255 replies to this topic

[bug]

hey all,
Please give me your advise/opinions....

I am very interested in the idea of the needling techniques, because results ive seen. Plus im afraid of lasers.
I have V. bad scarring, some rolling, some ice picks, some burn scars. my cheeks are a mess, so ANY improvement would be good.
Most of my skin damage was done via bad laser resurfacing where i was badly burned, about 10 yrs ago. Since then ive had isolagen subscions, (some improvement) and many peels.
My acne is settled, now its my scars im haunted by, im dedicated to improvement.
Like everyone, all i want is smooth skin.smoother..anyway.

So ive been to a clinic, and seen a doctor, here in australia, and she reccomended a series of needling treatments in her clinic, with the medical grade roller, that causes more damage, and needs about a weeks recovery, and a roller i have to buy from her and use at home....
Its actually all very expensive.

Now im seeing alot of people on this forum are rolling themselves, i wonder if the salon treatments are worth it??

Also, I have seen the doctor who invented the clearskin roller, and hers seems a good one to buy for home use.
The one that lasts 12 months.

Has anyone seen real results from needling? either professionally or at home??

i know before & after photos are BS. Ive been in a magazine and on tv showing my face trying to fix scars. im well over it all. But not ready to give up.

hi adell.
i used the .75 home roller on and off for a few months. i've noticed some improvement (read my post above). but when they say it lasts for a year, that's a bunch of bullcrap. i'd say maybe 2-4 months, then you need a new one. especially if you go over bony parts (jaw, forehead, etc). check out my topic i posted about my roller. if left linez all over my face after a while (i put pics in there too).
my advice would be to YES go to a professional when they do the 1.5mm roller. because, you can do it at home. but it kinda hurts. so, you'll probably not roll as hard as you should. on the other hand, if you have a pro do it, they'll make sure the roller goes down all the way. after they do it, i think you wait 2 weeks, and then do a home rolling daily, with the .75mm needlez. and those .75 rollers, those don't hurt at all. just kinda tingle.
oh ya, don't worry about it ruining your face (like the co2 burned you). since it's just needlez poking you, the little holes close back up pretty quickly. you're just red for a few days. but really, there's no threat of permanent damage. (i think it affects the dermis, the deep layer, where your scarz reside. and pretty much doesn't bother the epidermis, which is the outside skin layer, the layer we see).

[derma_roller]

http://links.picture...p5Fd3Ig=&size=l

You can easily see the difference from the Novaderm roller (left) with a scant 46-96 needles textile needles and the genuine Dermaroller (right), owner of the World wide patent. The genuine Dermaroller is the ONLY roller that is patented. It has surgical stainless steel medical grade needles and nearly 200 needles.

Counterfeit, black market rollers are all knock offs of the genuine Dermaroller. You will never find a 'knock off Prada purse' equal in quality compared to the 'official Prada purse.' It's easy to MAKE a FAKE even the packaging is fake copy. The HIGH priced Environ Roll-CIT is also a fake. Environ charges $500 for the home roller which makes you think if you pay A LOT the quality must be good. NOT TRUE! The Environ Roll-CIT only has 76 dull textile needles. A metal examiner checked all the copied rollers on the maket and found most were not sterilized, textile needles were used that were soft and bent easily forming a hook. When the needle tip bends the hook can cause the skin to become macerated which means the hook on the needle tears the skin.

Otherwise, it is easy to see that the knock off counterfeit roller from Novaderm has a range of 46 to 96 needles depending on the model purchased. The 1.5 needles need not only a sterile table set-up but also nerve blocks to block the pain. The Novaderm is not a good buy. They may tell you the roller last 12 months and the Environ tells you 3 years. Again, NOT TRUE. The same as your personal razor -- anything sharp becomes dull with use. Our studies show with daily use you can expect to replace your home care roller after 120 uses. Again, if you use it over a LARGE area, e.g., face, neck, hands, Décolleté, thighs, abdomen, etc. it will dull quickly.

