9 replies to this topic

[Naturalis]

So here is the study about insulin responses created by 1000 KJ portions of different foods:

www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/66/5/1264.pdf

What I find interesting that very low GL protein rich foods trigger quite big insulin release.

Beef is worse than white pasta! And fish is even worse than beef.

Maybe this is one of the reasons why many people have failed to clear their skin with high protein paleo diets?

I have tried pretty much everything for my hormonal acne (moderate at worst but cysts on chin that take ages to heal aren't fun) like cutting all dairy and eating low carbs which both have helped but still never completely cleared me.

I will try cutting my protein intake a lot and eat only foods with low insulin index and see how it goes.

Edited by Naturalis, 31 January 2010 - 08:55 AM.

[nowash]

I was aware of it. The thing is, now that I actually look at it, it's kind of skewed and it kind of serves no purpose to normal eaters. It does kind of kill any food combining theory, though. I'll explain.

First point, why it's skewed, the use of white bread as the standard. Wheat germ agglutinin (WGA, a lectin present in wheat germ and in the gliadin portion of gluten) has been shown to enter the bloodstream from the gut (due to it's zonulin upregulating abilities? Idk.) and bind directly to the pancreas, stimulating insulin release. I doubt they knew this back then though. If they wanted to use bread as a standard they should have used traditional sourdough, which has been shown to have a lower GI and lower insulin response (which is weird now that I think about that, too*).

Secondly, why it serves no purpose to normal eaters (well it does, but not in the way we think). This is a test after a 12 hour fasting period. The testees have fallen back to using gluconeogenesis for glucose fuel. In other words, they are on a ketogenic diet at that point. Heres something from wikipedia:

This process occurs during periods of fasting, starvation, low-carbohydrate diets, or intense exercise** and is highly endergonic. Gluconeogenesis is often associated with ketosis.

Knowing this we can assume correctly that if glucose is already in our blood or being absorbed the effects of these tables will not be present when eating protein (except for dairy and WGA***).

What good is this chart? Well, it tells us a couple of things.

One, it explains how significantly important it is to always eat carbs when eating protein in order to prevent gluconeogenesis. Take out the skewers of the study, dairy (read *** subscript) and WGA, and take a look at the chart now. You'll notice that most all of the protein containing foods insulin responses are inversely related to the amount of carbs they contain, too. Eggs and peanuts are low because they do not use gluconeogenesis but use the carbs already present in the food as a fuel source. Lentils are still high, though, which I presume is because they're so starchy. This proves that it's really effing dumb to think that you cannot eat protein with carbs (food combination theory). Amylase (carb enzyme) in your saliva DOES become inert by the stomach acid that digests our protein, but that only shows that you should chew and savor your food well (coat that stuff with saliva, really).

Two, it explains that after fasting the best thing to come out to eat is fibery, low-GI carbs. Also, if you are doing a fasting elimination diet for acne, always test protein with a safe carb, so you don't skew your results.

Lastly, it explains why some no-carb or low-carb diets do not work, which you already pointed out.

*Researchers believe when you eat sourdough bread digestion is slowed down due to the lactic acid. If that were the case yogurt would have a low insulin index score, which has a really high one (115). Instead I believe the WGA, which is inhibited by N-acetylglucosamine, is being rendered inert by the bacteria in tradiational sourdough (which contain NAG in their cell walls). That reasoning explains why normal white bread is so high (WGA's insulinotropic effects) and why sourdough bread is low. The thing I don't understand is why is sourdough's GI lower, too. Maybe the lactic acid does slow down digestion (I always thought acid sped it up, promoted digestion). Or perhaps I'm thinking about this the wrong way. Nonetheless, sourdough = better.

**I believe intense exercise is due to the fact that the muscles cannot get glucose fast enough. It should not affect acne in that way.

***Whey protein in dairy has been shown to be highly insulinotropic, which researchers believe is because of the high amount of the amino acid leucine present, IIRC. People still eat yogurt because of the probiotic benefits. Look at the chart, it's worse than white bread (115)! Also, people STILL believe it's due to the amount of antibiotics and hormones in dairy, so that eating organic would be fine. It's not. FFS, it's NOT. IT'S THE PROTEIN IN IT THAT'S SO BAD. Look at the Amish! They lead a healthy, labor-driven, god-fearing life, yet they STILL get acne. Do NOT eat dairy, guys. Get your probiotics elsewhere.

[Naturalis]

Knowing this we can assume correctly that if glucose is already in our blood or being absorbed the effects of these tables will not be present when eating protein

What about excess protein? Would that be converted by gluconeogenesis or does body get rid of it some other way? One thing I have always noticed when cutting protein is that my pee goes from yellow color to clear.

Eggs and peanuts are low because they do not use gluconeogenesis but use the carbs already present in the food as a fuel source.

Eggs have like 0.5g of carbs. I don't think that would be enough to prevent gluconeogenesis. There are probably some other factors that affect II.

Fats are the most neutral energy source for insulin load right?

[nowash]

Ah, right right, this is isocaloric, controlled at 1000 kJ (approx. 240 Cal). So higher fat means less proteins and carbs... Eggs have half the amount of protein used in this study compared to the amount in fish and beef used, so it has half the insulin score.

