129 replies to this topic

[mikeye]

Here's what the ebay seller's light looks like without the fixture:

Hey Dan, the pics arent working.

Upload using http://tinypic.com/ it's great

[blacksheiladog]

Here's what the ebay seller's light looks like without the fixture:

Hey Dan, the pics arent working.

Upload using http://tinypic.com/ it's great

I guess pics have to be reviewed before allowed on a post. Maybe they will show up tomorrow....

[Techguy]

Let me see if I can shed some light on the blue vs violet question (sorry for the pun).

Wavelengths at and below 420nm should indeed look violet to the normal eye (not necessarily to cameras). The confusion with blue can stem from multiple factors.

1. Some people don't bother making a distinction between blue and violet in speech and writing. They will call a color blue and only mention violet if you specifically ask them which it is.

2. The human eye perceives a mix of hues as a "color". If you mix some longer wavelengths in with the violet, the eye will see it as blue or even something else, depending on the mix. (after all, some mixes appear as white). The spectrum chart you referenced at, http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/seventh/phitld15.gif
shows a big spike near 430nm. That spike would be enough to make the light look more bluish, as anything above 420 will add a more blue component and the spike is both above 420 and large. In addition, there is a big spike at 550nm. Thus I would expect that light to look something OTHER than violet. That does NOT mean it does not contain lots of violet light, just that the combination of all the hues appears to the human eye as something non-violet. Also, those spikes are in a region where the eye is much more sensitive, thus the light will appear brighter than a pure 420nm light, even though it is not more effective at treating acne than a dimmer appearing pure violet lamp.

[blacksheiladog]

Let me see if I can shed some light on the blue vs violet question (sorry for the pun).

Wavelengths at and below 420nm should indeed look violet to the normal eye (not necessarily to cameras). The confusion with blue can stem from multiple factors.

1. Some people don't bother making a distinction between blue and violet in speech and writing. They will call a color blue and only mention violet if you specifically ask them which it is.

2. The human eye perceives a mix of hues as a "color". If you mix some longer wavelengths in with the violet, the eye will see it as blue or even something else, depending on the mix. (after all, some mixes appear as white). The spectrum chart you referenced at, http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/seventh/phitld15.gif
shows a big spike near 430nm. That spike would be enough to make the light look more bluish, as anything above 420 will add a more blue component and the spike is both above 420 and large. In addition, there is a big spike at 550nm. Thus I would expect that light to look something OTHER than violet. That does NOT mean it does not contain lots of violet light, just that the combination of all the hues appears to the human eye as something non-violet. Also, those spikes are in a region where the eye is much more sensitive, thus the light will appear brighter than a pure 420nm light, even though it is not more effective at treating acne than a dimmer appearing pure violet lamp.

Thanks for that info. I wondered if the little "spikes" would have much effect on how the light would look. It is definitely more blue than violet, but in staring at it for a few moments, I woud have to say there is a violet component, just not really strong. But as you say, each of us has different color cones in the eye, and especially near the edge of our ability to see there will be differences in what we think we see.

also, the ebay guy said the spectrum chart for his light was identical to the one you reference above (ledmuseum), but he has not yet sent the chart to me. I presume that even among true actinic 03 light manufactureres, the spectrum might not be identical? -Dan

[mikeye]

Yeah this light is very hard to get in 420nm...

Well almost into my 3rd week now and things are about the same maybe slightly better...but that's probably because of the benzoil peroxide. I said id give it bout 6 weeks so I'm 1/3 way there. Let's hope week 3, I'll see some improvement.

[blacksheiladog]

Mikeye: Are you using only the 2X 9W lights right now? Are you ordering a stronger set of fluor actinic lights? I have the feeling, but cannot prove it, that 9 W is maybe not strong enough to penetrate the skin very deeply. I saw my daughter yesterday, and she is clear ad the moment, and two weeks ago, was having trouble with intermittent breakouts, however, we don't have enough data to be sure yet. She is using the 2x 27W lights in a desktop fixture each day, as far as I know. She has the lights about 8 inches from her face, on both sides, sort of aimed at angles from above and to the side. -Dan

[mikeye]

Mikeye: Are you using only the 2X 9W lights right now? Are you ordering a stronger set of fluor actinic lights? I have the feeling, but cannot prove it, that 9 W is maybe not strong enough to penetrate the skin very deeply. I saw my daughter yesterday, and she is clear ad the moment, and two weeks ago, was having trouble with intermittent breakouts, however, we don't have enough data to be sure yet. She is using the 2x 27W lights in a desktop fixture each day, as far as I know. She has the lights about 8 inches from her face, on both sides, sort of aimed at angles from above and to the side. -Dan

Hey Dan,

I'm still using the 2X9w right now and will be for another 2 more weeks. I just want to see how things turn out using this setup. I have it setup so I'm like 1 inch away from the bulbs, to increase the intensity, and yes it does get warm but not hot.

Btw, when you purchased your setup from the ebay member you also purchased an extra bulb along with the original package correct?

[veridis quo]

I've been thinking about actinics for a while now, and it seems to me that they indeed are the best bet. My question though: would the effect be 'stackable?' I really like the small 9w X 2 footprint, and would prefer it to anything else. Would three of those (for a total of 9w X 6) be as effective as, for example, beautyskin's 15w X 3? I don't see a reason as to why they wouldn't be, but I am far from an expert on this...