Of course prices vary as much as the economy varies and the currency varies depending on the strength of the dollar. Euro ration is for every $1,000 USD we pay nearly $600 more or $1,600. Overall, we just wanted to point out that a roller is not a roller - HUGE differences.

If you purchase a 1.5 mm needle Dermaroller over the Internet or e-bay and no one checks your credentials then the company is NOT ethical. Any more than if you would buy a scalpel and try to perform your own surgery. Look around a CIT procedure is not as expensive as you think. Some of the black market roller prices (> $400) are the same charge as what a medical official will charge and they perform a sterile pain free procedure.

The Black market from Thailand copied our outside tubes so I'm sure Dr. Leaf & Rusher is a copied packaging from Thailand. Dr. Leaf purchased our Dermarollers for years and stopped about 4 months ago. All his web sites say there are NO rollers in-stock. It's curious, where did the Leaf Dermarollers came from??? Thailand??

PROCEDURE:
When the CIT is done correctly you will have 300 needle sticks per 1 sq cm. Or over 100,000 needle sticks per facial. This is the primary reason why the instrument is used ONCE. The instrument becomes blunted when used repeatedly.

When you're paying a physician for a CIT you want the most for your money NOT a dull instrument that you have to press really hard and have to insert more pressure. Additionally, it is not sterile after the first use. There is blood, tissue, body fluids and DNA that is wedged tightly near the base of the needle that can not be removed by rinsing it off or soaking. Watching CSI and you know blood can not be rinsed off. The BIGGER problem is the blunted tip and getting your money's worth with a new instrument.

SEE PHOTO's:

http://links.picture...p5Fd3Ig=&size=l

http://links.picture...p5Fd3Ig=&size=l

http://links.picture...p5Fd3Ig=&size=l

(Sorry - it looks like photos are not going to link to this message.)

The CIT (collagen induction therapy) will give you a large surge of collagen and the daily C-8 home roller will give you a transdermal delivery but also the body thinks there is a minor injury it needs to repair. You will also get small increments of NEW collagen. You will exceed your expectations when you use the home care daily Dermaroller C-8 after your CIT medical procedure. Wait 7 days after your CIT then start the home care roller.


NEW C-8 home care roller has been re-designed:

http://links.picture...p5Fd3Ig=&size=m

Thank you for listening/reading.

Regards,
Marcia Renner, USA

[derma_roller]

I underwent the first roll cit procedure June 2006, full face, i.e from forehead to chin and ear to ear costing $2000 Aus. I wont go into detail as this post is already long winded. I was put under local anthesia, eyelids taped down and away he went. It took about and hour in all. During recovery i had to apply an enriched vitamin A, C (and other stuff) oil which is the most important factor in reducing the scarring. My face was quite swollen and it was had to eat, see and sleep. From what i can remember recovery was about 18 days or so.

After that first treatment i decided to go back for a second. Id say the first had reduced the scarring at least 50% and i was happy about it, but we all know how we internally exagerate the smallest imperfections. So the second was just done on the cheeks and temple 6 months later costing $1500 and since then id say the scarring reduced down a further 40%.

Alrighty, ill shutup now. Im more than happy to answer anyones questions,

Cheers,
Steve

Dear Steve,

If you ever need another treatment, try the genuine Dermaroller, owner of the World wide patent. Your recovery will only be 12-24 hours. Erythema only which means red or pinkish color. The Roll-CIT is a 'KNOCK-OFF' copied black market product. Plus, they have been BANNED from Europe. In February, 2008, the court said Environ couldn't provide adequate documentation of the quality of their manufacturing besides they violated our Dermaroller patent.

Our metal examiner investigates all counterfeit rollers. The Roll-Cit is very scant with only 76 needles Vs. the genuine Dermaroller which has nearly 200 needles made of quality surgical stainless steel. The Roll-CIT instrument has dull textile needles which means the physician has to press hard to insert the needles and when they hit the bone the needle tip bends into a hook which 'tears' the skin.


