514 replies to this topic

[databased]

1. So you're spending the entire time in daylight, then approx. how many hours is that? 14 hours awake, so 14 hours in daylight?

At the peak of summer, I was spending about 10-12 hours outside each day, by the time you subtract off time spent in vehicles, running indoors for something, etc. That was difficult to accomplish, but on the other hand I could pretty much imbibe as much fructose and caffeine as I wanted without getting acne. I also ate a suspicious amount of dairy (ice cream) without having a problem, but not enough to constitute a good experiment; I remain agnostic about whether or not dairy can cause acne via a pathway that cannot be prevented by a normalized melatonin cycle.

Now that it's getting too cold to type outdoors, I'm spending about 10 hours per day in my office, where I've set up eight 4-foot Chroma-50 (more blue spectrum than normal) fluorescent tubes. This is definitely not as good, as I now have to cut back on caffeine (no evening caffeine) and fructose. I also now make an effort to get at least brief aerobic exercise an hour or two after the evening meal (containing meat = tryptophan) to try to help move tryptophan into the brain. I was probably getting that much exercise during the summer too, as walks were more inevitable when the weather was wonderful.

What time do you go to sleep and wake up?

Mostly, I try to arrange things so that I get my >=9 hours sleep before there's much outdoor light. Right now, that means I'm eating supper around 5-6pm and trying to get to sleep around 9-10pm, so that I've got my 9 hours in by around 6am-7am. When I'm managing my light exposure and cutting off caffeine after lunch, I seem to reliably sleep about 9 hours (no alarm clock).

[Joshu]

Hi, just wanted to add some input here.

I thought I had my acne under control with vitamin bcomplex, fishoil, and the caveman regimen (which is the serious attempt to not scrub or wash your face often at all).

I think a combination of these efforts does have an effect on acne, but I hadn't pieced together why i was still breaking out, minorly or majorly from foods or drinks that at times seemed to be nullified, and at other times seemed to be detrimental.

I always assumed that the apparent first hand success of each new piece of my regimen was the 'thing' or factor missing from my life life to quell this thing, but I hadn't noticed the behaviors that usually precipitated or came after I started the new regimen.

and usually successes were preciptated by a surge of outdoor activity.

I remember once going on a driving trip across the U.S. for two weeks - no supplements at all, and no cleaning for the most part... and being completely acne free by the end of the trip. In fact my skin was amazing for the most part.
I assumed at that time it was the caveman regimen aspect, but hadn't assumed that it was actually a change in lifestye lending to the effect.


I'd like to point out that I have for the last 11 years of my life, mostly worked indoors on a computer, with barely any light at most times... and have struggled mightily with acne.
My worst of times were at college, were I almost exclusively slept during the day and worked all night. Extreme breakouts; I learned to control my diet almost exclusively, but never gained complete control. This lead me to accutane eventually, which was a short comfort, and with some long term results, but never a definitive answer.

This summer though, I was completely clear for 3 months, and associated with the use of B-Complex and Fishoil. However, I didn't assume that simply having a friend down who spent almost all his time exclusively outdoors (and me following suit) had any connection.

Amazing then, that after he left back for school, and I was indoors again; ACNE. Huge breakouts.
I was perplexed... and fighting it for the last 3 months lead me here, with your hypothesis. I've resolved to sit outside everyday, and do as much work as possible, and loe and behold I'm seeing some incredible results since.

My sleep cycle (where I used to wake up incredibly tired everyday) has resolved itself, and I wake up refreshed. Not only that, but I've been having incredibly vivid dreams as of late. My REM cycle seems to be working much more efficiently.
Most importantly; no new acne. At first my current bout of acne was resolving itself, but since I've 'charged' up so to speak in the sun, no new spots. I haven't tested my dietary abilities yet as I'd like to clear up first (for psychological, and testing reasons).

I think you've really stumbled onto something here databased and I hope you keep up the research. I've looked around online and have found no one particularly exploring this avenue concerning acne.

I imagine the fact this hasn't been explored so thoroughly yet is that it is probably more symptomatic of adult acne, than it would be hormonal, or teenage acne.


I'm really convinced this might be the final puzzle piece for me concerning acne, and if it is, it is quite a profound one that will require lifestyle changes on my part.
Again, I'd like to hear more, and I'll do my part reporting back the results.

-salute

Edited by Joshu, 15 October 2009 - 01:32 PM.

