had acne, but could just be a correlation of eating crap or something in early days). So it all fits for me.

I've tried egg whites, and it didn't work, but I think its just quantity needed is so large. I had about 4 a day, and I think it needs 16 or something crazy. Like the B5, I think this route is impractical long term. I do think B5 can be a life saver though for a short term fix.

As I'm fairly ok managing sebum atm, I don't want to mess just yet. But, my next test would be trying smaller dose B5 and Vit A together, hoping that taking both would mean not such large quanties of B5 are needed.

hey wibble...you mentioned vitamin a helped decreae your sebum prodcution...but the most commoon source i ve seen for vitamin a is fish/cot liver oil.... and have heard that some of this oil are just not reliable because there is nothing controlled and there possibility that it may be contaminated... may i know what form of vitamin a your taking.....??? thanks
rebel

[koreanboy8]

first.. i definately have an oily head.. my face and head are very oily.. i have heard of doctors prescribing low dose accutane for baldness and having it work.. i have only read it on hairloss forums so i guess it's hearsay.. but it fits the theory.. and even if the oil isn't the only part of the equation.. ie genes are in on it as well.. stopping the oil may be enough to stop the baldness.. the way it is enough in most cases enough to stop acne..(oily skinned acne)

hmm.. sorry if i gave the impression of knowing sources of avidin in other foods besides eggwhites.. my english is a bit strange sometimes.. but at the moment i don't know of any other food sources.. i know there is a bacteria which produces streptavidin.. which binds to biotin just as strongly as avidin.. and may bind even more strong.. if i remember correctly.. but i don't know if the bacteria is safe to ingest.. or how to even get some of it..

as for biotin and intestinal bacteria.. it's hard to find good sources for info on this.. scientifically it hasn't been proven that we can use the biotin produced from bacteria in our intestines.. but assuming we can.. i'd guess good and/or bad bacteria could produce biotin (bad meaning it would produce other things that were toxic) i don't think biotin is bad.. just that we may have it out of balance.. i'm actually thinking yeast may be making biotin in our bodies.. and i've heard of people taking large amounts of brewers yeast fixing skin problems.. (brewers yeast is live yeast).. i havn't tried this..

if we inhibit biotin.. i'm not sure if anything happens to the bacteria.. i just imagined the bacteria would stay the same but we stop the biotin it is making from being absorbed.. if the bacteria theory is correct..
i did read someone who came up with a theory that taking large amounts of b5 would stop your body from making it.. where i guess he meant the bacteria.. if that is correct(i'm not very confident of it) taking large amounts of biotin might work in the same way..


i just found all these things stop acetyl coa carboxylase.. the thing that makes sebum(biotin dependant enzyme).. now i've gotta try to find if any of them are easily available and safe for ingestion..

[(3R)-1-[1-(anthracene-9-carbonyl)piperidin-4-yl]piperidin-3-yl]-morpholi- n-4-ylmethanone (also called ®-anthracen-9-yl(3-(piperidine-1-carbonyl)-1,4'-bipiperidin-1'-yl)metha- none herein) (CP 640186); CP-610432 (S-1'-(anthracene-9-carbonyl)-N,N-diethyl-1,4'-bipiperidine-3-carboxamide- ); CP-610431 (R-1'-(anthracene-9-carbonyl)-N,N-diethyl-1,4'-bipiperidine-3-carboxamide- ); CP-497485 (1'-(anthracene-9-carbonyl)-N,N-diethyl-1,4'-bipiperidine-3-carboxamide); phenylmethyl 5-(1-{[(2-{[N-(2,4-dihydroxy-3,3-dimethylbutanyl)-5-(6-aminooctahydro-9H-- purin-9-yl)-4-(hydroxyl-2-[(phosphonooxy)tetrahydrofuran-2-yl]methyl dihydrogen diphosphate-β-alanyl]amino}ethyl)thio]acetyl}-2-oxohexahydro-1H-thie- no[3,4-d]imidazol-4-yl)pentanoate; 5-(tetradecyloxy)-2-furan-carboxylic acid (TOFA; 3,3-dimethylhexanoate, monoglyceride (AC-0417-9); MEDICA 16 (β,β,β',β'-tetramethylhexadecanoic acid); ESP-55016 (8-hydroxy-2,2, 14,14-tetra-methylpentadecanediotic acid); S2E ((+)-p-[1-p-tert-butylphenyl)-2-oxo-4-pyrrolidinyl]methoxybenzoic acid), and

1S,2S,3E,5R,6S,11S,14S,15R,16R,17S,18S)-15,17-dihydroxy-5,6,16-trimethoxy-- 2,14,18-trimethyl-11-phenyl-12,19-dioxabicyclo[13.3.1]nonadec-3-en-13-one (Soraphen A); 1'-N-Chloroacetamido-biotin, benzyl ester (CABI).