You have been over priced however the Roll-CIT is overpriced to the physicians. They charge nearly $500 or more for the home roller and that also has only 76 needles. Our home care roller for transdermal delivery of your acne skin care products is approximately $110 - $140.

Physicians typically charge $800-$1,000 per CIT procedure in the US for a full facial. Of course this will vary per physician, country, and income area. Yes, the Dermatology Journal study of 78 patients resulted in 70% to 80% improvement of severly depressed acne scars after a CIT (collagen induction therapy) series. A series is usually 3 treatments.

Good luck to you and happy that you had good success.

Regards,
Marcia Renner, USA

[dr philippa]

Hi Everyone

One of my patients sent me this link and I would like to set the record straight. I am a doctor, practicing in Sydney Australia. I have been needling acne scars since 2002, when I learnt a technique called electroridopuncture from a Swiss dermatologist, Dr Philippe Simonin. Around the same time, Dr Des Fernandes manufactured the Environ CIT Rol Roller but, unfortunately, it was very expensive and made each treatment too expensive for my patients. 12 months later, one of my patients told me about Dermarollers and I purchased some to trial for my patients. At that time, Mr Liebl, the manufacturer, who is not a doctor, did not realise they could be used for acne scarring. So I did the original trials for the Dermarollers on acne scarring and the results were good. Mr Liebl used my before and after shots on his website and acknowledged my contribution. Unfortunately at that time, Mr Liebl would not accept that his rollers were medical devices and I was unable to get them registered in my country. This was very frustrating as I knew skin needling was a great treatment for depressed acne scarring.

Over the next 12 months I made my own roller and had it registered as a medical device in Australia in 2005. Many things have changed since I first started skin needling. Skin needling is now recognised by many doctors as a excellent treatment for depressed acne scarring. There are also now many skin rollers being manufactured in a number of different countries.

It is unethical for me to comment on the products of any other company. Clearskincare rollers are registered medical devices with Australia's Therapeutic Goods Administration. They are the only autoclavable ( ie is able to be sterilised and reused ) roller in the world. Submitting our rollers to 134 degree heat in an autoclave does require them to be made from the highest quality stainless steel and autoclavable plastic. I will continue to make rollers until there is an affordable alternative available in my country as my primary interest is in treating patients not being a manufacturer.

I am very excited and happy that so many people suffering depressed acne scarring can now access a simple and affordable treatment that can help to improve their scarring.

Unfortunately, there are now so many myths surrounding skin needling that you patients are being unnecessarily frightened away from this excellent treatment.

The key elements to success with skin needling are:

1. Your skin's ability to manufacture collagen - every person is different, some people are quick collagen makers, other can be quite slow. In my experience, everyone will have some improvement.

2. Repeated treatments - to make new collagen and fill up scars you will need lots and lots of treatments. In my own practice I use skin needling in combination with a number of other clinical treatments to get the best results. There is never one treatment that will fix everyone. Anyone who says differently has never been a practicing clinican!

3. Needle diameter. Again trial and error with my own patients has shown a needle diameter of .25mm is the ideal size to maximise dermal injury without creating a new scar.

Feel free to email me with any questions you have about skin needling or acne in general.

[derma_roller]

March 26, 2008 dr Philippa wrote. EXCERPT: "Clearskincare rollers are registered medical devices with Australia's Therapeutic Goods Administration."

Horst Liebl speaks well of Dr. Philippa McCaffrey as early-on she discovered the most effective acne scar treatments using the Dermaroller invention. She made a TREMENDOUS contribution that benefits patients throughout the World!

Many have tried to file a patent for a copied rolling device and they are refused a 'patent' as there is only one patent regardless of where you live. As of January 2008, Dermaroller® is the owner of the U.S. patent and registered trademark, also European patent and trademark and other countries as well.

