514 replies to this topic

[assassin.]

Did you have severe acne when you were in your teens/20s?

[assassin.]

Did you have severe acne when you were in your teens/20s?

[assassin.]

Did you have severe acne when you were in your teens/20s?

[databased]

Does fructose malabsorption interfere with zinc absorption (as it does with tryptophan)?

So far, the evidence suggests it does.

Did you have severe acne when you were in your teens/20s?

Of course, it seemed "severe" to me many times, but I believe it would have clinically been classified as "moderate".

[databased]

How long should it take to see definitive results?

In the presence of day-long bright light exposure to my eyes combined with full/productive sleep, digestion changes that same day (I can eat things that would otherwise give me heartburn). New acne lesions usually stop within 48 hours. YMMV.

Any ideas of where to go from here?

Questions:
What is your sleep actually like? Do you get really sleepy at bedtime and wake up without an alarm clock feeling totally alert and rested, no yawning at all? Toss and turn, or sleep like a log? With no easy way to actually measure the nocturnal melatonin surge, about all you can do is infer it from the quality of your sleep.

What supplements do you take? I'm mainly interested in the basic: B complex, zinc, selenium.

What is your activity level like? Sitting all day? Lots of walking?

Finally, what does your diet look like? What-all got eaten during the last week?

[assassin.]

Does your regimen still work for people with extremely oily skin that gushes out 24/7?

[databased]

Does your regimen still work for people with extremely oily skin that gushes out 24/7?

Who knows if it works for anybody but me? Give me a research grant and I'll find out! If the theory is close enough to right, then it should, since it assumes the lynchpin of the whole acne mechanism is the superoxide anion, not anything that relies on decreased oil production to cure. Many people with very oily skin do not have acne, as this theory would predict.

In my personal experience, having a normal melatonin cycle (dead sleepy at bedtime, awake after 9 hours of sleeping like a log, waking up totally refreshed and alert) was no miracle cure for oily skin in my case (though that's a hard thing to measure reliably, even for researchers). OTOH, a normal melatonin cycle combined with enormous dose lycopene (2 cups of tomato sauce per day) clearly creates an unmistakable reduction in oil for me, within 3-4 days. So, even in just my personal case, decreasing oil production and decreasing acne are two relatively independent phenomena. I can sort of control them independently (enormous dose lycopene does provide some decrease in acne for me, but nowhere near 100%, nor is it required for eliminating lesions).

[Axis]

What is your sleep actually like?

I get somewhat sleepy at bedtime, but it can sometimes take me 30-60min (guessing here) to actually fall asleep. I often wake up at least once during the night to go to the bathroom, but I don't turn any lights on (it isn't pitch black in the house at night so I can still find my way around). Sometimes I just wake up at night because my face feels irritated, it's an itchy feeling and it can be hard for me to fall back asleep again. I'm not using an alarm clock right now because I'm on break, but I consistently wake up between 9-11am. I would say I feel moderately "alert and rested," but sometimes I still feel somewhat tired when I wake up.

I've been using a sleep mask while trying this regimen out, but I'm not sure whether it's helping or hurting my sleep. With the mask on I often feel irritation/itchiness on my face where the mask touches it. It's also just not that comfortable. Last night I just slept without the mask, and there seemed to be a reduction in irritation. It gets somewhat light in my room before my usual wake up time though, so maybe I'll try putting a blanket over the windows to keep it dark.

So my quality of sleep could definitely be improved.

What supplements do you take?

The only supplement I take is whey protein powder (french vanilla flavor). As you can see on that page, it does have some vitamin B and zinc in it though. I've been taking about 1 scoop a day (2.75 scoops on days I work out).

What is your activity level like?

I'm generally sitting around for most of the day, except on days that I go to the gym. I've been going to the gym about 2-3 times a week at around 4pm. It consists of a 25min walk to the gym, an hour lifting weights, then 25min walk home. On these days I have a protein shake after the workout which consists of 1.75 scoops of protein and 1.5 scoops of dextrose, mixed in water.

Finally, what does your diet look like?

I'll try to give you a good outline of my diet:

Breakfast:
3 eggs (scrambled)
~2 cups of cereal (Honey Nut Cheerios or Frosted Mini-Wheats)
~2 cups of milk

Very little variation here. I think one day I ate Cocoa Krispies lol.

Lunch:
Usually this:
Peanut butter and jelly sandwich (lots of pb, less jelly)
Some tortilla chips
Granola Bar (http://www.natureval...spx?ProductId=9)

Sometimes I add a banana to that. Sometimes I replace the pb&j with sandwich meat (roast beef or ham). Sometimes I just have leftover dinner for lunch. There have been a couple days where I had a cookie after lunch.

