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Internet alternatives to Expensive Clearlight treatments


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#61 blacksheiladog

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 12:07 AM

Thank you again, techguy, for an excellent post! -Dan


QUOTE(Techguy @ Oct 16 2007, 12:45 PM) View Post
My two cent's worth on the various questions raised in the last couple of posts:

1) Is a 15w compact equivilent to a 15w tube fluorescent? Blacksheiladog is correct, both have about the same total light output, but the compact one MAY do a better job of getting all that light onto your face. While, the bulb efficiency does vary some due to the geometry (linear tubes have a slight edge here), internal construction, and particualar mix of phosphors used, the biggest difference will be in how well the fixture and bulb shape work to get the light aimed where you want it.

(Note - Blacksheiladog is also correct about a 15w bulb being effectively only 7.5 w if you tape up half of it - or if half of it is shining the light on your wall instead of your face)

2) I'm not sure that covering existing white reflectors with foil will help as much as extending them will. White reflects just about all the light, but scatters it evenly and widely, while the foil reflects the rays back at the same angle they arrived (making for more glare but a more focused/aimed light). If you position the lamp really close to your face, the light scattered by the white reflector probably still hits your face. If there is room for some to miss, though, then adding additional reflectors to catch and redirect the light that otherwise would miss your face helps a lot. That means adding length and width to the reflector so it extends beyond the bulb and aims the wayward beams back at your face. Even the added reflector can be white if there is no way for the scattered light reflected off of it to miss your face (i.e. it's so close to your face that there's no way out).

Note: Covering an existing white relector with foil makes its geometry/angles much more critical. You might improve the result or accidentally end up reflecting much of the light away from where you want it. You also don't want to reflect too much right back at the bulb as it tends to reduce the total output a bit. It helps to have lots of patience and an understanding of the basic principles to fiddle with reflectors successfully.


3) Regarding whether blue light works only on people whose acne is sensitive to sunlight and/or whether it should work on everyone, there are various factors to consider:

i) The theraputic blue lights contain much more of the critical wavelengths near 410nm than does natural sunlight. Thus it's hard to compare results of natural sunlight exposure with the exposure under professional or home-built blue light units.

ii) We don't know if the P.acnes bacteria is the root cause for everyone's acne. Some people may have differing causes. (note for example, whiteheads and blackheads are often not the result the action of P.acnes and do not respond well to blue light)

iii) We also don't know if the degree of production of "coporphyrin III" is the same in the P.acnes in all people. Coporphyrin III is the porphyrin that reacts with the blue light to produce the bacteria-killing oxygen.

Best of luck



#62 mikeye

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 01:37 PM

Into the middle of my 3rd week with the actinic aqualight...and so far things are still about the same.

Will consider a higher wattage light soon.

#63 blacksheiladog

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 09:52 AM

I have been reading up more on the beneficial effects of the 660 nm red light to stimulate cell growth. The BeautySkin device which has 6 bulbs (3x15W 420nm and 3x15W 660nm) looks promising as well. I have read several threads on that device (both on this forum and others) and the only downside I see is that it would not be as convenient to use (it basically sits on a desk). It is also a bit expensive, but not too bad, selling for $270.00 right now.

My daughter is currently using 2 desklamps with the ebay device bulbs, which you can angle over your face in bed or on the floor. She does seem to be responding to the blue light (2 x 27 watts). I might try buying this BeautySkin device to have my daughter test the red light component for healing purposes. Any thoughts on this?


Techguy: Someone suggested that using red and blue lights together "cancel" eachother out. That did not make sense to me, because although the light will "look" different in overall color to our eye, isn't that solely due to our eye mixing the colors, and aren't the light frequencies still present as they were produced from the bulbs?

#64 blacksheiladog

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 04:17 PM

and here is an interesting website which is basically for photography, and discusses (a little ways down the page) the actinic lights with spectrums,specifically the Voltarc Aqua A, which looks to be right what we would want in the spectrum. The "super actinic" is not as good, as it peaks about 450nm. Apparently Voltarc makes specialty bulbs. I wonder if they would make a specific bulb for desk lamp size? And, I wonder if Acne.org could distribute such bulbs to those who want them?

