76 replies to this topic

[Denise2]

Locnar; you can make fun of Keats and myself all you want but we are the ones who are clear and in good health, right?

[Nico]

Locnar; you can make fun of Keats and myself all you want but we are the ones who are clear and in good health, right?

Hey don't forget about me, I'm clearing up too
There are so many things that I could refute in his stupid posts, too bad I don't feel my English is good enough.

[Denise2]

Nico...your English is just fine. We can't leave out jc, either.

[Nico]

Yeah I know my English is ok but I can't explain really long or complicated things when I need to elaborate.
Anyway the only thing I can say for now, is that it seems clear that those bozos are f*cking blind and close minded.

[Locnar]

I'm not here to make fun of you, I'm here to point out the gaps in your logic. Such as, assuming that I'm not clear or in good health.

I'll go over this one more time.

You're acne has cleared since last september. There are at least two variables that could be causing the clearing (in fact probably more), Retin A and time. In order to establish that these variables aren't causing the clearing, and not "liver flushes" you'd have to do a controlled study. No one has to prove your "liver flushes" don't work. The burden of proof is on you to prove that they do. So far, NO ONE has done so.

These are facts. So come on, dazzle me and refute these facts. You will not, can not get around one fact:

Correleation does not equal causation. The presence of two phenomenon together does not mean that one is causing the other, especially with other confounding phenomenon.

Come on, refute that. I'm waiting.

[Nico]

What the hell are you talking about stupid. I'm not using anything on my skin. I don't even wash it except when I'm in the shower.
And no cystic ane doesn't just go away like that.
You're blind and you're the one making up bullshit stories about what else it "could" be but you do NOT clear the kind of acne we had with Retin A (wich I'M NOT USING because topicals simply dO NOT WORK) and if it was just time it wouldve started fading a long time ago to be at the level it is now. It doesn't go away just like that in such a little amount of time except in your little fantasy magical dream world.
You're the one who's making up bullshit stories like "0h wel m4yb3 teh stpnz r jist harduned ol1v3 oil1!!11!". So please mr bullshitty the bullshitting troll, just go post your bullshit elsewhere unless you want to keep looking stupid.

[Denise2]

Nico, I think Locnar was talking to me.

Well, I had acne since age 11, I'm 39, and am clear consistantly for the first time in my life.

Locnar, you really sound like an immature person. In all honestly, you have no clue what you are talking about and we know our bodies. I do feel sorry for you though because you sound very ill-informed and ignorant. I have gone for weeks without Retin A use because I'm treating my scars through tca cross mostly, but have also had needling done. And I don't start breaking out if I don't use it. Retin A doesn't seem to effect me for the good or bad as far as breakouts go, but I think it probably helps minor scars and red marks a bit. READ THE TCA CROSS THREAD IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME. And to be honest, since I've used the strongest peels known to man and they didn't clear me, then it's obvious Retin A wouldn't either (since they are about a gazillion times stronger than Retin A). DUH.

All of you people who have no life experience and put all your faith in dermatologists will pay a price one day, you can be sure of that. Particularly if you are on antibiotics long term. You are so willing to put your life and skin in the hands of doctors who don't even understand that diet effects acne, that long-term antibiotic use is the height of irresponsible treatment and can cause great harm because of the prolifiration of candida, and that the liver is the organ that helps skin stay clear. I mean...good grief.

Good luck, you'll need it.

[tennisfreek]

Ok, i dont really want to jump into the fire, but here goes.
I recently went to a doctor to get medication for my (probably hormonal) moderate acne which has been consistent for about a year. i have some cysts all the time, so my acne qualifies as "cystic". I was prescibed retin-a and tetracycline, stuff that denis2 claims is poisonous. i partly agree. i consider myself skeptical and intelligent, and know about the body somewhat (i have taken human anatomy and physiology, as well as numerous other related natural science courses). So naturally i am a skeptic when unsubstantiated claims about lvier flushes abound. i am skeptical but open- minded. these flushes could have cured denise. ill never know.
dan's regimen hasnt cleared me, and i cannot take retin-a right now (too much sun exposure) so i will try to "flush" my body. this will allay my curosities and suspicions about these claims. i have not taken prescription acne medication yet, so there cannot be a claim that it was the accutane/retin-a kicking in. i will report back after i have competed the flush, immediate results, and some time after the flush (as no one knows what happens waaay later after a flush). the only problem is my family; i do not want people to think that i believe in this stuff (which i dont, at least not yet). denise2, can you describe the best way to flush, or direct me to some sites? i want this to be the easiest possible, as i do not want to become a raving convert even if it does cure me. thanks!
ps if anyone doesnt think iwill make a good "test subject" let me know. i think i am ideal as i have NO biases due to derm's opinions (havent been to one, yet).

