76 replies to this topic

[thebignosebandit]

OK many people swear they "flush" out gallstones in a liver flush, but several sources have told me these are not real gallstones, rather a product of the olive oil.......after the facts that were told, it seems highly unlikely that someone can push out 100's of stones........im beggining to think this liver flush is purely a hoax......the only way we can find out is if anyone here brings there "stones" to someone who can test them and find out the real contents of what they are......i just asked my doc about it and he said it was impossible.

also, curezone.com is some bullsh*t. there whole theory on why docs don't believe in liver flushs is based on a "conspiracy" to cover up a cure so that pharamacies can make money.........i think we can all agree that curezon.com just lost all their credibility in that statement right there, that is ridiculous.

until then i dont know what to say about these flushes.

[Nico]

i just asked my doc about it and he said it was impossible.

Yeah but doctors say a lot of things that arent true also...

there whole theory on why docs don't believe in liver flushs is based on a "conspiracy" to cover up a cure so that pharamacies can make money.........

I don't t think that's the reason though... although it IS true with dermatologists (they prescribe you non-working stuff so that you come back to see them again). But some doctors are really good and (think they) know what they're doing.
You know, I asked my mother (a doctor) about colonics when I was constipated and she told me they did nothing good and they could be harmfull... well, I went ahead and got one anyway, and everything went perfectly fine, I wasn't constipated anymore. So don't beleive all doctors say... just because that's what they learned at school or in their books, doesn't mean it's true.

Also if I remember correctly, someone said he got his stones analyzed and they were 95% cholesterol, wich isn't the case with olive oil...
Well anyway I'll keep doing them anyway since they're not dangerous (the stuff you need to drink is REALLY disgusting though), at worst they'll do nothing.

[jc]

If you don't believe in it TBNB, then don't do it! Simple is that!

[Denise2]

I assume you already read this and decided to waste space anyway, but this is what I told BBB:

No offense but I don't think people are really all that concerned about your opinion. So many people have cured their acne through liver and bowel cleansing that your opinion is redundant and unimportant.

I have used safflower oil, number 1 (definately NOT GREEN, BUT ALMOST *CLEAR*).

Number 2, no one can explain how and why olive oil eventually stops producing coagulated thingie whatevers. Many people do flushes that don't produce stones. Skeptics like yourself have no explanation for that at all.

Number 3, there are lab reports that show calcified stones were passed through flushing. http://www.angelhealingcenter.com/GallstonePictures.html

Number 4, a gentlemen posting at Curezone right now had an ultrasound before he flushed and after he flushed. There were many missing stones after he flushed. What happened? They disappeared into thin air?

Number 5, the autopsy argument doesn't impress me much because most people who die don't have autopsies.

Denise2 Posted: May 24 2004, 07:56 AM


Site Admin


Group: Members
Posts: 617
Member No.: 2225
Joined: 18-May 03



Oh yeah, another great link for you: http://curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=73&i=499

Feel free to provide a sensible refuation for everything contained in this thread. Please note all the detailed information on saponification, the studies, and also the doctor who notes that this therapy is used in the east under a doctor's supervision quite frequently. It is also used in Russia.

[thebignosebandit]

i think people here really underestimate medical knowledge that doctors possess. a dermatoligics and doctors in general aren't just your average joe who got a degree overnight, they understand medicine and health on a huge spectrum. i mean medical school is nearly 10 years long, and for you guys to call them liars, people who prescribe the wrong medicine so you come back so that pharmacies can make money, is absolutely ridiculous.....

STILL, none of you have even attempted to answer my request, take your "stones" to get tested of there contents to determine what they really are. that is all.

[Nico]

i think people here really underestimate medical knowledge that doctors possess

Yeah maybe but they sometimes say really stupid things though. Like when they talk about colonics, and when they talk about food ans acne...

[Denise2]

I can easily dispute the saponification BS in that thread with my background in chemical engineering. It cites that "liver stones" produced are not just olive oil soap because of several reasons. One of these, that the body isn't hot enough to produce this type of reaction, is complete BS. I've mass produced a soap cleanser for a biochemical organization, a soap of palm and olive oil, at a temperature of 80 degrees F.