Ah. Straight from the study's text:

Thus, postprandial insulin responses are not always propor
tional to blood glucose concentrations or to a meal's total
carbohydrate content. Several insulinotropic factors are known
to potentiate the stimulatory effect of glucose and mediate
postprandial insulin secretion. These include fructose, certain
amino acids and fatty acids, and gastrointestinal hormones such
as gastric inhibitory peptide, glucagon, and cholecystokinin
(25, 26). Thus, protein- and fat-rich foods may induce substan
tial insulin secretion despite producing relatively small blood
glucose responses. We therefore decided that comparing the
insulinemic effects of foods on an isoenergetic basis was a
logical and practical approach.

I guess we need to find out what foods those are in, too.

What about excess protein? Would that be converted by gluconeogenesis or does body get rid of it some other way? One thing I have always noticed when cutting protein is that my pee goes from yellow color to clear.

Not sure, but I think protein only goes through gluconeogenesis when it is used as a fuel source, when an alternate fuel source is needed. So as long as your carb intake is stable, you'd be okay. The reason your pee is not yellow when you cut protein is because you are taking in less vitamin B2 (riboflavin). It is a water soluble vitamin, so the body cannot store it in fat, so it has to excrete the excess out. It's found mostly in protein-rich foods. Meat (along with all other B vitamins) contain a lot, but so does dairy and legumes, as well as leafy greens.

I know there are studies that said fat can raise insulin, but it's certain types of fat. Saturated fat is not just sat fat, it includes palmitic acid, stearic acid, etc... I'm sure if we found out what fats they are we'd understand what makes a healthy food.

Leucine is one of the amino acids they're talking about, but I'm not sure how much is in protein foods except dairy. They're probably others, too.

Honestly, I'm starting to believe that acne, at least for me, will have to be grown out of. Not to say I cannot control it through diet, but I'm eating relatively well yet I still get pimples from certain types of exercise. I was doing high impact leg exercises (jumping and stuff, no weights) yesterday and I noticed later that night, while my legs were sore, that a pimple was appearing just below my lips. I feel that I'm still growing even though I'm 21, and if stimulating that growth causes me acne, I'll say fuck it to worrying about it now. What good is clear skin if I cannot grow? Diet is still good though; almost any exercise beforehand would cause me to break out. Now, not so much. I can live with a minute amount of acne for the sake of longer legs and higher bone mass density.

[alternativista]

Mark's Daily Apple post on the insulinemic effects of dairy:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/dairy-insulin/

It comes down to the amino acid composition of dairy proteins, specifically the amino acids leucine, valine, lysine, and isoleucine. These are the truly insulinogenic proteins, and they’re highest in whey (which is probably why whey protein elicits the biggest insulin response).

Also, aromas and flavors can stimulate an insulin response, such as sweet aromas and artificial sweeteners.

Study: http://www.ajcn.org/content/80/5/1246.full.pdf+html

Just keep in mind that most of the charts are based on a certain amount of calories worth of the food. So when they show whey being by far the most insulinemic, it's because it's low fat/low calorie so they are using a lot of whey to get those calories. While with high fat butter and cream, they are using small amounts to get those calories.

Edited by alternativista, 14 July 2011 - 08:55 AM.

[greentiger87]

My head hurts. Can we just eat a variety of real food and forget about it? I mean chances are, we'll be looking back at ourselves in 20 years and thinking ZOMG they were so stupid/mislead/lacked the whole picture.

[alternativista]

My head hurts. Can we just eat a variety of real food and forget about it? I mean chances are, we'll be looking back at ourselves in 20 years and thinking ZOMG they were so stupid/mislead/lacked the whole picture.

Of course you can. Isn't that what you do? It's what I do.

[greentiger87]

My head hurts. Can we just eat a variety of real food and forget about it? I mean chances are, we'll be looking back at ourselves in 20 years and thinking ZOMG they were so stupid/mislead/lacked the whole picture.

Of course you can. Isn't that what you do? It's what I do.

Well, it is what I do, but I've never consciously thought if it that way. I'm still emotionally attached to the idea of honing towards the "optimal diet". I'm starting to get the feeling that its more stress/effort than its worth. Better to go jogging in my free time than be on the computer looking at research papers about food... I look at research papers all day anyway.

Okay thanks for letting me be emo.

[Tangerine]

Well, it is what I do, but I've never consciously thought if it that way. I'm still emotionally attached to the idea of honing towards the "optimal diet". I'm starting to get the feeling that its more stress/effort than its worth. Better to go jogging in my free time than be on the computer looking at research papers about food... I look at research papers all day anyway.

Okay thanks for letting me be emo.

Ups for this! I definitely think people put too much time and effort into the nitty gritty of their diets. Does it really matter? The stress of the whole thing is worse than eating a little bit of something that isn't optimal. I think peace and happiness is much more important in getting clear than the tiny little details of a well rounded whole foods diet.

[Thehoper]

Most definitely. I'm glad I got through the stress part, now I just know what I can and cannot eat. Like I've said before though eating healthy doesn't stress me out, eating unhealthy actually did stress me out haha. When I use to eat pounds of sugar every day I would get irritable easy.

But yeah vita, tiger, tangerine, we know how to eat. So now we can relax and just enjoy different dishes of healthy foods.

I honestly never think it's never worth it to be like "This diet is causing way too much stress, screw this I'm about to hit every fast food joint on the block!"

Just like that Lao Tzu said, every journey of a thousand steps begins with one.

We have gone like 8,000 steps lol, why go back? We've gone too far!