The Dermaroller is FDA registered as a Medical Device in the United States. You do not have to prove you have a patent or trademark to file a FDA Medical Device as they are not regulatory regarding patents and trademarks.

SEE US FDA Website for Dermaroller: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh...ocs/cfRL/rl.cfm

When you do a NEW SEARCH put the name of any copied roller in the FDA Website you will find out 'if' they are registered as a Medical Device in the US.

The Dermaroller manufacturer sees many poor copies come to the market --they use cheap products and take short cuts in manufacturing and sterilizing.

When copies are not registered, they do not make a legal entry through the Port Authority for FDA & customs. Copied rollers typically come through the mail from China, Korea, and Thailand. These factories are not regulated or inspected for gamma irradiation sterilization. Rollers made in factories not regulated or send rollers not sterilized can easily have E. coli or staphycoccus on the roller. 'Buyer Beware.'

Regards,

Marcia Renner
CEO/President
North American Division of Dermaroller®
913-832-8884
www.dermaroller.de

[derma_roller]

ADDENDUM:
"INNOVATION IN SCIENCE & ENGINEERING VS NEEDLES THAT DISLODGE"


Dr. Horst Liebl has a PhD in engineering which is why the product has such precision, design, and construction as he uses the TOP quality materials. (The medical grade stainless steel needles are 'twins' to the acupuncture needle.)

Mr. Liebl could easily prepare a thesis on collagen induction therapy. In World wide medical research facilities for the Dermaroller research he has met with the greatest minds in science on cell regeneration and Collagen Induction Therapy.

The Dermaroller has research & development facilities at the University of Ankara in Turkey, University of Milano in Italy, research at various Universities in Germany including Marburg University, and India, as well as two medical research facilities in the U.S.

A US Bioscience manufacturer uses the Dermaroller in production to prepare the dermis of fetal calves for plastic surgery reconstruction. The Dermaroller makes precise holes for the 'mesh-like' skin needed for transplant surgeries.
SEE: http://dermaroller.wordpress.com/2008/05/1...ction/#comments interesting blog written by Horst Liebl on Collagen from the www.dermaroller.com Website. Feel free to leave a question in the blog.

The Dermaroller has medical grade surgical stainless steel needles that are 'folded-in' to secure and prevent the needles from dislodging.

Copied rollers were inspected by an independent metal inspector who discovered the copied roller needles were NOT secured as the needles were stuck in the plastic roller like a 'pin cushion.' Without securing the needles, the copies can easily dislodge needles which are 'left stuck in the skin' after the rolling is completed.[/color] We've had physicians report the same results when dissecting the patented Dermaroller (secured needles) Vs. the counterfeit copied roller (unsecured). I guess they were checking to see if our information was correct. However, do not do this as you could injure yourself.
[color="#000000"]Regards,

Marcia Renner
CEO/President
North American Division of Dermaroller®
913-832-8884
www.dermaroller.de

[Lutya]

I just wanted to tell you guys that my Bath & Body Works had the Leaf & Rusher DermaRoller 75% off at their Semi-Annual Sale. I'm not sure if it's ending today or not but you might check it out. I got one today for $24.50!

[dragonfly ink]

I am a tattoo artist with specialized training in skin needling. The process is really rather gentle, and less damaging than lazer treatments. Downtime is minimal and easy.

It works by stimulating the body's natural production of collegen and elastin to "plump" the scarred skin to a more smooth texture.

The problem with dermarollers is that is is random and you run the risk of increasing collagen in areas you do not want it increased.

In looking for a practictioner of needling, be sure s/he has some training.

Good Luck

[JCKLINGER]

Hi there!

I have some acne holes on my forehead, cheeks and the the sides of of face. After reading about all the laser removal gone bad, I trying to find something else. The is when I came across The medical roll CIT (collagen induction therapy )on Dr. Andres Bustillo's website. They have a video having the procedure performed but never show a follow-up video with the results. I also checked local10's website but never found the results video.