~1 hour after lunch:
1 scoop of protein with water

After Workout (If I work out):
1 protein shake

Dinner:
There's usually more variation here, but this is what it usually comes down to:
Some kind of meat (beef, chicken, pork, sausage)
Some kind of pasta (may be with the meat, eg. spaghetti)
Some vegetables (corn, green beans, mixed vegetables)

Dinner may or may not include dairy as well (ex. lasagna (cheese)). I think I also had pizza once for dinner instead of all this. I sometimes have fast food, but I haven't had any (that I can remember) while doing this regimen (except for yesterday, when I had tacos).

~2 hours before bed:
1/2 cup of plain oatmeal w/ water
a large handful of raw almonds

Dinner and my before bed meal have been eaten in dim light conditions. It gets dark at around 5pm and I eat dinner anywhere from 5:30-6:30. I also drink water with each meal, and lots of water in general. I'm outside 15-30min before eating breakfast.

Edited by Axis, 26 December 2009 - 08:44 PM.

[assassin.]

Does your regimen still work for people with extremely oily skin that gushes out 24/7?

Who knows if it works for anybody but me? Give me a research grant and I'll find out! If the theory is close enough to right, then it should, since it assumes the lynchpin of the whole acne mechanism is the superoxide anion, not anything that relies on decreased oil production to cure. Many people with very oily skin do not have acne, as this theory would predict.

In my personal experience, having a normal melatonin cycle (dead sleepy at bedtime, awake after 9 hours of sleeping like a log, waking up totally refreshed and alert) was no miracle cure for oily skin in my case (though that's a hard thing to measure reliably, even for researchers). OTOH, a normal melatonin cycle combined with enormous dose lycopene (2 cups of tomato sauce per day) clearly creates an unmistakable reduction in oil for me, within 3-4 days. So, even in just my personal case, decreasing oil production and decreasing acne are two relatively independent phenomena. I can sort of control them independently (enormous dose lycopene does provide some decrease in acne for me, but nowhere near 100%, nor is it required for eliminating lesions).

Does the Vitamin A in tomatoes help decrease oil production?

[johnny28]

I'm vit D deficient. Good luck catching any sun in Scandinavia..

[databased]

So my quality of sleep could definitely be improved.

Obviously, this is highly imprecise, but I would guess from that description you're not getting the most optimal melatonin surge that is possible, at least.

The only supplement I take is whey protein powder (french vanilla flavor). As you can see on that page, it does have some vitamin B and zinc in it though. I've been taking about 1 scoop a day (2.75 scoops on days I work out).

There are definitely some fructans in there, though I cannot tell from the label how much exactly. I take a modest amount of whey powder, but only the completely non-flavored, non-sugared kind, and throw it into the pancake mix so i don't notice it.

I would always rather see zinc taken separately before bedtime on an empty stomach, to raise the odds it gets digested and lower the odds it interferes with anything else getting digested. I don't have to take any zinc if I'm in bright light all day; if not, though, then I take a 50mg zinc pill at night if I want to stay acne-free.

To cover other possible deficiencies relevant to acne, I would also always take a B complex pill like this one. There are a number of different brands with that exact formulation, so I suspect they all come from a single manufacturer. Multiple things in the B complex could be relevant to acne, but certainly one of them is to keep the body from burning up tryptophan to manufacture niacin (you want tryptophan to go to the brain so it can make serotonin and melatonin).

Finally, unless you munch Brazil nuts every day (in which case you have to worry about overdose!) it's hard to guess whether you get enough selenium in your diet or not. In any case, few doctors would get upset at the idea of taking 200mcg per day (make sure you're not already taking a multivitamin that has that much in it).

What is your activity level like?

That's more exercise than most people. If you can afford the pills, you might also want to swallow some alpha lipoic acid pills. I speculate they can help elevate superoxide dismutase levels (one of the key anti-acne actions of melatonin), and may work better when there's exercise going on.

Finally, what does your diet look like?

Have you ever experimented to prove to yourself whether dairy affects your acne or not? I'm agnostic on what the actual mechanism might be. If it is the sugar (lactose) in the milk that worsens acne, then it shouldn't really be any different than other sugars (e.g., bad stuff when living in dim light, tolerable when living in outdoor light). If it is a more exotic mechanism, such as beta cellulin, then dairy would just be a special case that has its own unique way of causing acne.

Just comparing your details to my experience, I would say that if I were doing what you're doing, I would expect to have to take the supplements (including the bedtime zinc) to stay clear. For example, during the holiday season, I was not sitting at my "light desk" for anywhere close to 10 hours per day, so I had to start taking zinc again (I always take the B/selenium/ALA twice a day with meals anyway, unless I'm doing some experiment).

[databased]

Does the Vitamin A in tomatoes help decrease oil production?