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Light/light.html

#65 Techguy

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 06:01 PM

Responding to two issues...
1. Will the red light and the blue light cancel each other out? I have heard that as well, but have also heard elsewhere that they do not. If there is any interaction/cancellation it would NOT be due to a mixing of the wavelengths producing a wrong color; you are correct that any such mixing is soley a psycho-visual perceptive effect (i.e. the way the brain interprets the signals from the three types of cone cells in the retina as colors).

It is possible, though, that there could be an interaction between the biochemical action of the blue light (the conversion of the porphyrins to peroxide resulting in killing of bacteria), with the supposed anti-inflammatory effects of the red light. I have not yet studied the red light issue well enough to comment beyond a quick speculation that it's unlikely to make a difference whether you dose simultaneously or sequentially.

I also have not yet looked into how important the exact wavelength is for red light. The one study I read used 660nm; I don't know the wavelength of the Beautyskin bulbs. They claim that the bulbs have the exact right wavelengths, yet their spectrum chart seems to say they have a range that is from 580-659nm (which implies very low output near 660 as the bulk of the output is usually near the center of quoted range). See:
http://www.beautyskinusa.com/product.htm
** Note, I believe the enLUX LED is 620nm (based on the specs on the Std Red R30 bulb on the enLUX site. I am assuming that Sci-Art is buying enLUX's std red bulb, but that's not definitive). Also, I don't have good data on how bright either the Beautyskin or the eLux Red bulbs are. I asked the enLUX engineer about their blue and red LEDs, but he only answered about the blue (1.8-2.0 watts total radiated optical power).

2. Custom lamp manufacturing: I don't know the economics, but I supect at some point the FDA is going to start taking an interest in folks selling bulbs for acne treatment, as they likely fall under the rules for medical therapy devices, which are pretty strict. Thus, it may be problematic. If someone is interested, though, YesLED said they are willing to manufacture LED flat panels. It's possible one can circumvent the FDA issue by making claims only for the overall health benefits of light and skip any claims about treating a disease or medical condition.

#66 blacksheiladog

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 07:16 PM

QUOTE(Techguy @ Oct 20 2007, 05:01 PM) View Post
Responding to two issues...
1. Will the red light and the blue light cancel each other out? I have heard that as well, but have also heard elsewhere that they do not. If there is any interaction/cancellation it would NOT be due to a mixing of the wavelengths producing a wrong color; you are correct that any such mixing is soley a psycho-visual perceptive effect (i.e. the way the brain interprets the signals from the three types of cone cells in the retina as colors).

It is possible, though, that there could be an interaction between the biochemical action of the blue light (the conversion of the porphyrins to peroxide resulting in killing of bacteria), with the supposed anti-inflammatory effects of the red light. I have not yet studied the red light issue well enough to comment beyond a quick speculation that it's unlikely to make a difference whether you dose simultaneously or sequentially.

I also have not yet looked into how important the exact wavelength is for red light. The one study I read used 660nm; I don't know the wavelength of the Beautyskin bulbs. They claim that the bulbs have the exact right wavelengths, yet their spectrum chart seems to say they have a range that is from 580-659nm (which implies very low output near 660 as the bulk of the output is usually near the center of quoted range). See:
http://www.beautyskinusa.com/product.htm
** Note, I believe the enLUX LED is 620nm (based on the specs on the Std Red R30 bulb on the enLUX site. I am assuming that Sci-Art is buying enLUX's std red bulb, but that's not definitive). Also, I don't have good data on how bright either the Beautyskin or the eLux Red bulbs are. I asked the enLUX engineer about their blue and red LEDs, but he only answered about the blue (1.8-2.0 watts total radiated optical power).

2. Custom lamp manufacturing: I don't know the economics, but I supect at some point the FDA is going to start taking an interest in folks selling bulbs for acne treatment, as they likely fall under the rules for medical therapy devices, which are pretty strict. Thus, it may be problematic. If someone is interested, though, YesLED said they are willing to manufacture LED flat panels. It's possible one can circumvent the FDA issue by making claims only for the overall health benefits of light and skip any claims about treating a disease or medical condition.



