37 replies to this topic

[zitsick]

No, that's not my conclusion. I'm just concluding that extra androgens (regardless of their source) won't do it.

So you're concluding that neither endogenous nor exogenous androgens will increase sebum production???? wow.

So if these doctors couldn't even increase sebum production with such a large daily dose of pharmaceutical androgens, what makes you think that your choice of FOOD is going to increase androgens enough to do the trick?

And since sebum production wasn't increased by synthetic androgens in one 47 year old study, then you're extrapolating that it's not possible for something like FOOD to influence andgrogen synthesis and therefore sebum production in any other study???

Edited by zitsick, 11 November 2009 - 10:30 PM.

[bryan]

So you're concluding that neither endogenous nor exogenous androgens will increase sebum production???? wow.

That's correct. Do you have any other explanation for Kligman's study, other than that they (supposedly) happened to pick some VERRRRY unusual biological specimens for test-subjects?

BTW, I'll mention here that there IS one other possible factor having to do with that issue that wasn't discussed in that study, and I've mentioned it as a vague possibility in other posts about that study a long time ago on this forum. Can you think of what it is?

And since sebum production wasn't increased by synthetic androgens in one 47 year old study, then you're extrapolating that it's not possible for something like FOOD to influence andgrogen synthesis and therefore sebum production in any other study???

Yes. I think it's very obvious that FOOD can't influence androgen levels enough to increase sebum (again, for the third or fourth time, through ANDROGENS ALONE). If you know of a study that contradicts that idea in any way, please post it here.

[zitsick]

Yes. I think it's very obvious that FOOD can't influence androgen levels enough to increase sebum (again, for the third or fourth time, through ANDROGENS ALONE). If you know of a study that contradicts that idea in any way, please post it here.

sheesh, did you not even read my original post, nor the studies referenced in the article I found at ehow? There are 2 studies mentioned there showing that diet does affect androgens and sebum production. Please show me how Kligman's 1962 research refutes the results.

[zitsick]

actually, never mind.

no offense, but I'm worried there may be something wrong with you (ie nothing in the world will increase sebum production obsessed).

yeah, am now completely annoyed.

[bryan]

sheesh, did you not even read my original post, nor the studies referenced in the article I found at ehow? There are 2 studies mentioned there showing that diet does affect androgens and sebum production. Please show me how Kligman's 1962 research refutes the results.

I just took a look at it. Unfortunately, there aren't any "studies" showing that diet increases sebum production by increasing androgens. There are a couple of REVIEW ARTICLES suggesting that as a vague possibility, but they aren't laboratory experiments demonstrating that actually to be the case. Don't you recall that even in the early Kligman study, the authors expressed their great surprise that the oral androgen didn't have any effect on the sebum production in the men? As I told you before, that fact was highly counterintuitive, and apparently even many doctors never got the word about it, considering how many times that old chestnut about "insulin causes androgen which causes sebum which causes acne" has been repeated, even in more recent years!

[bryan]

yeah, am now completely annoyed.

Good. I've opened your mind a little to consider things that never occurred to you before. I hope you're questioning some of the assumptions you've been making all this time.

[heehee3]

increase in oil production doesn equal to increase in acne..u can try using all the cheap cleansers that dry out ur skin pernamently n ur skin is chronically dry n u still have acne

[cprlfred]

These were the last two lines of my original post:

I'd like to ask people to only post real scientific theories/tests, or if is their own theory that they at least tested it using scientific method to some degree.

My hope is to collect all the important info, filter out the junk, and then assemble it into something that is helpful to people.

Unfortunately, all that has come of this topic has been a few nice, but unhelpful comments, one completely ridiculous comment that I can only assume was written by an 11 year old, and as expected, a back-and-forth tirade between Bryan and some other guy.

Bryan, you're a very smart guy - if someone sys something that doesnt relate to the post (scientific evidence for increase in oil production) or is based off an illogical or unproven asumption, could you possibly just ignore their comment?

I was really hoping to get some actual help from people in understanding sebum and all the complex processes that go along with its production.

well. here's trying again.

[Maya94]

I'm sure that I'm terribly wrong, but I have this theory.....
Maybe the sebaceous glands all connect at SOME CORRUPT POINT under the skin... Maybe if we could FIND that corrupted point in the skin where the glands meet, we could FIX it??
Or maybe it's not the sebaceous glands that connect, but some place under the skin where the main place of sebum production is located.... I don't know, this is just my theory...
My second theory is that by inserting [air bubbles] into the pores SOMEHOW, we can kill P. acnes, which are the bacteria that cause acne to form. As we should all know, bacteria cannot survive in the presence of oxygen; therefore, this is how I came up with this theory of [air bubbles].

