65 replies to this topic

[Necromancer]

[Intelliegent post.]

not going to waste much time with this post, as you spewed idiocy in nearly every line. simple suggestion... how about pointing out why the op's logic is wrong. other than "because i said so" and capitalizing certain words. doesn't hold much weight.

in addition to dairy avoidance, a low carb diet is the single most successful dietary approach to acne. as for it being a fad, humans ate a relatively low carb diet for 2 million years. grains only appeared the last 10,000 years. and refined grains the last several hundred. that is a fad. read some of loren cordain's work if you are at all interested in acquiring knowledge to back up your opinions.

jemini - my science background is strong (nearly finsihed my phd) and the medical library on my campus has free online access to journals, so i will check out the article.

by the way, i have very little gas and do not meet all the standard fungal/bacterial overgrowth symptoms. the combination of seborrheic dermatitis and other fungal infections of the skin is what led me to believe i may have some interior fungal problems as well. i have suffered acid reflux in the past, but that is now gone. the solution, i believe, was in part due to probiotics, drinking aloe vera, avoiding a few foods (raw onions, hot peppers) and a clean diet in general low in refined carbs. having weaned myself off of my doctor's solution (duh... just take more prilosec????) and beaten that problem, i am pretty confident i will find a natural way to beat the seb derm and acne as well since they are not quite as bad.

Actually it does hold weight. Because you see, no one listens to a lazy couch potato when it comes to being a bodybuilding. No one listens to some bum on the street on how to get rich. Same thing with this. Why not listen to those that are successful and clear on acne than listen to someone's string theory who just happens to be on a bunch of medication themselves?

10,000 years? LOL, they also didn't wipe their butts, brush their teeth, and died before they were 21 years old 10,000 years ago. You lose son. Because that was as stupid as it gets.

I don't need her opinions to back up. From what I have seen in my real life experience of over 10 years, is that my face is 100% clear from my methods. I see others have theirs. The one big difference is is that they are still taking a bunch of crap, I am doing nothing but my method.

He's mentioning his own plan of action, he's not really saying antibiotics should be "taken like cereal". You're saying probiotics are bad because they interfere with the natural balance of bacteria? Well what if you already took antibiotics and potentially killed off the good stuff? You say that killing the good bacteria has nothing to do with the harmful effects antibiotics can have, rather it's the antibiotics actually screwing up the natural flow of things that leads to overgrowths such as candida? Is this a theory you have? I've never heard anything like that. Taking probiotics while on a course of antibiotics has been proven to reduce potential side effects...if this has been proven then wouldn't that disprove your whole statement about screwing up the natural defenses of the body?

Trust me, the only time to use antibiotics is when it is life threatening or some serious issues like surgery complications or severe illness. That is why any sane doctor will not give them out unless necessary.

Probiotics are less harmful but also manipulate the bacteria systems that naturally go on in the body.

These aren't theories. There is tons of facts that back up this. It just won't be related to acne but antibiotics are antibiotics.

I had to take antibiotics when I was young for strep a couple times. If it is the case that I've upset the balance of my systems, what do you suggest I do? Are you saying I'm permanently screwed up now? I'd rather stick with these guys if you are, cause at least they believe (as do I) that there are ways to work towards correcting this imbalance.

No one can decide that. The human body is a smart machine and will always attempt to reach equilibrium so it operates most efficiently.

[AniMuS]

Anyone here a doctor? Sometimes people think they know, but they don't because things are more complicated than they appear at surface. So whoever here hasn't studied at least 5 years of medicine, i'd say for them not to make affirmations they are not qualified to make.

I'm sorry for being so harsh, but i've almost been misled before by pseudo-science, if only it wasn't for my strong knowledge of how to do real science. So i'm sure a lot of people that know less, may very likely be misled, and that is really unfair, because they are trusting someone that shouldn't be trusted since they have no qualifications to speak about the theme being dealt with.

For the theory to get any credibility, i suggest you get all your facts together, and publish it on a well known science journal to make it acessible for other scientists to critize and review it.

[Necromancer]

Anyone here a doctor? Sometimes people think they know, but they don't because things are more complicated than they appear at surface. So whoever here hasn't studied at least 5 years of medicine, i'd say for them not to make affirmations they are not qualified to make.

I'm sorry for being so harsh, but i've almost been misled before by pseudo-science, if only it wasn't for my strong knowledge of how to do real science. So i'm sure a lot of people that know less, may very likely be misled, and that is really unfair, because they are trusting someone that shouldn't be trusted since they have no qualifications to speak about the theme being dealt with.

For the theory to get any credibility, i suggest you get all your facts together, and publish it on a well known science journal to make it acessible for other scientists to critize and review it.

Oh yeah I forgot doctors really know how to treat acne well. Look at all the faces of people in here that visit the dermatologist all the time. Get serious. Acne is about experience and not what some nerd who read books and took stupid tests for 5-10 years post grad did.

It's like you can listen to me and get free bodybuilding advice that will work with real results in a month or you can pay someone with a 'certificate' to tell you how to work out and never get anywhere.

Get serious.

[jemini]

Wow, no need to get pissy about it. I never told be to take antibiotics, only that I would. And I never said derm methods don't work. They do for most people. But for people like me who have tried everything, including accutane twice at 23 years of age, with moderate acne and seborrhea, and positive skin improvements with dietary changes, hours of countless research through medical journals and coming to my own conclusions (I recommend everyone do their own research so they can come up with their own conclusions).