[SweetJade1980]

(a moment of silence please.....)

- First of all, in defense of Allopathic Doctors (M.D.s) I personally would not prescribe something that I don't know anything about. - can work for the patient or against the patient, but it's in their best interest if they don't have a doctor that is up-to-date.

- In defense of Naturopathic Doctors - they are far more knowledgable about nutrition than any MD or DVM will ever be. Nutrition classes in medical schools, such as Harvard, are very few, and in most, are still Electives!

In regards to Accutane, it's a TEMPORARY solution. Not any different from all other solutions, except that there is this misconception that it's a wonder drug that you take for a small period of time, stop, and all your problems are gone. Now, just like almost everything else you do on these boards, most will be continued for the rest of your life. Accutane, as was stated by the manufacturer, Roche, it's antiandrogenic effects will cease once the medication has stopped. Therefore, the effects can last from several months --- several years if you're lucky, but IF you truly have a hormonal imbalance (beyond puberty), then your acne will come back one day. There's quite a few people around here that have been on up to 6 treatments over the years, and they still have acne.

Herbs, Vitamins, Dietary Supplements, and the various components of foods are documented. Although, not every possible aspect of them has been, just as not every aspect of the human body has been discovered. Yet, if it's popular enough, there's a study and there are plenty of studies that support what has worked for ALL of us on these boards:

http://www.pubmed.com
http://www.herbmed.com


Locnar, I love your drive, but you are excluding some variables and some facts:

1. RetinA - it has been used for several years prior and NEVER worked for Denise, myself, and others. It helps, but it didn't prevent a percentage of us from continually breaking out while using it.

2. Time - very good variable. The best way to test this is to stop using medications you know that help (retina didn't work before, why would it work now?), eat loads of "regular" food and stop the liver flushes. Oh and getting some hormone, allergy, and intolerance tests would also be good too. Of course, if it was time, then these wouldn't affect it. Then again, she's already done the liver flushes so, it may take a very LOONG time to get to such a toxic state. So this is a variable in study that probably wouldn't work for Denise, but perhaps others.

3. Parasites - this is supposed to be the 2nd step (after changing diet) in the cleansing process (followed by Liver Flush). Now people have found parasites while they were doing their liver flushes also, but anyone that travels frequently out of the country, swims in lakes, ponds, eats undercooked meat, water vegetables, or has pets, probably has parasites. They are not just for those in the third world countries. You don't always have to be sick, to be unhealthy (if that makes sense). Sometimes parasites just live off of you, without any intentional harm to you, but they are still taking away your nutrients.One of the things that I remember from my Animal Behavior class (loved that class) was that birds that had parasites, were much smaller, weaker, sicker, had poor looking feathers, and were not as brightly colored as the birds that didn't have parasites.

Other countries consistently rely on various methods for naturally or medicinally eliminating parasites, yet those in the U.S. rarely do, despite the knowledge that we do have parasites and have had controlled outbreaks in the past. You can't always see them when you flush, some are microscopic, and others aren't. One way to test this is to have your feces examined. I had this done over a year ago due to some IBS problem (I just needed more fiber) and it came out negative (I dont' know parasites they were looking for though). Of course, it depends on that particular parasites life cycle in the human body, but for some, if they aren't dead, they probably won't flush (eggs might).

4. Liver Flushes - This is just a double blind experimental study waiting to happen. We already know it's possible to flush the liver of stones through the use of electricity, but can we do it through the use of oil, acid, and salt....?

Well many people around here say we can. So far this is all pseudoscience until a study has been done on it, right? Since that hasn't happened yet, you can do a case study and see what people are saying. I'm not a survey fan, but based on those members that have tried this, there was no other possible explanation. They didn't alter anything else in their diets (for the better), didn't start a new prescription, etc. All they did was follow the liver flushing and cleansing procedures. Of course, those vary too. So you can develop quite a few studies from this based on the variables of that alone, but the ingredients are still the same, oil, citrus & fruit acid, and salt.

Assuming that no one here is lying (why???? there's no money to be made from this) and that their past histories are accurate, how else do you explain their results? If RetinA didn't do it, Allergy medicine didn't do it, MS meds didn't help, Anti-androgens or DHT inhibitor didn't do it, for some a changes in their diet didn't wasn't enough, changing their sheets didnt do it, bottled water didn't do it, and using all natural detergeants didn't fix it, then what else could it be?