[Deadmau5]

I was a lifeguard this summer. I was outside everyday for like 10 hours. Acne still stayed the same, the tan helped abit but not much.

[Joshu]

I was a lifeguard this summer. I was outside everyday for like 10 hours. Acne still stayed the same, the tan helped abit but not much.

Yeah, but what other factors contribute? I've personally narrowed down a specific set of things that trigger my acne, and it took years to do.

Being in the sun couldn't possibly be the deciding factor for everyone's acne, but it quite possibly has a role for a lot of people.

This assumption that a single item covers the entirety of everyone's case for acne is misguided and lends to a lot of dismissive postures being impressed on people.

I personally still take vitamin b-complex and fish oil everyday as I have concluded it has a role in curtailing my acne. That won't stop; from anecdotal evidence, being in the sun as well has a huge effect on my acne... so it becomes part of the regimen too, until I've concluded otherwise.

Edited by Joshu, 15 October 2009 - 02:44 PM.

[Deadmau5]

True, I was 100% clear when I was on vacation in the Caribbean I guess the salt water, sun, and no dairy made me clear.

[DireStraits]

Great read databased.
I have a question, I wake up pretty much every night to goto the toilet turn on the bathroom lights then pee and go back to sleep.
Would this be screwing up my melatonin cycle or is it not that big of a deal?
I sleep in a very dark room and I dont wear anything to cover my eyes btw.

Edited by DireStraits, 17 October 2009 - 05:26 AM.

[databased]

I was a lifeguard this summer. I was outside everyday for like 10 hours. Acne still stayed the same, the tan helped abit but not much.

Interesting. So, you didn't wear hat or sunglasses when you were a lifeguard, and there was an unblocked path from your eyeball to the sky all day?

[Deadmau5]

I was a lifeguard this summer. I was outside everyday for like 10 hours. Acne still stayed the same, the tan helped abit but not much.

Interesting. So, you didn't wear hat or sunglasses when you were a lifeguard, and there was an unblocked path from your eyeball to the sky all day?

I wore sunglasses most of the time but I don't know I think the sun isn't enough for my acne. I need the salt water too lol then I get flawless skin.

[databased]

Would this be screwing up my melatonin cycle or is it not that big of a deal?
I sleep in a very dark room and I dont wear anything to cover my eyes btw.

Hard to say for any individual case. There is evidence that the intensity-sensitive cells in the retina can take on the order of 30 seconds to fire, so if you have the lights on only 15 seconds, the odds of an effect are arguably less. Although there's good evidence it doesn't take much light, there's also good evidence for significant individual variation. Consider this study, where 2 out of the 17 subjects just weirdly did not have their melatonin suppressed by nighttime light. Or consider this sleep-disturbed guy, who effectively was putting out no pineal melatonin. Yet, they were able to restore a melatonin rhythm in him by forcibly exposing him to a "normal" pattern of light and darkness. This kind of variation may help explain the wide variation in acne in civilized society; while nearly half the population has at least some acne on any given day, clearly there are people who can violate most any rule that might be associated with acne (light/diet/exercise/whatever) and not get acne.

It's interesting that in the past, the relationship of a disturbed melatonin cycle to cancer has been a hot topic, as melatonin is both generally an anti-oxidant, and more specifically, oncostatic in variety of ways (for example, it is an aromatase inhibitor, emulating what is becoming the most used adjuvant chemotherapy for breast cancer). But more recently, there's growing interest in the possibility that a disturbed melatonin cycle has an influence on things like cardiovascular health, diabetes, and obesity -- such is the widespread effect of melatonin's normal cycle.

This assumption that a single item covers the entirety of everyone's case for acne is misguided and lends to a lot of dismissive postures being impressed on people.

Sure, but I so far I still see a good case that the melatonin cycle could be the backbone cause of the lion's share of acne in civilized society. For example, someone might be a lifeguard getting lots of daytime sun exposure and find that didn't help their acne. But only if that person also does not use alcohol or caffeine or other drugs, goes to bed at the same time every day, and sleeps 9 hours in total darkness every night -- only then does that become one clear contradictory data point for this hypothesis.