Necromancer, obviously you have never taken a human anthropology course. Most indigenous cultures who eat a diet of meat, natural fruit and vegetables live long healthy lives free of most diseases. They get wiped out when white people (or some other foreign culture) comes and gives them new diseases and/or enslaves them. You seem to be confusing traditional man with images of cave paintings and neanderthals. While indigenous tribes may not be the sharpest tools in the shed, their bodies have adapted to the diet they have been living off four countless thousands of years. Another point I would like to make. Supplementing with probiotics is not dangerous unless SEVERELY immunocomprimised. I did a report on Lactobacillus acidophilus back in my undergrad. No fatalities, and only found in the bloodstream of bodies how had other SEVERE systemic infections and were going to die anyway. No, we don't lose son.You sir, are an ignorant asshole who likes to get on a high horse and discuss bodybuilding to sound cool on an acne messageboard. I body build too. You are NOT cool because you lift weights. Don't you see the lack of logic in your own arguement? Trust doctors, but don't listen to my advice. But listen to you for bodybuilding, and don't listen to the specialists? How is that any different? How are you qualified to teach someone how to bodybuild, more than someone specifically trained? Probably that you found something that works for you and would mostly work for everyone else. I have found methods which have accomplished the same and merely trying to spread what methods me and others like me have worked for them.

People, Animus is right in that none of us are doctors. But this is a theory with a great deal of evidence to support it if you can take the time to look into it. There is no risk in keeping an open mind and taking some digestive enzymes. Don't take antibiotics if you fear the side effects, notice that was the last thing I recommended before taking other less risky changes. For many people, a quick visit to the derm for some Retin-A or some minocycline is a viable solution. But for those of us where Western medicine has failed us, I highly recommend that you at least CONSIDER these explanations. Why would I trust doctors completely in treating a medical condition which they themselves don't understand?

[jemini]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1795112...Pubmed_RVDocSum

A study on zincs effects on inhibiting Toll-like receptors, thus reducing imflammation. This was a topical study, but oral usage of zinc is also used to treat acne. THere is a prescription acne medication for acne called NICOMIDE, since zinc works so well for acne. Guess what, there are TONS of toll like receptors in the gut. Coincidence?

Guardians of the gut: newly appreciated role of epithelial toll-like receptors in protecting the intestine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1861996...Pubmed_RVDocSum

Immune-non immune networks in intestinal inflammation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1847376...Pubmed_RVDocSum
A review on the various mechanisms between bacteria in the gut and gastrointestinal and overall immunity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1824882...Pubmed_RVDocSum
We analyzed the gut immune stimulation induced by Gram-positive bacteria: non probiotic Lactobacillus acidophilus CRL 1462 and Lactobacillus acidophilus A9; two potentially probiotic strains: L. acidophilus CRL 924 and Lactobacillusdelbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus CRL 423; comparatively with a probiotic strain: Lactobacillus casei CRL 431. We also studied Gram-negative bacteria: Escherichia coli 129 and E. coli 13-7 in BALB/c mice. All the strains increased the number of IgA+ cells. We analyzed the cytokines IFNgamma, TNFalpha, IL-17, IL-12, IL-6 and MIP-1alpha. The Gram(+) strains increased the number of IL-10+ cells. Gram(-) strains did not increase IL-10+ cells, but they increased the number of IL-12+ cells. The probiotic strain increased mainly IFNgamma and TNFalpha. In the study of the receptors TLR-2, TLR-4 and CD-206, we demonstrated that only the probiotic strain increased the number of CD-206+ cells. All the Gram(+) strains increased the number of TLR-2+ cells and the Gram(-) strains of the TLR-4+ cells. The probiotic strain induced the release of IL-6 by a preparation enriched in intestinal epithelial cells (IEC). Gram(+) and Gram(-) bacteria activated different immune receptors and induced a different cytokine profile. The probiotic strain showed a great activity on the immune cells and the enriched population in IEC, activating mainly cells of the innate immune system.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1737971...Pubmed_RVDocSum
Helicobacter hepaticus colonizes the murine intestine and has been associated with hepatic inflammation and neoplasia in susceptible mouse strains. In this study, the catalase of an enterohepatic Helicobacter was characterized for the first time. H. hepaticus catalase is a highly conserved enzyme that may be important for bacterial survival in the mammalian intestine. Recombinant H. hepaticus catalase was expressed in Escherichia coli in order to verify its enzymic activity in vitro. H. hepaticus catalase comprises 478 amino acids with a highly conserved haem-ligand domain. Three conserved motifs (R-F-Y-D, RERIPER and VVHAKG) in the haem-ligand domain and three surface-predicted motifs were identified in H. hepaticus catalase and are shared among bacterial and mammalian catalases. H. hepaticus catalase is present in the cytoplasmic and periplasmic compartments. Mice infected with H. hepaticus demonstrated immune responses to murine and H. hepaticus catalase, suggesting that Helicobacter catalase contains conserved structural motifs and may contribute to autoimmune responses. Antibodies to H. hepaticus catalase recognized murine hepatocyte catalase in hepatic tissue from infected mice. Antibodies from sera of H. hepaticus-infected mice reacted with peptides comprising two conserved surface-predicted motifs in H. hepaticus catalase. Catalases are highly conserved enzymes in bacteria and mammals that may contribute to autoimmune responses in animals infected with catalase-producing pathogens.

An example of how a single strain of bacteria found in the gut (in mice) can produce a product which can cross react with the mice's own enzymes. More importantly, this article shows that autoimmunity may have ties to various types of bacteria in the gut. If it can happen in mice, there is no reason a similar effect can't happen in humans. In fact, this is the case in arthritis induced by Lyme disease.

Immunopathology of Lyme arthritis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1804434...Pubmed_RVDocSum
Lyme borreliosis (Lyme disease) is the most prevalent tick-borne disease caused by spirochaetes of the Borrelia species complex. Arthritis is one of the common manifestations of B. burgdorferi infection. The pathomechanism of articular changes in Lyme arthritis has not yet been elucidated. Histopathological studies of synovia and immunological changes are similar to rheumatoid arthritis. In the early stage of inflammation B. burgdorferi interact with polynuclear granulocytes and epithelial cells, triggering production of reactive oxygen species, lipid peroxidation products and other inflammatory mediators. The imbalance between anabolic and catabolic processes in inflamed joints results in the progressive destruction of articular cartilage and disintegration of extracellular matrix. Molecular mimicry between OspA (outer surface protein A) and adhesion molecule LFA-1alpha seems to be responsible for chronic arthritis.