[{DC}]

I dont know what kind of testosterone kligman was using, but people who use roids definitely show more acne and oily skin.

[bryan]

I dont know what kind of testosterone kligman was using...

I've stated many times that he used methyl testosterone.

...but people who use roids definitely show more acne and oily skin.

One theory of my own is that they didn't get any increase in sebum with a daily dose of 300 mg of methyl testosterone for the simple reason that the bodies of the young men downregulated their own production of testosterone as a result, since the human male body keeps testosterone closely regulated. But I believe bodybuilders who use steroids generally OVERWHELM that internal regulation by using supraphysiological levels of androgens! Maybe THAT is the reason why some steroid users make more sebum!

[spectacled_owl]

"Androgens affect sebocytes and infundibular keratinocytes in a complex manner influencing cellular differentiation, proliferation, lipogenesis and comedogenesis. Retention hyperkeratosis in closed comedones and inflammatory papules is attributable to a disorder of terminal keratinocyte differentiation. Propionibacterium acnes, by acting on TLR-2, may stimulate the secretion of cytokines, such as interleukin (IL)-6 and IL-8 by follicular keratinocytes and IL-8 and -12 in macrophages, giving rise to inflammation. Certain P. acnes species may induce an immunological reaction by stimulating the production of sebocyte and keratinocyte antimicrobial peptides, which play an important role in the innate immunity of the follicle. Qualitative changes of sebum lipids induce alteration of keratinocyte differentiation and induce IL-1 secretion, contributing to the development of follicular hyperkeratosis. High glycemic load food and milk may induce increased tissue levels of 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone."

Exp Dermatol. 2009 Oct;18(10):821-32. Epub 2009 Jun 23. New developments in our understanding of acne pathogenesis and treatment. Emphasis mine.

I'm not going to pretend I know what all of that means. What I am getting from it is that androgens do have an effect on sebaceous glands (how much is produced and what it's made of basically) and high GI foods and dairy increase specific androgens that are directly related in the formation of acne.

Now, what makes some people susceptible to said immunological response and not others?

I can say for myself that reducing high GI foods has greatly reduced oil production and inflammation. My acne is not cured but I know how to keep it under control.

[bryan]

I'm not going to pretend I know what all of that means. What I am getting from it is that androgens do have an effect on sebaceous glands (how much is produced and what it's made of basically)...

Sure, but the point I've been making for a long time is that it seems like you're more likely to get a DECREASE in sebaceous gland function by DECREASING androgens, than to get an INCREASE in sebaceous gland function by INCREASING androgens. Kligman's own explanation for the lack of any increase in sebum in men who were given 300 mg/day of methyl testosterone was that even normal levels of androgens in men are sufficient to "max-out" the sebaceous response. So you can go DOWN in sebaceous response with the appropriate use of antiandrogens and/or other similar measures, but going UP in sebaceous response is more difficult, requiring you to hit it really hard with external androgens (like steroid-abusing bodybuilders).

...and high GI foods and dairy increase specific androgens that are directly related in the formation of acne.

I've also mentioned a bunch of times on this forum that study from a few years ago which found no effect at all on acne from the use of Merck's experimental drug which reduces the formation of DHT from testosterone. These issues having to do with acne and androgens are a lot more subtle than most people think! Personally, I doubt that high GI foods and milk promote acne by any method that has anything directly to do with androgens. Kligman's finding above seems to squelch that possibility: if 300 mg/day of methyl testosterone doesn't affect sebum, how could drinking a glass of milk produce enough androgens to do it?

Edited by bryan, 03 May 2010 - 07:37 AM.

[spectacled_owl]

I'm not going to pretend I know what all of that means. What I am getting from it is that androgens do have an effect on sebaceous glands (how much is produced and what it's made of basically)...

Sure, but the point I've been making for a long time is that it seems like you're more likely to get a DECREASE in sebaceous gland function by DECREASING androgens, than to get an INCREASE in sebaceous gland function by INCREASING androgens. Kligman's own explanation for the lack of any increase in sebum in men who were given 300 mg/day of methyl testosterone was that even normal levels of androgens in men are sufficient to "max-out" the sebaceous response. So you can go DOWN in sebaceous response with the appropriate use of antiandrogens and/or other similar measures, but going UP in sebaceous response is more difficult, requiring you to hit it really hard with external androgens (like steroid-abusing bodybuilders).

...and high GI foods and dairy increase specific androgens that are directly related in the formation of acne.

I've also mentioned a bunch of times on this forum that study from a few years ago which found no effect at all on acne from the use of Merck's experimental drug which reduces the formation of DHT from testosterone. These issues having to do with acne and androgens are a lot more subtle than most people think! Personally, I doubt that high GI foods and milk promote acne by any method that has anything directly to do with androgens. Kligman's finding above seems to squelch that possibility: if 300 mg/day of methyl testosterone doesn't affect sebum, how could drinking a glass of milk produce enough androgens to do it?