That's both the strength and the weakness of this hypothesis. Because it's so hard in civilized society to have a normal melatonin cycle, that makes it plausible that this could explain why roughly half the population has some evidence of acne on any given day. But it also doesn't offer any easy examples of segments of the population that should, therefore, be acne-free. For example, one might think the Amish should be acne-free since they don't drink alcohol or have electric lights. But they do use caffeine AFAICT and they do have artificial lights (just hydrocarbon instead of electric). In fact, ingenious use of air/hydraulic/solar power seems well on the way to making the Amish eschewing of 110VAC a mere show of vanity. It's hard to come up with any group of people in modern society that implicitly avoid ingesting substances that interfere with melatonin, that are exposed to bright light all day, and that sleep long, hard, and regularly in total darkness. Maybe some monks somewhere (though they often curtail their sleep and use caffeine to help them do that...).

With luck, the newer interest in impaired melatonin cycles as a root cause for metabolic syndrome might attract enough research dollars to eventually accidentally expose the link to acne, if indeed it exists. Governments are unlikely to fund acne research, but the dollars are there for figuring out why childhood obesity is increasing...

[Anonymous.Skin]

Since we're both living in Seattle, I'm drawing from your conclusions that the intensity of light isn't as significant as being exposed to a real-light environment? I haven't ever noticed a benefit from supplementing zinc oxide or zinc piccolinate (or vit d for that matter) so maybe that means I can't process it from impaired melatonin production. right now I have to be very strict on my diet to maintain clear skin so I was thinking of introducing more normal foods, getting up early in the morning and going outside for a couple of hours, and taking a melatonin pill because I won't be able to sleep until past midnight due to my job.

[Packerfan785]

What should I do in the winter, when the light is dim even outside?

[databased]

I'm drawing from your conclusions that the intensity of light isn't as significant as being exposed to a real-light environment?

These strange cells in the retina absolutely are intensity-sensitive; that is well proved. IOW, get the frequency right but not enough intensity, and they won't fire. OTOH, their sensitivity is one big hump, centered around blue. So, if you want red light to trigger them, it's going to have to be pretty damn intense, because their sensitivity isn't that good at that frequency.

The researchers who showed that "bright" light can alter your digestion didn't document exactly what the frequency spectrum of their lights were, unfortunately. But they focused on intensity. The subjects were exposed to 5,000 lux at their eye level from 7am to 3pm, and further required to spend at least 10 minutes of every 30 staring at the bulbs to ensure the effect.

I haven't ever noticed a benefit from supplementing zinc oxide or zinc piccolinate (or vit d for that matter) so maybe that means I can't process it from impaired melatonin production

My suspicion is Vitamin D is irrelevant, unless you're highly deprived (possible for modern humans not working outdors near the equator or taking >1,000IU D3 per day). In my own experience, the magic of zinc required a good melatonin surge at night (inferred by an ability to sleep long and deeply). But combined with that melatonin surge, zinc sure can help wipe out inflammation and redness, IME.

right now I have to be very strict on my diet to maintain clear skin so I was thinking of introducing more normal foods, getting up early in the morning and going outside for a couple of hours, and taking a melatonin pill because I won't be able to sleep until past midnight due to my job.

Worth a try. What is the least amount of bright light exposure that could make a difference? I wish I knew. Maybe it's possible to get all/most of the benefit with some bright light exposure just a few times per day. I sorta doubt it, and that hasn't been my experience so far, but light research has nothing to offer for that question so far, AFAICT.

[databased]

What should I do in the winter, when the light is dim even outside?

I suspect the outdoor light is still bright enough, but I work with books and computer, so I can't manage to sit outdoors in the cold and rain and still get any work done.

OTOH, I can manage to sit at my desk indoors for many hours each day, so what I'm doing is kicking up the intensity. For $10, my local Home Depot sells a crappy little 2-bulb, 4-foot, bare "shop light" fluorescent fixture. My local Fred Meyers sells a 4-foot, 40-watt Chroma 50 bulbs, hidden inside boxes labelled "Ecolux technology sunshine F40" for $8 each. So, for $26, I can hang on the wall in front of my desk almost 5,000 lumens of light angled to point right at me, such that the bare bulbs are a bit less than 4 feet from my eyeballs. I'm going to try that for a couple of weeks, and if it can't reproduce the effects I get from being outdoors all day, I'll add a second fixture to push it up to 10,000 lumens. Given that people are selling light boxes for hundreds of dollars, this seems like a much cheaper way to see if fluorescent bulbs with a decent amount of blue energy (the Chroma 50's) can do the trick.

I already had a lot of light in my office, but it was being bounced off the ceiling and definitely was not as effective as being outdoors. Hanging the 2-bulb fixture in this way so it's directly whacking me in the eyes is definitely a step up in intensity (and violates every ergonomic rule for lighting!).