Beyond this, the site claims that olive oil soap is liquid and would dissolve in the body. Seeing first hand that the body can very well dry out compounds, this is very untrue. Beyond this, olive oil soap, in fact, does NOT dissolve in water as easily as the site claims. Olive oil soap takes on a degree of hydrophobia as an oil and, if fully reacted, clumps and does not dissolve easily; it can take hours to dissolve a small amount of olive oil soap if the reaction is carried through.

Finally, this reaction can take place, under the right conditions, within 20 minutes and can solidify within hours; not days like the site claims. They cite a recipe that could probably produce over 800 grams of soap; the body doesn't work like that.

LOL. And how do I know that you have a background in chemical engineering? I havn't yet found a soap making method or saponification method that doesn't require high heat. And besides that, I havn't yet found a soap recipe whereby the soap hardened in a few minutes. Many people pass stones not long after they take the oil mixture; sometimes in the middle of the night.

One other thing. I see you and your background in chemical engineering didn't answer the pictures, the lab report, and the fact that a man who is currently posting at Curezone right now had an ultrasound done before AND AFTER he flushed, proving that the stones he flushed were indeed gone. Those are much tougher to explain, ay?

One other thing....people have flushed out stones with NO OLIVE or any other kind of OIL. How do you explain that?

But this is all really fun.

One more thing....if you don't wanna do the flush, then don't do it!

[thebignosebandit]

reasons why it appears this flush is a hoax:

1. the entire medical community laughs at it, including doctors and pharmacists.

2. my biology professor laughed at it.

3. curezone.com makes a ridiculous assumption that the medical community feels it doesn't work because they are money hungry and prescribe the wrong medicines for acne to make more money.

4. the only people for it are the wacky heads over at curezone.com and average people on this forum who really have no extensive medical knowledge at all.

5. it is theoretically impossible for the body to flush out 100's of real stones through this method.

6. it shocks me that no one here has actually brought their stones to get tested if they feel in it so strongly, very shocking to me.

7. when asked if it is true, the pro flush arguer always uses circular reasoning. "doctors lie," "my acne is gone" "a man got scanned for less stones" or my favorite "u don't have to do it if u don't want to!" if u really wanted to prove your point then get your stones tested!

8. more than likely those little green stones you pass in your toilet is the accumulation of oilive oil, not stones.

9. when acne gets bad, people get desperate, this is desperate, people will believe anything as long as it brings some kind of hope. *sigh*

10. this flush method is merely a hoax, like santa clause, the exact ingredients are purposely made for the olive oil to produce green stones when we pass, fooling one into believing he magically did something that doctors and the entire medical field deme impossible, flush real stones.

......sorry for being an asshole.......but reality is a bitch.

[Denise2]

Still can't refute one thing I said except with sarcasm and mocking. And you are laughing at us?! <_< :blink:

Keep yer acne, we will all stay clear.

p.s.....did you note that I use safflower oil, which is clear and not green. Oh! That's part of my imagination too. Gotcha!

So those little clumpy thing stop passing why? And they are sometimes big, somtimes small, sometimes a couple of inches and are white, black, and tan because of what? That green olive oil?!

Yer pretty funny...I'll give you that. You write a list and still don't provide one sensible refutation except for someone else told you it was wrong. Well duh....keep trusting your derm to keep you clear and we will all STAY CLEAR.

[jc]

thebignosebandit...you bring up some very good points. It really does make one think long and hard about the reality that is our skin, liver flushing, and who to place our utmost trust in. I suppose that from here on in, it is all very biased and subjective.

It's all about those who have tried it vs. those who haven't tried it. Also, those who trust doctors implicitly vs. those who don't. (I realize that your mom is an MD...lol)

I would really love to get my stones tested some day. And I think, those who have gotten out white, red, and tan stones should really get those calcified ones tested too! I just don't know where to go, or whom to trust. In general, I'm satisfied to believe (in my own little world) that it has helped me greatly. As it has helped Denise and many others.

Like the old saying goes, "Don't knock it till ya try it!"

[Monkeypie]

I've never done my own liver-flush, so I can't say if it works for me or not, but what difference does it make to you if other people are doing it? This is what I don't understand.

It's not like it's killing babies or something. It affects no one but the person trying it. And... it doesn't work for everyone. But you should be happy that the people who have had success with it have found something that works. If these "crazy" people want to believe that they are passing liver stones, then why not? Their skin is clear and they are happy. Why not let them have it and share what they've learned. No one said it was a cure and no one said it works for everyone, but this site is about sharing experiences and helping each other. It's not like they're telling people to shoot herion into their eyes. (Which doesn't work to clear acne, by the way.)