Another example of how cross reactivity between a bacteria can cause "seemingly unrelated" arthritis issues.


An abstract from an article which shows how different bacteria can manipulate toll like receptors in the gut

Autoimmunity results from the dysregulation of the immune system leading to tissue damage. Th1 and Th17 cells are known to be cellular mediators of inflammation in autoimmune diseases. The specific cytokine milieu within the site of inflammation or within secondary lymphatic tissues is important during the priming and effector phases of T cell response. In this review, we will address the nature of the inflammatory response in the context of autoimmune disease, specifically we will discuss the role of dendritic cells following stimulation of their innate pathogen recognition receptors in directing the development of T cell responses. We will focus on how dendritic cell subsets change the balance between major players in autoimmunity, namely Th1, Th17 and regulatory T cells. Th17 cells, once thought to only act as pathogenic effectors through production of IL-17, have been shown to have regulatory properties as well with co-production of the anti-inflammatory cytokine IL-10 by a subset now referred to as regulatory Th17 cells. IL-17 is important in the induction of autoimmune diseases such as experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE) and inflammatory bowel disease (IBD). Study of the inflammatory process following encounter with agents that stimulate the innate immune responses such as adjuvants opens a new horizon for the discovery of therapeutic agents including those derived from microorganisms. Microbial products such as adjuvants that function as TLR ligands may stimulate the immune system by interacting with Toll-like receptors (TLR) on antigen-presenting cells.]Microbial agents such as Bacille Calmette-Guérin (BCG) or Freund's adjuvant (CFA) that induce a Th17 response are protective in models of autoimmune diseases particularly EAE and type 1 diabetes (T1D). The induction of innate immunity by these microbial products alters the balance in the cytokine microenvironment and may be responsible for modulation of the inflammation and protection from autoimmunity.

I have read many of these papers. They are all from high quality journals, all from 2008 or 2007. This is just an example of just SOME of the information on the connection between toll receptors in acne, toll receptors in autoimmunity, regulation of toll receptors within the gut, and how bacteria can use many methods such as molecular mimicry to cause human pathogenisis.. I found all of these articles within 15 minutes on Pub Med. I can find dozens of other articles which can connect intestinal health with acne. I have read many of them. I can do this all day. I many not know everything, but I do work in a lab, have a deal of experience reading scientific journals so I understand what they are talking about, and am working on my masters in biomolecular sciences.

If you guys want more information which supports the idea connecting intestinal inflammation with skin, I'll be more than happy to dig up more on pub med. I would post the whole journal articles if it was practical.

Other thoughts: As I said before, bacteria aren't the only things which can effect gut health. I don't know much in this area, but there is a growing amount of research of the enteric nervous system (huge nervous network within the intestine that we hardly know anything about. It is also connected to the central nervous system) regulation and gut health. This may be how other factors like mood and sleep can lead to acne. Certain SSRI antidepressants have been shown to be helpful in relieving some bowel related disorders. Considering the fact that there are a high level of neurons within the gut, it is certainly reasonable that there may be SOME connection between gut health and neurotransmitters, and vica versa.Thats why many people with chronic adult acne may also experience issues with depression and chronic fatigue. One more journal entry, just for shits and giggles.

Department of Gastroenterology and Human Nutrition, All India Institute of Medical Sciences, New Delhi, India.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1574047...Pubmed_RVDocSum
Stress, defined as an acute threat to homeostasis, evokes an adaptive or allostatic response and can have both a short- and long-term influence on the function of the gastrointestinal tract. The enteric nervous system is connected bidirectionally to the brain by parasympathetic and sympathetic pathways forming the brain-gut axis. The neural network of the brain, which generates the stress response, is called the central stress circuitry and includes the paraventricular nucleus of the hypothalamus, amygdala and periaqueductal gray. It receives input from the somatic and visceral afferent pathways and also from the visceral motor cortex including the medial prefrontal, anterior cingulate and insular cortex. The output of this central stress circuit is called the emotional motor system and includes automatic efferents, the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis and pain modulatory systems. Severe or long-term stress can induce long-term alteration in the stress response (plasticity). Corticotropin releasing factor (CRF) is a key mediator of the central stress response. Two CRF receptor subtypes, R1 and R2, have been described. They mediate increased colonic motor activity and slowed gastric emptying, respectively, in response to stress. Specific CRF receptor antagonists injected into the 0 block these visceral manifestations of stress. Circulating glucocorticoids exert an inhibitory effect on the stress response by receptors located in the medial prefrontal cortex and hippocampus. Many other neurotransmitters and neuroimmunomodulators are being evaluated. Stress increases the intestinal permeability to large antigenic molecules. It can lead to mast cell activation, degranulation and colonic mucin depletion. A reversal of small bowel water and electrolyte absorption occurs in response to stress and is mediated cholinergically. Stress also leads to increased susceptibility to colonic inflammation, which can be adaptively transferred among rats by sensitized CD4(+) lymphocytes. The association between stress and various gastrointestinal diseases, including functional bowel disorders, inflammatory bowel disease, peptic ulcer disease and gastroesophageal reflux disease, is being actively investigated. Attention to the close relation between the brain and gut has opened many therapeutic avenues for the future.

I haven't read this one yet, but I mean to.

[jemini]

I couldn't resist. Just one more article (an old one from 1998) how genetic factors can affect microbial colonization and autoimmune disease. This may help explain why some of us are "prone" to acne. Slight genetic differences in the immune system cascades, tight barrier function, or even differential expression of toll like receptors may all play roles. This one is a good one and essentially reiterates everything I have said thus far. Just read the entire abstract.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9821323...Pubmed_RVDocSum
Autoimmunity, immunodeficiency and mucosal infections: chronic intestinal inflammation as a sensitive indicator of immunoregulatory defects in response to normal luminal microflora.