Thank you again for an informative post. Let me suggest an idea to you in a PM. Check your in box. Thanks. -Dan


#67 mikeye

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 12:34 AM

I notice that using the lamp for longer periods is better...I tried 10 (week 1), 15 (week 2) and now 20 mins on each side and I'm getting improvements.

Also, I would not suggest the Beautylamp because my friend has it and says it doesn't work and also because of the high price tag...I'm going to borrow it in the next couple of weeks to see how that works.



#68 blacksheiladog

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 03:31 PM

I'm going to see my daughter this week, and ask how she is doing after about 6 weeks with two of the ebay lights. Let you know..

#69 lamarr1986

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 03:44 PM

QUOTE(mikeye @ Oct 21 2007, 06:34 AM) View Post
I notice that using the lamp for longer periods is better...I tried 10 (week 1), 15 (week 2) and now 20 mins on each side and I'm getting improvements.

Also, I would not suggest the Beautylamp because my friend has it and says it doesn't work and also because of the high price tag...I'm going to borrow it in the next couple of weeks to see how that works.


What you need to realise is that the effects from the light treatement are cumulative. E.g. you won't see any results (most people don't anyway) for the first few weeks, but then results start to kick in and you gradually see better and better results!! So it may simply be due to the fact you are just now starting to see positive results from the light therapy, not that you have increased the duration of exposure (although it may provide you with even greater improvement in a few weeks time)


#70 mikeye

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 06:17 PM

QUOTE(lamarr1986 @ Oct 28 2007, 05:44 PM) View Post
QUOTE(mikeye @ Oct 21 2007, 06:34 AM) View Post
I notice that using the lamp for longer periods is better...I tried 10 (week 1), 15 (week 2) and now 20 mins on each side and I'm getting improvements.

Also, I would not suggest the Beautylamp because my friend has it and says it doesn't work and also because of the high price tag...I'm going to borrow it in the next couple of weeks to see how that works.


What you need to realise is that the effects from the light treatement are cumulative. E.g. you won't see any results (most people don't anyway) for the first few weeks, but then results start to kick in and you gradually see better and better results!! So it may simply be due to the fact you are just now starting to see positive results from the light therapy, not that you have increased the duration of exposure (although it may provide you with even greater improvement in a few weeks time)


This is very much possible...I'm going to finish off my 6 week light treatment and so far things are better than when I started which is an encouraging sign. However, I have to admit I expected better results.

In any case, "This thread has got to be one of the best on blue light treatment on the web!" says my friend.

#71 blacksheiladog

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 11:15 PM


In any case, "This thread has got to be one of the best on blue light treatment on the web!" says my friend.

Well, that makes me happy! -Dan



#72 mikeye

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Posted 29 October 2007 - 11:27 PM

QUOTE(blacksheiladog @ Oct 28 2007, 05:31 PM) View Post
I'm going to see my daughter this week, and ask how she is doing after about 6 weeks with two of the ebay lights. Let you know..


Hi Dan,

How is your daughter responding to the ebay lights?

#73 blacksheiladog

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 05:13 PM

QUOTE(mikeye @ Oct 29 2007, 10:27 PM) View Post
QUOTE(blacksheiladog @ Oct 28 2007, 05:31 PM) View Post
I'm going to see my daughter this week, and ask how she is doing after about 6 weeks with two of the ebay lights. Let you know..


Hi Dan,

How is your daughter responding to the ebay lights?



I saw her yesterday. She is apparently responding to the lights, as her breakouts are almost non-existent. But remember she had the Levulan treatment 6 weeks ago which also gives substantial clearing benefits, so I cannot be certain. She says she is using the two 27 watt lights every day, but hates having to devote the 15 minutes of time to being under the lights each day. I feel very strongly that the tradeoff of being off antibiotics which used to be required is totally worth this inconvenience, so I encourage her to continue. I am glad to stop the antibiotics. I will be more interested in how these lights work for you, as you are more of a control study, not having had levulan treatments before hand.