[thebignosebandit]

denise2 i don't want to turn this into an argument. the way i see it, i have acne, and so do you, so lets fight acne, not each other.

i respect that you are clear now, that is great news. i am always happy when someone who's had acne can turn out clear. however, we both do not agree with what cleared you, you say it was the flush, i say it wasn't.

however in the end, you are clear, and im sure your happy about that, and im happy for you.

when you say "keep your acne" i take it negatively. i think we all have a mutual desire to all become clear, so comments like that suck. anyways, from my personal standpoint my path to clear skin will be accutane once my derm decides to prescribe it to me. you have found your way, and i am finding mine, i respect yours, respect mines.

i am currently writing a research paper on acne and diet, and i wanted to include these flush journals as a source to how diet does effect acne. however, as i researched more and more, i came to my own personal conclusion that this liver flush curezone is promoting is theoretically impossible, and the many arguments you all are using is just circular reasoning. the only realy way one can conlclude whether this flush works and simultaneously defy the general medical public is by taking there actual stones and getting them tested. none of this color nonsense. the fact that curezone neglected to provide information on what the contents of the actual stones were when flushed indicated to me that its credibility is low.

therefore, due to its lack of reasoning, support, and evidence, i decided that the liver flush theory was null and void and in the end is not going to make it to my paper.

however, this is not to say i am against the idea that diet has an effect on acne. i am looking more and more into the effects of a congested liver. as we all know the liver controls some of our hormones, and a congested liver may have an adverse effect on the liver. i am taking this into account.

in my paper, my underlying theory is that everyone is different, and it is possible that diet can effect acne, and it is possible that it doesn't.

oh and jc my mom is not an MD, i don't know where you got that info........

[jc]

Oops...I got you mixed up with blackbirdbeatle then...my mistake.

Here is a good post by SJ1980 by an MD on liver detoxification. You should really take a look at it: http://www.liverdoctor.com/02_liverdetox.asp

[Denise2]

Bandit: No one is fighting with you. I merely responded to your assertions. No one did the flush because they were following the crowd. I had other very serious health problems (including symptoms of multiple schlerosis and severe chemical allergies) which are now totally gone since I flushed my liver and cleansed my bowel.

I don't trust dermatologists because they obviously don't know what the heck they are doing. If they did, they wouldn't continue to put people on antibiotics indefinately without probiotic supplementation, and they wouldn't rule out things like diet (which they still to this day, many of them, INSIST is NOT a factor in acne).

Hey, if you wanna put your trust in THAT....no problem.

[thebignosebandit]

denise i trust my dermatologist more than anyone on this forum, including you.
this forum is a great source for looking into personal methods and experiences with acne, but it is also a great source for ridiculous theories, i stand back and take my opinion, however my dermatologists opinion remains the most important to me.
i definatlely trust my dermatologist more than anyone behind curezone.

i have never met you, nor do i even know anything about you, but i am still confident in saying that my dermatologist has a broader spectrum of knowledge on skin care and the human body as a whole than you.

my dermatologist has treated 1000's of patients over a course of 16 years.

his opinion on diet and acne is that it is indeed possible, however, no medical study has proven it. he decides to stay neutral. you see doctors will not agree with a theory until it has been proven. even though i believe acne has to do with diet, i cannot conclude it as a FACT because it has not been proven yet, therefore it is still a theory in study. this is why the medical field does not state diet has an effect on acne.

so please don't attack dermatologists, because it really weakens your argument. derms aren't just your average joe who put on white lab coats and write prescriptions for accutane all day.

[jc]

Medical studies are not the be all end all to everything we should believe in though. Just because there hasn't been a study to prove it, doesn't mean that it's the way it is. Medical studies have been refuted and denounced many times over.

Just remember that doctors and dermatologists, while extremely knowledgable, are not infallible either.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/05/cnna.med.mistakes/

It's best to use our own judgement. Seeing is believing.

[Denise2]

No offense but I'll state my opinion if I want. I went to the best dermatologist in Richmond, Va.; all that happened to me was extreme liver toxicity from being on antibiotics for 11 years straight.