Despite the fact that target antigens and the genetic basis of several autoimmune diseases are now better understood, the initial events leading to a loss of tolerance towards self-components remain unknown.One of the most attractive explanations for autoimmune phenomena involves various infections as possible natural events capable of initiating the process in genetically predisposed individuals. The most accepted explanation of how infection causes autoimmunity is based on the concept of "molecular mimicry" (similarity between the epitopes of an autoantigen and the epitopes in the environmental antigen). Infectious stimuli may also participate in the development of autoimmunity by inducing an increased expression of stress proteins (hsp), chaperones and transplantation antigens, which leads to abnormal processing and presentation of self antigens. Superantigens are considered to be one of the most effective bacterial components to induce inflammatory reactions and to take part in the development and course of autoimmune mechanisms. It has long been known that defects in the host defense mechanism render the individual susceptible to infections caused by certain microorganisms. Impaired exclusion of microbial antigens can lead to chronic immunological activation which can affect the tolerance to self components. Defects in certain components of the immune system are associated with a higher risk of a development of autoimmune disease. The use of animal models for the studies of human diseases with immunological pathogenesis has provided new insights into the influence of immunoregulatory factors and the lymphocyte subsets involved in the development of disease. One of the most striking conclusion arising from work with genetically engineered immunodeficient mouse models is the existence of a high level of redundancy of the components of the immune system. However, when genes encoding molecules involved in T cell immunoregulatory functions are deleted, spontaneous chronic inflammation of the gut mucosa (similar to human inflammatory bowel disease) develops. Surprisingly, when such immunocompromised animals were placed into germfree environment, intestinal inflammation did not develop. Impairment of the mucosal immune response to the normal bacterial flora has been proposed to play a crucial role in the pathogenesis of chronic intestinal inflammation. The use of immunodeficient models colonized with defined microflora for the analysis of immune reactivity will shed light on the mode of action of different immunologically important molecules responsible for the delicate balance between luminal commensals, nonspecific and specific components of the mucosal immune system.

[cmelvin]

Actually it does hold weight. Because you see, no one listens to a lazy couch potato when it comes to being a bodybuilding. No one listens to some bum on the street on how to get rich. Same thing with this. Why not listen to those that are successful and clear on acne than listen to someone's string theory who just happens to be on a bunch of medication themselves?

10,000 years? LOL, they also didn't wipe their butts, brush their teeth, and died before they were 21 years old 10,000 years ago. You lose son. Because that was as stupid as it gets.

I don't need her opinions to back up. From what I have seen in my real life experience of over 10 years, is that my face is 100% clear from my methods. I see others have theirs. The one big difference is is that they are still taking a bunch of crap, I am doing nothing but my method.

what a mature, enlightened response! so you're saying that because they "didn't wipe their butts", the eating habits from 99.9% of our human history are meaningless? what brilliance...

i suppose the fact that acne (and most chronic diseases) does not exist in many indigenous cultures - who eat naturally low carb diets full of meats, fish, non-starchy vegetables, nuts, and berries - also doesn't mean as much as your anecdotal evidence.

dr. cordain has been generous enough to post the full text for many of his published studies here.

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/published_research/

as for low carb being "a fad", which is the statement i took exception to, i am assuming "necromancer 25th anniversary" means you are 25? which would mean you're too young to experience firsthand and obviously haven't read enough to realize that it is low FAT diets, not low carb diets, that are the fad. gary taubes' book has sparked controversy amongst the ignorant dinosaurs in the american medical association and mainstream medicine in general, but with each succesful low carb study that comes out, the tide is turning and i have almost all my clients eating this way (with great success i might add, two can play the anecdotal evidence game).

despite the fact that you are way off base on the diet element - which is a tangent from the original purpose of the thread - i agree with you that medical doctors are pretty worthless when it comes to acne. they don't seem to know anything - and don't care to learn - about getting to the root cause of acne. i also agree that putting a bunch of chemicals on your face is putting a band aid on the problem, and a terrible long-term solution.

i, like you it sounds, get really frustrated by the state of medical training and philosophy. many of my colleagues who are MDs don't know the first thing about nutrition or preventive health in general. which is why i appreciate the type of thinking the original poster offered, as THIS is the type of thing that is needed to get to a general root cause.

[cmelvin]

Anyone here a doctor? Sometimes people think they know, but they don't because things are more complicated than they appear at surface. So whoever here hasn't studied at least 5 years of medicine, i'd say for them not to make affirmations they are not qualified to make.

I'm sorry for being so harsh, but i've almost been misled before by pseudo-science, if only it wasn't for my strong knowledge of how to do real science. So i'm sure a lot of people that know less, may very likely be misled, and that is really unfair, because they are trusting someone that shouldn't be trusted since they have no qualifications to speak about the theme being dealt with.

For the theory to get any credibility, i suggest you get all your facts together, and publish it on a well known science journal to make it acessible for other scientists to critize and review it.

if only it were that easy... i am a phd student in epidemiology at a major medical school and i can tell you it is very difficult to get new ideas published. medical research has a kind of "gang mentality", as anyone who is stepping out of line with what is the current thinking will usually get attacked and have a hard time getting published. this makes true scientific progress in the current environment an uphill battle. then there is the issue of funding new studies... if it isn't a "hot area" or one in which someone stands to make a big profit, you will have a hard time getting funded for your study.

this unfortunate situation seems to hold no matter how faulty the current thinking may be. for instance, take the link between diet and acne. most of us can attest to the fact that many foods break us out. but the majority of stubborn physicians claim "it's hormones, not diet" that dictate acne. well hey genius, diet affects hormones!!! insulin especially, which is thought to play a big role in acne. while some progress has been made with the dairy study up at harvard and some of the paleo diet studies, the mainstream medical community seems hesitant to explore and embrace these ideas... imo, because there is a hell of a lot of money to be lost by the pharmaceutical companies with the millions spent on topical acne products and the medical community for dermatological practices.

anyway, back to the original theory. i think the great variability in regard to what foods exacerbate and improve acne may have something to do with intestinal permeability and digestion in general. i am at a loss for why i started getting forehead acne all of a sudden in my 30's despite no major changes in diet, and am trying to think big picture like this.