I doubt it (and certainly large-dose Vitamin A didn't make my skin less oily when I tried it). I assume it is the lycopene in the cooked tomatoes via complex mechanisms.

[assassin.]

How high did you go with your Vitamin A dose and how long did you maintain it?

[databased]

How high did you go with your Vitamin A dose and how long did you maintain it?

That was a long time ago, but I believe I used double the NIH upper limit (10,000IU*2/day) of retinol for a month. These days, I wouldn't have even run that experiment for 2 weeks. Because I can start and stop new lesions at will within about 48 hours, I find it hard to give any credence to "treatments" that claim to require months or even just weeks to produce an effect. Of course, there's always the exception. Vitamin D has well-documented slow pharmokinetics; you really do have to wait 3 months to see what the serum level has settled at after you switch to a new dose, if it's a big change.

[assassin.]

Have you ever considered taking isotretinoin?

[DireStraits]

Have you ever considered taking isotretinoin?

On that note,
databased what medications have you used to treat your acne in your past and how did it go?
(Im assuming you have)
just curious

[Brahms]

I've been trying to follow this regimen, but one of the hard parts is avoiding artificial light late in the evening. Call me a nerd, but I've discovered that listening to books on tape (or CD) in the dark before going to bed solves that problem...

Also, I got some 100 watt equivalent compact fluorescent bulbs that are supposed to have a daylight spectrum, and put them in a tree lamp next to my desk. These light bulbs ARE bright - obviously not as effective as what Databased has got, but hopefully does something.

[Axis]

Have you ever experimented to prove to yourself whether dairy affects your acne or not?

No, I haven't. I personally wouldn't want to go without it, but it's something I'll try if nothing else works.

Just comparing your details to my experience, I would say that if I were doing what you're doing, I would expect to have to take the supplements (including the bedtime zinc) to stay clear.

That's unfortunate. I don't like the idea of taking even moderately large amounts of zinc to stay clear because of the negative health effects that may have.

I wish I could just get the 12 hours of being outside, but that's simply impossible at this time of year (I wouldn't even be getting 10 hours if I got up at sunrise and stayed outside until sunset XD), and my lifestyle just isn't conducive to it. Unfortunately, it's only going to get worse when I'm back at college instead of on break, because at the very least I'll be spending a few hours each day in class. It's funny how my situation is consistent with your theory though

I think I'll hold off on any further testing until the hours of daylight are more favorable and I have more time again (which will probably be summer break). In the meantime, I think I'll give Dan's regimen another try. It actually worked for me before, but just made my face too red and irritated. Your regimen is demanding though! It makes Dan's regimen look easy by comparison

[databased]

Have you ever considered taking isotretinoin?

On that note, databased what medications have you used to treat your acne in your past and how did it go? (Im assuming you have) just curious

Nope, no drugs. Tried various OTC things of course, more than I can remember (BP, tea tree oil, other nasty things). After some years, I concluded: "these things are making me spend lots of time poking and irritating my skin, which already hurts quite enough, thank you." Combined with the fact that, like most people, I could watch the symptoms fluctuate wildly according to factors I couldn't figure out (but now believe I have), and I gave up on all that stuff a long time ago.

After carefully preserving my liver for years by not drinking, I decided I wasn't going to risk it on Accutane (not that that might not be the right decision for other people).

Your regimen is demanding though!

Unfortunately true. On the plus side, it neatly explains why the Trobriand Islanders have zero acne, and most people in civilized society have at least some acne. The "demanding" part of the regimen is simply the only way the Islanders know how to live.

If money is no object, you might want to try the Big Bag of Pills approach. I've been running this experiment for about a week. Too soon to get excited, but I will say I am cautiously optimistic that it is possible to elevate ZSOD levels enough to treat acne by just slamming down enough of the right pills (in lieu of knowing which pills are "right", I'm of course "throwing the book at it").

[Clen]

I live in a climate where there are perhaps 5-6 hours of daylight during winter (and the temperature is cold and the air is dry).

I've had acne for 15 years.

Summers on the other hand have 18-19 hours of daylight.

I have horrible cystic acne during winters and mild acne with a couple of whiteheads on my face at a time during summer.

I've been completely acne free for my time on Accutane.

And twice more in my life. a) two months when I was 16 and spent this time cycling around Scotland - no makeup, a lot of exercise, exposure to sunlight and rain and sleeping according to the pattern of day and night, in a tent, so no artificial light during nighttime. I got absolutely and completely clear. And when I returned to my regular life, my acne came back.

b) 3 months in India. Hiking around in sunlight, eating everything that was there and no makeup.

First I thought it was the no makeup and did not use makeup at home either. Didn't make a difference. A healthy diet has not made a difference either. Exercise - no difference.

So my conclusion - if I had the money to hike around the world all year long, I'd be acne free all year long...