Again....dermatologists always told me that food didn't cause acne, and not to mention, they never understood the root of MY ACNE.

If you don't like the fact, that's your business. Many of us who almost had our bodies destroyed by irresponsible dermatologists will continue to speak out. Not to mention the money I've spent on microderm, a tca peel, loads of glycolic and lactic acid peels (NONE of which were covered by insurance).

So until you suffer from crippling joint pain and severe candida overgrowth due to antibiotic abuse that caused a plethora of other health problems, please don't lecture me about how great dermatologists are. You are more than naive if you believe that most of them as knowledgable as those of us who have cured out acne without their help. It's obvious they AREN'T. Good grief! Derms still keep people on antibiotics indefinately! That's RETARDED knowing what we know about candida, colitis, diverticulitis, Crohn's Disease, etc......ALL of those diseases are caused by the microflora in the gut becoming severely impaired and imbalanced. No one is saying that dermatologists are evil, but good grief, even the famous Dr. Perricone wrote a whole book about how acne can be controlled through diet.

The only reason I even go to my dermatologist now is for a Retin A prescription, but I certainly didn't look to him to "cure" or "control" my acne.

The medical profession should be respected for their trauma and acute care, not for "curing" diseases. That's not what they are trained to do. They aren't trained to understand the root causes of diseases, they are trained to TREAT them with surgical removal or prescription meds. And if you don't understand that, that's your issue, not mine. Since I've struggled with acne for probably 15-20 more years longer than you have, I think I know what I'm talking about.

[Nico]

Many of us who almost had our bodies destroyed by irresponsible dermatologists will continue to speak out.

Yeah, 4 treatments of accutane can't have been good for me :o
Now that I think of it, all my dematologists ever did was make my skin (and health) worse...

[thebignosebandit]

i never ever stated that my dermatologist was the tell all end all solution to acne. i never put him on a pedestal of ungodly proportions. i was only stating that you cannot refute dermatologist opinions as they are far more trained and knowledgable than either of you.

however, i do know that derms and the medical field in general are capable of making mistakes and misinforming the masses, however i will trust there opinion over yours and this is my personal choice.

the liver flush theory, when analyzed scientifically and theoretically, is a hoax.

if it cleared you, it has absolutely no medical explanation why it did, but if your walking around with a clear face it really doesnt matter.

anyways, you cannot just make the assumption that the medical fields sole purpose is to treat problems. extensive research is always done on what is causes the problem and how to cure it.

i still believe that those green stones are not the stones you think they are, because it is theoretically impossible for that to occur. absolutely no established medical position has backed your theory, and all your support rests on personal testament.

many of you may think i may be putting docs on a pedestal that makes them appear to be more knowledgable than the rest, but this is only partly true.
i believe that no one knows our own bodies on a personal level more than us. a personal can go through 10 years of schooling and read hundreds of books and still not know your body on a personal level more than you do. i give you that, but you must acknowledge that the medical community knows a thing or two about acne.

[Denise2]

http://www.dr-schnitzer.de/acne.html

www.sensiblehealth.com

If you want to undersand HOW and WHY bowel and liver cleansing clears up a person, it's all explained in these two sites; one deals with the liver, the other deals with bacteria in the lower bowel.

Julia Chang is a biochemist who has done a tremendous job at explaining the liver's function.

As for the flush being a "hoax". Well guess what? I'm from Mars. Does the fact that I keep insisting I'm from Mars make it true?

You havn't explained one single objection I've raised. Matter of fact, you havn't even attempted to. All you do is chant your mantra and talk about what other people have said. You cannot explain why people stop passing stones. You can't explain why people vomit up their oil a few minutes or an hour after taking it, and then still pass stones. You can't explain why some people like myself use safflower oil, which is NOT green, and pass many colored stones (black, white, tan, and green). You can't explain how olive oil becomes hardened in the gut when it's a FACT that the only way saponification takes place is when a fat is combined wtih lye, in very succinct measurements.

There is a lot of stuff YOU cannot explain, but you keep insisting, over and over that it's a "HOAX". I mean....you guys come to this page railing and making inflammatory comments and then you cannot answer one single objection I raise, nor make a clear and concise argument as to what exactly happens in the gut that makes oil turn into balls of all shapes and sizes, at which point they eventually stop being produced. That, on it's face, doesn't even make sense logically.