[Glass Danse]

Actually it does hold weight. Because you see, no one listens to a lazy couch potato when it comes to being a bodybuilding. No one listens to some bum on the street on how to get rich. Same thing with this. Why not listen to those that are successful and clear on acne than listen to someone's string theory who just happens to be on a bunch of medication themselves?

10,000 years? LOL, they also didn't wipe their butts, brush their teeth, and died before they were 21 years old 10,000 years ago. You lose son. Because that was as stupid as it gets.

I don't need her opinions to back up. From what I have seen in my real life experience of over 10 years, is that my face is 100% clear from my methods. I see others have theirs. The one big difference is is that they are still taking a bunch of crap, I am doing nothing but my method.

what a mature, enlightened response! so you're saying that because they "didn't wipe their butts", the eating habits from 99.9% of our human history are meaningless? what brilliance...

i suppose the fact that acne (and most chronic diseases) does not exist in many indigenous cultures - who eat naturally low carb diets full of meats, fish, non-starchy vegetables, nuts, and berries

These people are also generally more active, don't come in contact with chemicals and pollution like we do, don't eat foods with plenty of pesticides, dyes, corn syrups, etc., generally don't take things like antibiotics, spend more time in the sun + fresh air, just to name a few things different about indigenous cultures or third world counties. But no, clearly low-carb diets are the reason...

[cmelvin]

Actually it does hold weight. Because you see, no one listens to a lazy couch potato when it comes to being a bodybuilding. No one listens to some bum on the street on how to get rich. Same thing with this. Why not listen to those that are successful and clear on acne than listen to someone's string theory who just happens to be on a bunch of medication themselves?

10,000 years? LOL, they also didn't wipe their butts, brush their teeth, and died before they were 21 years old 10,000 years ago. You lose son. Because that was as stupid as it gets.

I don't need her opinions to back up. From what I have seen in my real life experience of over 10 years, is that my face is 100% clear from my methods. I see others have theirs. The one big difference is is that they are still taking a bunch of crap, I am doing nothing but my method.

what a mature, enlightened response! so you're saying that because they "didn't wipe their butts", the eating habits from 99.9% of our human history are meaningless? what brilliance...

i suppose the fact that acne (and most chronic diseases) does not exist in many indigenous cultures - who eat naturally low carb diets full of meats, fish, non-starchy vegetables, nuts, and berries

These people are also generally more active, don't come in contact with chemicals and pollution like we do, don't eat foods with plenty of pesticides, dyes, corn syrups, etc., generally don't take things like antibiotics, spend more time in the sun + fresh air, just to name a few things different about indigenous cultures or third world counties. But no, clearly low-carb diets are the reason...

i'm not going to hijack the thread with any more low carb diet ideas as the research speaks for itself, but when these kinds of indigenous cultures have historically been introduced to western diets (i.e. high refined carb) they have become obese, hypertensive, cardiovascular disease ridden... and yes, suffer from acne. this in the absence of changes in air, exercise, pollution, etc.

[Necromancer]

Wow, no need to get pissy about it. I never told be to take antibiotics, only that I would. And I never said derm methods don't work. They do for most people. But for people like me who have tried everything, including accutane twice at 23 years of age, with moderate acne and seborrhea, and positive skin improvements with dietary changes, hours of countless research through medical journals and coming to my own conclusions (I recommend everyone do their own research so they can come up with their own conclusions).

Necromancer, obviously you have never taken a human anthropology course. Most indigenous cultures who eat a diet of meat, natural fruit and vegetables live long healthy lives free of most diseases. They get wiped out when white people (or some other foreign culture) comes and gives them new diseases and/or enslaves them. You seem to be confusing traditional man with images of cave paintings and neanderthals. While indigenous tribes may not be the sharpest tools in the shed, their bodies have adapted to the diet they have been living off four countless thousands of years. Another point I would like to make. Supplementing with probiotics is not dangerous unless SEVERELY immunocomprimised. I did a report on Lactobacillus acidophilus back in my undergrad. No fatalities, and only found in the bloodstream of bodies how had other SEVERE systemic infections and were going to die anyway. No, we don't lose son.You sir, are an ignorant asshole who likes to get on a high horse and discuss bodybuilding to sound cool on an acne messageboard. I body build too. You are NOT cool because you lift weights. Don't you see the lack of logic in your own arguement? Trust doctors, but don't listen to my advice. But listen to you for bodybuilding, and don't listen to the specialists? How is that any different? How are you qualified to teach someone how to bodybuild, more than someone specifically trained? Probably that you found something that works for you and would mostly work for everyone else. I have found methods which have accomplished the same and merely trying to spread what methods me and others like me have worked for them.

People, Animus is right in that none of us are doctors. But this is a theory with a great deal of evidence to support it if you can take the time to look into it. There is no risk in keeping an open mind and taking some digestive enzymes. Don't take antibiotics if you fear the side effects, notice that was the last thing I recommended before taking other less risky changes. For many people, a quick visit to the derm for some Retin-A or some minocycline is a viable solution. But for those of us where Western medicine has failed us, I highly recommend that you at least CONSIDER these explanations. Why would I trust doctors completely in treating a medical condition which they themselves don't understand?

Say what you want, but in the end, I won't be the one shuving a bunch of untested medicine in my body that is supposedly going to cure your acne without screwing everything else up. And the sad thing is is that you won't even know what it did to you until 5-10-20 years in the future.

Post worship of a single site http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/

Yeah nice reference LOL. Find out what it says about the common cold and then come back.

I couldn't resist......

Next time please do if you are going to take even more garbage from the same site.

Actually it does hold weight. Because you see, no one listens to a lazy couch potato when it comes to being a bodybuilding. No one listens to some bum on the street on how to get rich. Same thing with this. Why not listen to those that are successful and clear on acne than listen to someone's string theory who just happens to be on a bunch of medication themselves?

10,000 years? LOL, they also didn't wipe their butts, brush their teeth, and died before they were 21 years old 10,000 years ago. You lose son. Because that was as stupid as it gets.