Before I shell out $3000 for this, I want to know if it really works. Has anyone tried it? What were your results? Has anyone had this done a few months ago or a yr? How is it going? Does anyone out there have any experience with Dr. Bustillo in Miami?

I can barley find anything on this procedure on-line. It is not even listed on acne.org as a procedure. If it is as great as they claim , why is it not mentioned much?

If have you have any before and after pics, that would be great!

Thanks for your help!

[tj101]

I also saw a video from Dr. Bustillo, they did show an after picture. This was for wrinkles though. The results showed 70% improvement after one month with just one procedure.

$3000 seems a little expensive, but if they can guarantee you results I guess that's OK.

I would just buy a dermaroller and do this myself and save a lot of money. It is relatively easy to use them.

[robertlapwing]

I am little skeptical of these dermarollers at the moment. How much of this so called improvement is just swelling? If you have to repeat the procedure ever few months then it doesn't sound like real collagen induction to me. And there is the idea of getting a big procedure and then keep on continually wounding yourself afterward with a smaller roller, which does sound that good to me either.

[bug]

does anyone know where i can find a list of doctors who do dermarolling, by state?

[tj101]

I am little skeptical of these dermarollers at the moment. How much of this so called improvement is just swelling? If you have to repeat the procedure ever few months then it doesn't sound like real collagen induction to me. And there is the idea of getting a big procedure and then keep on continually wounding yourself afterward with a smaller roller, which does sound that good to me either.

I think is obvious you do not understand how needling is supposed to work. I won't go into details, you can find the mechanism here in the forums or somewhere else on the net from all the places that have this info.

As I mentioned on the post above, the video showed the improvement in wrinkles AFTER ONE MONTH, so this was not due to sweliing.


There's swelling after needling, which is great by itself since your scars can be leveled for up to a week regardless of whether you'll get permanent results.


You only do a series of 3 - 4 treaments and you are done.
The smaller rollers you mentioned are only used to increase penetration of skin care products and not for collagen induction.

There have been studies done in the effect of needling and new collagen formation.

does anyone know where i can find a list of doctors who do dermarolling, by state?

In which state do you live?

[ouioui]

how about a listing of all the doctors in the usa who perform this with the dermaroller?

[JCKLINGER]

Hi Steve!

How are you? I am sure glad you posted some information about the medical roll, cit. I can barely find anything on it. It sounds like it gave you real results but it would be great to see it. Do you have any pictures? Maybe you don't want to post pics with the scars. I understand but maybe you can just zoom in on the cheek area or something and no one will be able to tell its you.

How is your skin now? I would do this procedure if it really does work, even if it costs $3000. I live in Florida and have only found one doctor on-line that does the procedure but I am not sure if I can trust him. So people will say anything to make money.

I do wonder why is it so expensive and why is it not a really known procedure if it is so effective? Any inform you can provide would be great.

Thanks,

JC




[on itquote name='stevo396' date='Jun 10 2007, 08:47 PM' post='1901059']
Hey guys,

Im not sure if theres a more suitable topic to write about my experience with scarring, but here my story goes.

Im a 22 yr old guy whose had mild acne for the last 9 or so years. I went through the usual journey on antibiotics, steiva A etc without much success. So buy the time my acne cleared up for a while at the age of 18, i had the SHOCK of realising that underneath the acne was a bunch (say 20?) of shallow scars on my cheeks and temples.

So i set about then conquiring this by surfing the net, finding absolutly nothing of use at the time, and so then visiting my GP (no help, he suggested the punch treatment!...) i then visited an apparently specialist dermatologist (at the cost of $110 for a 10 minute yarn) where he purscirbed stieva A for the acne which had come back and wait for it...that the best way about treating the scarring was to work on myself on the inside...basically noone could help.

Anyway the boring life story goes on for another few years when i had my acne treated properly with PDT (Photo Dynamic Therapy for those who dont know) in early 2006. When the acne had cleared suffiently (though not entirely) i was then able to tackle head on the scarring. I discovered the dermaroller procedure or as i know it..the roll cit.