Techguy: We need to invent some machine for use in a tanning salon type of place, for treatment at a much reduced cost. I picture the machine having high wattage 415 and 660 nm fluorescent tubes and mirrors, just like the tanning beds, with way more wattage than we get from our small fixtures. I would think the production cost would be far far less than Clearlight machines, and the fluor tubes much cheaper, and therefore treatments would be very cheap. It's a question of market for such a need. If these were in tanning salons, it could be an additional type of treatment they could offer besides simple tanning, and the outlets already exist in many cities.

-Dan

#74 Techguy

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 02:57 PM

The "tanning bed" approach is interesting. The ones I have seen use UV fluroescent tubes. It might be possible to replace the existing UV tubes with 420nm tubes and be done. The problem would be finding tubes that are the right length etc to fit the existing fixtures.

One could contact a maker of beds or a salon owning some of the beds and check out what tubes they use. Unfortunately, I am busy with work and can't afford the time to do the research.

Best of luck

#75 mikeye

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:38 PM

QUOTE(Techguy @ Oct 31 2007, 04:57 PM) View Post
The "tanning bed" approach is interesting. The ones I have seen use UV fluroescent tubes. It might be possible to replace the existing UV tubes with 420nm tubes and be done. The problem would be finding tubes that are the right length etc to fit the existing fixtures.

One could contact a maker of beds or a salon owning some of the beds and check out what tubes they use. Unfortunately, I am busy with work and can't afford the time to do the research.

Best of luck


Wow...the "tanning bed" approach would be a lot of work and investment. The desktop lamps really aren't that bad in my opinion...just switch the light on and lay down next to it.

#76 mikeye

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 03:33 PM

Just a heads up for people interested in purchase the cheap 2x9W aqualight...I realize that it gets very, very hot after about 15-20 mins of usage. It wasn't like this when I first started using it.

#77 veridis quo

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 12:03 PM

Ok, this is a bit of a departure...

Is there a way to fit square pin CFL inside fixtures taking edison screw configuration?

Basically, there are actinic 03 CFLs; these sound PERFECT. However, they're obviously not integrated; is it possible to get a ballast and an edison screw which would then work in a normal run of the mill fixture??? I have no idea how to go about doing this, and the Internet is completely useless, and it's just confusing me further.

This page: http://www.bchydro.com/business/investigat...stigate746.html suggests that this this would work, but I'm totally confused about how I'd go about this.



#78 Techguy

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 12:06 AM

Screw-in ballasts do exist. The problem is that there are lots of different socket styles used by fluorescent tubes and finding a screw-in ballast for your particular tube may be a challenge.

An example of a screw-in ballast is shown here:
http://www.goodmart.com/products/74094.htm

I don't recall what bases are used on most of the PC Fluorescent actinic tubes, so I can't comment on whether the one above would match any of them.

Note, the tubes need support if they are much longer than about 6 inches.

Lastly, since acne treatment requires very high intensity light, it is really important not to waste any of it. This means that you want a well-shaped reflector redirecting all of the light from the tube onto your skin. That's hard to do without a fixture behind the bulb to hold the reflector in place. As long as you're going to have a fixture, you may as well use it to mount a separate ballast. I posted earlier a link to a site that sells low-cost kits for aquariums. They have everything you need, including the reflectors.

If you are determined to use a direct screw-in approach, then you would probably be better off with the EnLux reflector LED bulb, since it has an integral reflector. Its primary drawback is its price (~$120)

#79 mikeye

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 08:57 PM

QUOTE(veridis quo @ Nov 5 2007, 02:03 PM) View Post
Ok, this is a bit of a departure...

Is there a way to fit square pin CFL inside fixtures taking edison screw configuration?

Basically, there are actinic 03 CFLs; these sound PERFECT. However, they're obviously not integrated; is it possible to get a ballast and an edison screw which would then work in a normal run of the mill fixture??? I have no idea how to go about doing this, and the Internet is completely useless, and it's just confusing me further.

This page: http://www.bchydro.com/business/investigat...stigate746.html suggests that this this would work, but I'm totally confused about how I'd go about this.


I actually looked into this myself...not a bad alternative. But I couldn't figure it out either...

#80 blacksheiladog

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 10:06 PM

Techguy, have you tried any higher wattage fluor fixtures like the aquarium light setup yet? -Dan

Mikeye has received the 2 ebay lamps and will be testing them the next month or two!





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