I don't need her opinions to back up. From what I have seen in my real life experience of over 10 years, is that my face is 100% clear from my methods. I see others have theirs. The one big difference is is that they are still taking a bunch of crap, I am doing nothing but my method.

what a mature, enlightened response! so you're saying that because they "didn't wipe their butts", the eating habits from 99.9% of our human history are meaningless? what brilliance...

i suppose the fact that acne (and most chronic diseases) does not exist in many indigenous cultures - who eat naturally low carb diets full of meats, fish, non-starchy vegetables, nuts, and berries - also doesn't mean as much as your anecdotal evidence.

dr. cordain has been generous enough to post the full text for many of his published studies here.

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/published_research/

as for low carb being "a fad", which is the statement i took exception to, i am assuming "necromancer 25th anniversary" means you are 25? which would mean you're too young to experience firsthand and obviously haven't read enough to realize that it is low FAT diets, not low carb diets, that are the fad. gary taubes' book has sparked controversy amongst the ignorant dinosaurs in the american medical association and mainstream medicine in general, but with each succesful low carb study that comes out, the tide is turning and i have almost all my clients eating this way (with great success i might add, two can play the anecdotal evidence game).

despite the fact that you are way off base on the diet element - which is a tangent from the original purpose of the thread - i agree with you that medical doctors are pretty worthless when it comes to acne. they don't seem to know anything - and don't care to learn - about getting to the root cause of acne. i also agree that putting a bunch of chemicals on your face is putting a band aid on the problem, and a terrible long-term solution.

i, like you it sounds, get really frustrated by the state of medical training and philosophy. many of my colleagues who are MDs don't know the first thing about nutrition or preventive health in general. which is why i appreciate the type of thinking the original poster offered, as THIS is the type of thing that is needed to get to a general root cause.

Agree with most of this post. Although most current diets are those of low carbs when it should be 0 carbs to see results. Also I think Dr. Cordain is an idiot.

[Necromancer]

Actually it does hold weight. Because you see, no one listens to a lazy couch potato when it comes to being a bodybuilding. No one listens to some bum on the street on how to get rich. Same thing with this. Why not listen to those that are successful and clear on acne than listen to someone's string theory who just happens to be on a bunch of medication themselves?

10,000 years? LOL, they also didn't wipe their butts, brush their teeth, and died before they were 21 years old 10,000 years ago. You lose son. Because that was as stupid as it gets.

I don't need her opinions to back up. From what I have seen in my real life experience of over 10 years, is that my face is 100% clear from my methods. I see others have theirs. The one big difference is is that they are still taking a bunch of crap, I am doing nothing but my method.

what a mature, enlightened response! so you're saying that because they "didn't wipe their butts", the eating habits from 99.9% of our human history are meaningless? what brilliance...

i suppose the fact that acne (and most chronic diseases) does not exist in many indigenous cultures - who eat naturally low carb diets full of meats, fish, non-starchy vegetables, nuts, and berries

These people are also generally more active, don't come in contact with chemicals and pollution like we do, don't eat foods with plenty of pesticides, dyes, corn syrups, etc., generally don't take things like antibiotics, spend more time in the sun + fresh air, just to name a few things different about indigenous cultures or third world counties. But no, clearly low-carb diets are the reason...

LOL I like this post. Basically the OP has just ignored everything else in the world when it comes to comparing cultures of 10,000 years ago. If the OP was coaching a football team and they lost by 7 points, the OP would focus on the 1 extra point that was missed in the game and then say the team clearly lost because of the FG kicker LOL.

[AniMuS]

Anyone here a doctor? Sometimes people think they know, but they don't because things are more complicated than they appear at surface. So whoever here hasn't studied at least 5 years of medicine, i'd say for them not to make affirmations they are not qualified to make.

I'm sorry for being so harsh, but i've almost been misled before by pseudo-science, if only it wasn't for my strong knowledge of how to do real science. So i'm sure a lot of people that know less, may very likely be misled, and that is really unfair, because they are trusting someone that shouldn't be trusted since they have no qualifications to speak about the theme being dealt with.

For the theory to get any credibility, i suggest you get all your facts together, and publish it on a well known science journal to make it acessible for other scientists to critize and review it.

Oh yeah I forgot doctors really know how to treat acne well. Look at all the faces of people in here that visit the dermatologist all the time. Get serious. Acne is about experience and not what some nerd who read books and took stupid tests for 5-10 years post grad did.

It's like you can listen to me and get free bodybuilding advice that will work with real results in a month or you can pay someone with a 'certificate' to tell you how to work out and never get anywhere.

Get serious.

Cmon... don't compare bodybuilding to medicine!!! It's not even a matter of discussion which course is the one that involves more knowledge!! And the proof of that is that you without having to take a course are able to go further than someone who did, while id say close to no-one that didn't study medicine will be able to go further than someone who did in matter of knowledge of the human body.

Also they don't know how to treat acne, thats right, but they sure are much closer to a solution than someone who didn't study medicine. Also, just because many doctors are more interested in making money than curing acne, doesn't mean acne is something to be treated by someone not in the field. I could use your argument with any disease. "[insert disease here] is about experience and not what some nerd who read books and took stupid tests for 5-10 years post grad did." That's right. The same nerds that make your vaccines, the same nerds that found a cure for Lyme, Crohns, disease and many others, the same nerds that created the pacemaker for people with cardiovascular problems, the same nerds that make people with diabets be able to live,etc, etc... Yeah those nerds.

With experience i can make simple calculations about the speed of things, but to know the complex movements of engines and other complex machines i might wanna study first. This is to show that knowledge based on experience is very limited, every scientist knows that. If that weren't true, all oldies would have PhD in most of subjects just by being old and having experience of life. So yes, to get good a something you must study it, and doctors study nothing less than the human body. What else could be more acne-related?

Also this doesn't mean there aren't incompetent doctors. As in any field there are competent and incompetent, and though neither can cure acne, being with the formers can help you not take stupid risks to your health.