In general, people selling light therapy boxes have been operating on the assumption that the point is to re-synchronize a skewed melatonin cycle with a relatively brief exposure to bright light at the right time of day. I suspect they get marginal results because the real benefit is to be in bright light all day long, both because it alters digestion so you can get enough tryptophan to make more melatonin, and keeps your pineal gland from pissing away tryptophan at a relatively low level all day long (and thereby also leaves more available in the brain for making serotonin to help you keep from being depressed).

[databased]

My new $26 "light therapy" device has passed its first test. In later years, working indoors all day has made digestion a real struggle. Even cutting out sugar and caffeine in the evening often still left me needing some kind of anti-acid if my evening meal contained beans, or was at all spicy, had significant carbs, etc. Living outdoors utterly cured that, and now my indoor lightbox seems to be producing the same effect. I've had no acid reflux at all since using the light box, and it even passed my worst-case test: eating a large spicy burrito and large Coke for supper, which is a 100% guarantee of severe gas and acid reflux when I'm living in dim indoor light. One of these days I'll break down and buy a cheap light meter and try to measure just exactly how bright it is in my office where my eyes sit. As I would expect after seeing the changes in digestion, no new acne sores either since ramping up the light intensity.

[AltaPGT]

Very interesting stuff, keep us posted.

[databased]

Before I lose it, I note this link:

http://www.omnisterra.com/botany/cp/list/cp93alld/0593.htm

which contains the claim about light intensity from fluorescent bulbs:

You can only get about 1/5 of full sunlight intensity even at one inch from the tube. At one foot distance you are down to 1/20 of full sunlight intensity, even with a 4-tube fixture.

Which would help explain why I struggle to get my office bright enough to mimic the effects of living in sunlight, since about the closest I can get my eyes to the wall-mounted fluorescent bulbs is 4 feet. I'll have to add more fixtures.

Funny, the place I find the most information about getting bright indoor light to mimic the sun is from plant growers. Every time I go to the store and buy more "sunlight" fluorescent bulbs, I keep expecting the DEA to bust down my front door with a warrant to look for marijuana plants.

[kiwi_kazoo]

hi database,

sorry if this has already been talked about in your thread and i over looked it, but i was wondering if you have looked into using reptile grow lights. this is what i used years ago when i had pet iguanas to insure they got enough UVB and UVA for proper growth.

[databased]

to insure they got enough UVB and UVA for proper growth.

I actually don't want any ultraviolet radiation, since the retinal ganglion cells that suppress melatonin don't respond to UV, so I could see no point in accelerating the breakdown of plastics in my office.

[AltaPGT]

Any updates to this? Don't mean to rush you, I know this stuff takes time.

[databased]

I now have 6 four-foot Chroma 50 fluorescent bulbs <= 4 feet from my eyes, but the extra bulbs have only been up for a couple days. I'm fairly convinced this is plenty to cause a noticeable and immediate effect on digestion (it's literally better than Beano!), but too soon to say if it can work as well as being outdoors in the sun. It's a bit of an effort to stay planted in the office chair 10 hours per day. I need to figure out if most of the benefit comes from bright light before/during/after a meal, or if you really need 10-12 hours to get full effect. But at the moment, I just need to try to stay in my chair and see if this is as good as sunlight in terms of letting me eat almost anything I want and still be acne-free.

It could be that part of the benefit from 12 hours of sunlight was that there was more moving around involved by being outdoors. Apart from getting tryptophan digested, it still has to get across the blood-brain barrier to get turned into melatonin by the pineal gland (though many other parts of the body, including the skin itself, can synthesize their own melatonin directly, so it can't be ruled out that tryptophan digestion is more key than pineal melatonin). The Trobriand Islanders definitely get constant "exercise" in the form of not having cars, so they have to walk and carry everywhere. Even just walking logically should at least mildly increase the amount of tryptophan crossing into the brain by increase the flow of blood (hence the # of molecules ramming into the barrier). It looks established that intense exercise too late at night will shift the pineal melatonin cycle, so that's a way exercise could make acne worse. But I haven't figured out yet what other effects of exercise on melatonin have been reproduced. All a long way of saying that if moving around were a significant part of the solution, then my sitting in front of my light bank all day would not produce the same effects as I got living outdoors, even if they were technically supplying enough intensity.