Well I think it's a bit more complex than that, and I think that's what we're trying to get at here, right? The Merck study you mentioned, is that for MK386, the type 1 5alpha-reductase inhibitor? I have not seen a study where they tested it on acne - could you point me to it? Regardless, I still don't think it's that simple. I mean, there are plenty of people who have very oily skin but no acne.

I know this topic is titled "scientific evidence for increase in oil production" so I hope I'm not going too far off topic. I just feel there is something different about oil production in someone with acne vs. someone without acne.

This is where diet plays a role.

Since I've cut out high GI food and most dairy, my oil production is greatly reduced. It was almost instant. The few zits I have gotten are not inflamed. There is definitely a connection with diet - it's just not as simple as the diet reducing oil production via hormones. What I want to know is, what else is going on with our sebaceous glands that lets p. acnes run amok "Certain P. acnes species may induce an immunological reaction by stimulating the production of sebocyte and keratinocyte antimicrobial peptides, which play an important role in the innate immunity of the follicle." (from my earlier post)

It seems there must be a link with this increase in oil production and the normal function of our sebaceous glands - which I think may be affected by diet in certain individuals.

[bryan]

Well I think it's a bit more complex than that, and I think that's what we're trying to get at here, right?

It _is_ more complex than that. A LOT more complex, in fact. That's why it's been driving me crazy for years when other posters are constantly saying things like: "Eating doughnuts and cake is bad for acne because they make your body produce more androgens, which makes more sebum."

I'm not necessarily saying that eating doughnuts and cake isn't bad for acne, just that the common explanation that everybody uses about (supposedly) increasing androgens is incorrect!

The Merck study you mentioned, is that for MK386, the type 1 5alpha-reductase inhibitor?

Yes indeed. They refer to it as something else in the study, but it's definitely MK386!

I have not seen a study where they tested it on acne - could you point me to it?

J Am Acad Dermatol. 2004 Mar;50(3):443-7.

"A systemic type I 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor is ineffective in the treatment of acne vulgaris."

Leyden J, Bergfeld W, Drake L, Dunlap F, Goldman MP, Gottlieb AB, Heffernan MP, Hickman JG, Hordinsky M, Jarrett M, Kang S, Lucky A, Peck G, Phillips T, Rapaport M, Roberts J, Savin R, Sawaya ME, Shalita A, Shavin J, Shaw JC, Stein L, Stewart D, Strauss J, Swinehart J, Swinyer L, Thiboutot D, Washenik K, Weinstein G, Whiting D, Pappas F, Sanchez M, Terranella L, Waldstreicher J.

University of Pennsylvania Hospital, 36th and Spruce Streets, Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA.

Abstract
Excessive sebum production is a central aspect of the pathophysiology of acne vulgaris. Sebaceous gland function is under androgen control and it is hypothesized that dihydrotestosterone is formed by the action of 5 alpha-reductase. Type I is the controlling isoenzyme. This study describes a 3-month, multicenter, randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trial with a potent, selective inhibitor of type I 5 alpha-reductase used alone and in combination with systemic minocycline. Inhibition of type I 5 alpha-reductase was not associated with clinical improvement of acne when used alone and did not enhance the clinical benefit of systemic minocycline. These results indicate the need for further work at the molecular level to better understand the action of androgens on sebaceous gland function.

Edited by bryan, 03 May 2010 - 06:09 PM.

[spectacled_owl]

Thanks for posting that. Well I see where your frustration comes from now. I'm surprised that the MK386 didn't seem to have any effect on acne? I do wish I could read the entire article though (not that that will make much difference ha).

So that study was from 2004 - and there's no new ideas brewing? Looks like my ass needs to get back in school

[bryan]

Thanks for posting that. Well I see where your frustration comes from now. I'm surprised that the MK386 didn't seem to have any effect on acne? I do wish I could read the entire article though (not that that will make much difference ha).

It's only three or four pages long, if I remember correctly. Private-Message me a mailing address to send it to, and I'll be happy to snail-mail a paper copy of it to you!

Yes, I'm baffled, too, as to why it didn't help acne.

[alternativista]

I can say for myself that reducing high GI foods has greatly reduced oil production and inflammation. My acne is not cured but I know how to keep it under control.

I can say that as well. Very quickly in fact. I've gone from having to wash my hair daily to every 3 days and my formerly grotesquely oily skin is not just slightly on the oily side.

Elevated insulin levels affect inflammation, IGF1 and SHBG levels.