@cmelvin: i can see that. They're the same persons that if were born 500 years ago would have laughed at Copernicus idea that the Earth revolves around the Sun. People don't like change, and then happens what you described. But having other scientists critize a theory makes it much more easier to find (or not) any faults in it.

[Glass Danse]

Actually it does hold weight. Because you see, no one listens to a lazy couch potato when it comes to being a bodybuilding. No one listens to some bum on the street on how to get rich. Same thing with this. Why not listen to those that are successful and clear on acne than listen to someone's string theory who just happens to be on a bunch of medication themselves?

10,000 years? LOL, they also didn't wipe their butts, brush their teeth, and died before they were 21 years old 10,000 years ago. You lose son. Because that was as stupid as it gets.

I don't need her opinions to back up. From what I have seen in my real life experience of over 10 years, is that my face is 100% clear from my methods. I see others have theirs. The one big difference is is that they are still taking a bunch of crap, I am doing nothing but my method.

what a mature, enlightened response! so you're saying that because they "didn't wipe their butts", the eating habits from 99.9% of our human history are meaningless? what brilliance...

i suppose the fact that acne (and most chronic diseases) does not exist in many indigenous cultures - who eat naturally low carb diets full of meats, fish, non-starchy vegetables, nuts, and berries

These people are also generally more active, don't come in contact with chemicals and pollution like we do, don't eat foods with plenty of pesticides, dyes, corn syrups, etc., generally don't take things like antibiotics, spend more time in the sun + fresh air, just to name a few things different about indigenous cultures or third world counties. But no, clearly low-carb diets are the reason...

i'm not going to hijack the thread with any more low carb diet ideas as the research speaks for itself, but when these kinds of indigenous cultures have historically been introduced to western diets (i.e. high refined carb) they have become obese, hypertensive, cardiovascular disease ridden... and yes, suffer from acne. this in the absence of changes in air, exercise, pollution, etc.

While the Western diet is high in refined carbs, it is also high in things like the consumption of refined sugars, a whole bunch of chemicals, the general lack of nutrients in many of the western foods compared to whole foods, things like high fructose corn syrup, or anything else associated with processing and packaging foods.

[jemini]

Just one more post before this turns into a flame war. First off, all the articles I posted were from high quality journals. Pub med is just a collection of research journals, and yes, there are many which are garbage. But the ones I posted were from highly respected journals. Seconds, I never said low carbing is what paleo man ate, or that low carbing is good for you. A recent study has shown that the reason people lose weight on low carb diets is mostly that they just eat less calories. Protein tends to be more filling. I said that insulin could be an aggravating factor in acne, and reducing carbohydrate intake may help in this aspect. Yo can get plenty of carbs from a variety of fruits and vegetables. And indigenous cultures did not consume a low carb diet. However, they did consume a diet that was much healthier on their digestive tract. They would eat fruits and vegetables and eggs and meat which they could forage and hunt. If they did eat milk, beans or grains, they would usually eat them in some fermented form (no refrigeration, fermented forms would happen naturally). Thus constantly repopulating their intestine and predigesting their foods. Africans have ogi, indians have tempeh, asians have miso and and tofu, western europe has fermented milk products, native Americans and mexicans would ferment their corn, south americans would even ferment their cacao before ingesting. Grain consuming cultures also didn't have quick rise breads containing only sac cervisaie (traditional cultures obviously didn't and microbiology techniques in which to isolate individual microbes) which was invented within the last century. Quick rise breads were invented so bread manufactures could make twice the bread in one day, and fire their night shift. Any breads which were made before this process were made with a starter culture with endogenous bacteria and yeasts from the environment (think sourdough). A slower rise occurred which also allowed time for the breakdown gluten by the bacteria. Jews ate unleavened bread, but only on a specific holiday, and definitely not on a regular basis until recently. While many people have been consuming milk and fast rise bread without ill effect, many others have developed severe lactose intolerance and celiac disease. Thus genetic factors can also attribute. I read a study several years ago and I can't find the citation on pub med, so forgive me for that. Anyway, a study came out which showed a higher incidence of celiac disease in children who were introduced to gluten at a very early age (ie, bread fed to infants while their immune system was still in development). However, this would be much less likely to occur if your grains were naturally fermented to reduce the antigenic nature of the gluten. So even if a baby did eat bread, he would not develop an immune reaction to it.

Anyway, believe what you want. Again, if you have something that has worked for you from the derm then you wouldn't be in the nutrition forum in the first place. I have absolutely no problems with doctors, and yes they are very very very smart people. Yes, they have spent years in school and do their own clinical research. However, they have failed me. Every medication or quick fix they could throw at me just gave me side effects, with no long term benefits. I was never told to eat probiotics when on a long term treatment of antibiotics which is now the standard advice btw, which I believe may have started the condition I now presently face. Their methods, as well as other methods on this board including necromancers can definitely work for many many people, and I never said they didn't. This has led me to take my own health matters into my own hands and do my own research. If doctors have failed you, or you don't wish to take accutane or antibiotics for fear of various side effects. My post was mostly to point out that results can be achieved WITHOUT drugs. If anything, my post was to point out that drugs should be a last resort. I am going on antibiotics simply because I don't have the will power to maintain the strict diet, and inevitably falter. However, every time I clean up my diet 110%, my oil drops, my skin clears, I have more energy, my dandruff disappears, and the dark circles under my eyes vanish. I am not imagining these results. But sooner or later, I find myself hungry and the only thing I can find is a sandwich. This brings me back to square one. But this is me, someone else may find that simple dietary modifications can help, or the occasional cheat yields minimal consequences. Since diet HAS worked for me, I have done my own research to come up with an explanation as to WHY. As any doctor will tell you, acne is a very complex disease, and involves much more than a surface infection of P. acnes. It involves complex interactions with the immune system. My research on intestinal hyperpermeability is the most unifying theory which can explain how diet, antibiotics, probiotics, food intolerances, complex immune cascades (which can be amplified by high insulin), emotional state AND genetic factors can all play a role in acne. Hmmm, haven't all of these factors been shown to affect acne? I'm not saying the theory is correct, but come to your own conclusions. Just try a change in diet, maybe throw in some antioxidants and digestive enzymes. I assure you, nothing bad will happen unlike accutane and antibiotics. If the dietary regimen is too strict and you fail to see results, go to the derm and get some retin A, and some minocycline. Have them tell you that you got to stay on this regimen indefinitely, until you "grow out" of your acne. Suffer side effects which can include altered bone growth, birth defects, and increased depression (accutane), or permanent damage to your teeth and diarrhea (tetracyline antibiotics). I honestly feel that my regimen is safer, gets to the root cause of most of our acne, and shouldn't require dangerous prescription medication for most people.