I then investigated places in Sydney that specialise in the treatment and set about finding a Dr. who i felt comfortable with and who i thought had at least some concern for my wellbeing.

I underwent the first roll cit procedure June 2006, full face, i.e from forehead to chin and ear to ear costing $2000 Aus. I wont go into detail as this post is already long winded. I was put under local anthesia, eyelids taped down and away he went. It took about and hour in all. During recovery i had to apply an enriched vitamin A, C (and other stuff) oil which is the most important factor in reducing the scarring. My face was quite swollen and it was had to eat, see and sleep. From what i can remember recovery was about 18 days or so.

After that first treatment i decided to go back for a second. Id say the first had reduced the scarring at least 50% and i was happy about it, but we all know how we internally exagerate the smallest imperfections. So the second was just done on the cheeks and temple 6 months later costing $1500 and since then id say the scarring reduced down a further 40%.

Alrighty, ill shutup now. Im more than happy to answer anyones questions,

Cheers,
Steve
[/quote]

[robertlapwing]

I am trying to get a gauge of real results here. A lot of people in the past with CO2 for example claimed great results and then a year or so later the great results disappeared. I don't know if it was swelling, but it was something akin to it in that it went away and the depressed scars came back.

So many people claim great results. I only now believe in results that are seen 12+ months after a procedure with no followup procedures in between. Otherwise I don't believe them.

Again I have seen the same hoopla with TCA stuff and then results just go away...

[isoflous]

I'm from Hong Kong. Let me report the situation here.

Up to this point, Dermaroller has not been adopted by any certified dermatologists or plastic surgeons, who only offer fractional laser, although Dermaroller has been widely used by general practitioners to complement fractional laser.

Almost every beauty that have advertisements on magazines offer Dermaroller treatment as the mainstay treatment for acne scars and wrinkles.

PS: Dermaroller is called MTS (microneedle therapy system) here.

[logger710]

There is a company in Ireland that sell Dr.Roller branded derma rollers that include free delivery to anywhere in the world.They sell for only €45/$62 delivered to your door.They also accept paypal.

To buy them goto:

*Moderator edit, URL removed - read the board rules. *

For more information on these Dr.Rollers goto:

*Moderator edit, URL removed - read the board rules. *

These guys are great to deal with and brilliant prices with free delivery.I bougt the .5mm and 1mm from them.I haven't worked up the courage to use the 1.5 yet.

[d3press3dgal]

hello agaiN!

i just rolled my face today and its mt 1st time to use dermaROLLEr..

I was using the 1.5mm for my depressed acne scar.

1st, i applied numb cream all over my face for 30mins. afterwards, wiped my face with facial tissue and rinse it with distilled water to remove the numb cream.

2nd, I applied Retynil Palmitate Serum and then a Collagen and Elastin Cream.

3rd, I Rolled my face using my 1.5mm dermaroller. After rolling it all over my face, my face was so red like a sunburnt. BUT there was no blood at all. I rolled it with average pressure though.

4th, after rolling, I washed my face with very cold water with ice.

5th, I put firming face mas that has the mixture of pearl essence, vitaMIN C and coenzyme Q10. after putting the facemask for 15mins. I applied Vitamin c serum

THATS IT...

But guys, please get back to me coz I was wondering coz there was no blood when i rolled my face with average pressure. My face just turned to red. When I applied the Vitamin C Serum after rolling it, there was no any tingling sensation. After 20 mins, my skin has become less red and agter 35 mins, my skin looks like i was just using blush on.... There was no stinging effect... PLEASE HELP me know on whats going on to my face, if its normal or wat.. coz when I read most of the posts here, they sais it takes for them 24 hrs to 3 days and some even took beyong 3 days to get back their skin into normal.... PLS help me whats going on to my face...

[Nilou]

I really think that if you use clean fingers and massage the area, its pretty much the same?