I think most people, particularly after a certain age, are smart enough to realize that if they moved into a new house, changed schools, different work environment, moved to a new city or state, etc that those could all be factors too. So based on what they've given us, there's no other variables left.

Seriously, if you want a study done on this, why don't you start one yourself. There's plenty of people here that haven't done a flush that plan on it. There's a thread on healthboards where a group of them are working up to doing a flush (taking the cleansing herbs first) you could interview them.
http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=146886
or
http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=160291

True, it won't be a controlled study, but it will be the closest thing you've got to an effectiveness study, and in the real world, that's what counts more. IF the results are in the liver flushes & cleanses favor (since most do these together), then you can get grant money and do a controlled study just to confirm and eliminate other factors.

***Please take note, it's rare if anyone is cured after 1 flush. Most notice some results around the 2nd or 3rd. flush. So you want a controlled study that is done short term for 1 - 2 months (2 - 4 flushes). Then a long term study where you monitor them for 6 months or longer (around 6 - 12 flushes).

I hope that gives you some more stuff to ponder ;-)


Take care all

[thebignosebandit]

denise i respect that you are a long time survivor of severe acne, u probably have more acne experience than a lot of people on this board.

BUT

i still don't agree with your liver flush theories because theoretically it is impossible for them to work.

on the other hand, u being nearly 40 years old, and having acne since you were 11, gives u a lot of experience with the problem. 30 years experience.

im 19, with mild acne, that has gone on off and on for the past 2 years.

im glad that u are clear, but i will stick to my regimen, and u can stick to yours.

no i dont think u are stupid or ignorant for doing what u do, i still don't agree with what you do, but i'll leave it at that.

take care.

[tennisfreek]

Guys, i think a controlled study would be very good idea. Just me trying a liver flush aint gonna convince the skeptics or the converts, either way. Maybe someone could organize one, as just looking at the lsit of ingredients is exausting enough for me (bentonite clay is cat litter, which has caused some severe blockages of peoples intestines . . .). I read the definitive guide to liver flushing (ie jc's post) and frankly i am more skeptical than before. coffee enemas? i am SURE that nutrition affects acne (eating healthier= healthier body) but frankly some of the things do not sound . . . logical.

[jc]

Coffee enemas as part of a cancer study: http://www.healingdaily.com/liver-detoxifi...mas-article.htm

Have been done for 100 years: http://www.springboard4health.com/notebook...ffee_enema.html

Coffee for detoxification: http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/coffeeenemas.html
http://www.healingdaily.com/liver-detoxifi...offee-enema.htm

Why it works: http://www.ineedcoffee.com/01/01/enema/

If you do a search for it, you'll find TONS on it.

[SweetJade1980]

Tennisfreak,
LOL some of us did a cleanse or a flush without all of that preparation. I'm planning on doing another liver flush probably this weekend. Everyone at my house will be home in case something goes wrong and I'll let you know what happens. The only thing I will be doing differently from my 1st flush (nearly 2 years ago) is that I will be eating regularly prior to the day of flush, consuming fiber supplements (psyllium or glucomannon) the day after to avoid detox effects. I didn't experience any last time, but the clearer your skin gets (99%), the more you DON'T want to mess it up ;-)

As for the bentonite clay, this is a natural detoxifier. Animals and humans in other cultures know how to deal with toxins. They either consume the clay after ingesting toxic foods or bake their foods in the clay so it can absorb the toxins. however, there is always too much of a good thing. No plaster folks.

Definately read up and pick one that suits you best. I personally used 100% pink grapefruit juice with the EVO and used 100% Apple Juice with the Epsom Salts. Nothing tasted horrible.

Be safe, be smart

[jc]

Epsoms and apple juice!!!!!!!!

[SweetJade1980]

LOL, why the face JC?

Almost everyone has been complaining about how horrible epsom salts taste, but I didnt' have that problem. The only difference was I used Apple Juice while others used Lemon juice. You be judge

[jc]

Will this explain how I personally feel about epsoms?

You're a superwoman SJ!

[jc]

You've done flushes Tracy!?!!? lol I didn't even know that! Here's to your good health!

[jc]

Yay!!! We've suckered another person into falling for this hoax!!

Muahahahaa....muahahaaha...muaahaha..... I'm going to make meeeeeeeeellions!!!