But hey, its your life. Come to your own conclusions, think I am a nut and go get your accutane.

P.S. I think Dr. Cordain and D'amato are a little kooky too. I think they found dietary modifications which work, but came up with substandard explanations as to why. Diets based on blood type are bullshit due to the genetic diversity and mixed breeding of races. Paleo diets work, but not just because they are low carb, or that we are "Adapted" to eat like that. We have adapted to agriculture as well, which includes grains and milk. And we have thrived as a species because of it. Agriculture is was brought us out of the stone age, and into the age of culture and thought. However, traditional consumption of agricultural products has included soaking, sprouting, and fermentation. Every agricultural society consumed their products like this one a regular basis. It is only over the last hundred years or so that we have deviated from this norm, which is NOT enough time for everyone to adapt. Bread is all quick rise, and cheeses are made with added acids to separate the curds and whey, since fermentation takes too long at an industrial level. Profitability has come at the price of our long term health.

[jemini]

A note about prebiotics and soluble fiber

I would actually hold off on prebiotics. The reason why they are "good" for you is that they feed the bacteria in your gut, without preference. In a "normal" person with healthy flora, most of the bacteria is good, and their intestinal lining is in good shape. However, prebiotics and soluble fiber would only aggravate someone with severe dysbiosis and IBS. If you have the wrong bacteria in your gut and you lining is damaged, you will only do more damage by increasing proliferation. Thats why the jury is still out when it comes to fiber and IBS. For some people, insoluble fiber helps, while that others find that soluble fiber relieves their constipation. By determining exactly whats going on, a better choice can be made. Assuming a dysbiosis issue, soluble fiber from grains (oatmeal really give me bad gas) and prebiotics like inulin (found in supplements, and found in garlic and artichoke) will make things worse. While insoluble fiber can not be digested by the bacteria since it is insoluble. It has a "cleaning" effect, sort of scraping your insides clean of bacteria and pushing them out. So cruciferous, nonstarchy vegetables and only a handful of fruits fit the bill here. Thats why some people, myself included get bad breakouts and gas when they eat a banana (lots of soluble fiber), but can handle other fruits and vegetables just fine. This is another reason why the diet is hard. You really HAVE TO know exactly the nutritional make up of each food that you eat, and that lumping all foods together into food groups won't yield results.

[cmelvin]

jemini, much of what you have said makes sense in respect to your theory encompassing many of the individual factors (diet, antibiotics, genetics, etc.) that people have found contribute to acne.

in terms of how to implement such a strategy if one suspects this type of cause...

1.) are there particular strains of probiotics that you recommend?

2.) what amounts do you think are optimal? would this vary by weight?

3.) is there a delivery form (tablet, capsule, "pearl", refrigerated, etc.) that you think would be best?

personally, i have been taking one natrol biobead (lactobacillus acidophilus, bifidobacterium bifidum, bifidobacterium longum, lactobacillus rhamnosus) at night and took two florastor (saccharomyces boulardii lyo) a day for about a month until i ran out recently.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/natrol/bio.html
http://www.florastor.com/article.asp?id=1139

however, i am a muscular 230 lbs and wonder if i would need to take more because of my size? or if these products truly reach the gut intact?

[jemini]

I couldn't recommend any particular strain of probiotics, especially since everyones flora is different. So I think the best strategy would be a shotgun approach, and take something with the most diversity. I generally recommend fermenting ones own food, just because its cheaper and thats how we have traditionally have got them. Kefir grains are 10 bucks on ebay and a 1 time investment. A kombucha mushroom is the same. I feel probiotics in food form as the bacteria get trapped in the curds, fat and protein which may act as a natural "time release." Bacteria may be alive in a freeze dried capsule, but their activity may reduced from the processesing. But any high quality enteric coated probiotic capsule would probably suffice well enough. I don't have any particular brand preference, but you probably get what you pay for in terms of gentle processing and proper treatment of the probiotics. I only recommend home made food forms because they are cheap, easy, and how nature intended. Since you have already been on a strict diet cmelvin, your system may be ready for probiotics. But if you find yourself having adverse reactions, it might mean your gut is still imflamed from some error in the diet. In which case, it would be best to hold off on the live, fermented foods.

I don't think weight would be a huge factor. It would more likely have to do with the surface area and/or volume of the intestinal tract. Even still, a cup of kefir or 1 or 2 probiotic capsules would probably suffice. But its your own body, you would be best able to judge.

[AutonomousOne1980]

I'm not saying the theory isn't a good one, and may be true to some extent. I'm just saying it has not been proven that leaky gut is the "root cause" of acne.

You seem very intelligent and well studied jemini. Do you have any idea why probiotics would make me break out? I have tried taking them on several different occasions, and every time I take them, my acne get worse at about the 1 to 2 week mark.... never fails.

coincidence perhaps???

[AniMuS]

I'm not saying the theory isn't a good one, and may be true to some extent. I'm just saying it has not been proven that leaky gut is the "root cause" of acne.

You seem very intelligent and well studied jemini. Do you have any idea why probiotics would make me break out? I have tried taking them on several different occasions, and every time I take them, my acne get worse at about the 1 to 2 week mark.... never fails.

coincidence perhaps???

Exactly.. remember that correlation doesn't mean causation.