[blacksheiladog]

Mikeye: Are you using only the 2X 9W lights right now? Are you ordering a stronger set of fluor actinic lights? I have the feeling, but cannot prove it, that 9 W is maybe not strong enough to penetrate the skin very deeply. I saw my daughter yesterday, and she is clear ad the moment, and two weeks ago, was having trouble with intermittent breakouts, however, we don't have enough data to be sure yet. She is using the 2x 27W lights in a desktop fixture each day, as far as I know. She has the lights about 8 inches from her face, on both sides, sort of aimed at angles from above and to the side. -Dan

Hey Dan,

I'm still using the 2X9w right now and will be for another 2 more weeks. I just want to see how things turn out using this setup. I have it setup so I'm like 1 inch away from the bulbs, to increase the intensity, and yes it does get warm but not hot.

Btw, when you purchased your setup from the ebay member you also purchased an extra bulb along with the original package correct?

I paid $193.00 at auction for the light fixture, and that was much higher than the usual auction price range of $125-150.00. If you look at final auction prices, they can be as low as $100 or over $200, so maybe the guy felt bad for me because I received a box with the fixture and two bulbs were included. Maybe he gives everyone an additional bulb as part of the deal, or maybe someone in shipping made a mistake in my shipment, not sure. In any case, if you buy the light, he will either give you or sell you an extra bulb.

[blacksheiladog]

I've been thinking about actinics for a while now, and it seems to me that they indeed are the best bet. My question though: would the effect be 'stackable?' I really like the small 9w X 2 footprint, and would prefer it to anything else. Would three of those (for a total of 9w X 6) be as effective as, for example, beautyskin's 15w X 3? I don't see a reason as to why they wouldn't be, but I am far from an expert on this...

It "seems" that these 420 nm lights are helping, and I personally believe this technology is effective, provided you get enough intensity at the right frequency for the correct duration (i.e., daily, twice weekly, etc). Light intensity is additive, so if you have 6 x 9 watt lights, roughly the same distance from your face, you are getting about the intensity of 3 x15 lights, in theory. What I wonder is whether there is a threshold of intensity, measured in watts or lumens per square centimeter, and I have no strong feeling what that number is. So yes, more lamps means more watts, just like 15 one watt lights equals one 15 watt light, more or less. What we really want is lots of watts, as close to the face as possible, with as little wasted light as possible. So fixtures with mirror backing, or white housings will help deliver all possible light to the target.


But the jury is still out on how much wattage is necessary. You might want to wait until Mikeye can confirm whether the 9 watt versions are doing anything, as we have mentioned before that you can get a lot more wattage (a 24 inch aquarium fixture with 2x 65 watts) packs a lot of punch. Or, you can be one of our "Thomas Edisons" and try your idea and report back so others can benefit from your experiments.

My daughter seems to be responding to the 2 x 27 watt bulbs we are trying, but I won't recommend it until we have had a few months of data. That's the frustrating part of this-- acne is not predictable, and something might "seem" to work, but in reality that was just one of those lower than average acne months, or stress levels were lower, or the moon was full..... However, after two or three months, one should be able to determine if a treatment method is working. -Dan

[mikeye]

But the jury is still out on how much wattage is necessary. You might want to wait until Mikeye can confirm whether the 9 watt versions are doing anything, as we have mentioned before that you can get a lot more wattage (a 24 inch aquarium fixture with 2x 65 watts) packs a lot of punch. Or, you can be one of our "Thomas Edisons" and try your idea and report back so others can benefit from your experiments.

My daughter seems to be responding to the 2 x 27 watt bulbs we are trying, but I won't recommend it until we have had a few months of data. That's the frustrating part of this-- acne is not predictable, and something might "seem" to work, but in reality that was just one of those lower than average acne months, or stress levels were lower, or the moon was full..... However, after two or three months, one should be able to determine if a treatment method is working. -Dan

Very true...acne is one of those things only time can tell...sometimes I wake up it's like wow must be the light and the next day it's like damn. So I said I will consistently use this light for 6 weeks:

- 10 minutes for the forehead
- 10 minutes left side of face and
- 10 minutes right side of face
- All roughly 2" from my face

I've completed my 2nd week and going into my 3rd week. As of right now, I wouldn't recommend this to others yet since I have not seen much improvement in the 2 weeks. I'll keep everyone posted.

[blacksheiladog]

Very true...acne is one of those things only time can tell...sometimes I wake up it's like wow must be the light and the next day it's like damn. So I said I will consistently use this light for 6 weeks:

- 10 minutes for the forehead
- 10 minutes left side of face and
- 10 minutes right side of face
- All roughly 2" from my face

I've completed my 2nd week and going into my 3rd week. As of right now, I wouldn't recommend this to others yet since I have not seen much improvement in the 2 weeks. I'll keep everyone posted.

Thank you. So far, my daughter is of the opinion that she is getting benefits from the 27W x 2 lights. We will also keep you informed as time passes.

[blacksheiladog]

I am continuing to inquire from folks who bought the ebay product. In keeping with full disclosure, I provide what I find out.

Here is one response:

"So far so good -- you doneed to use it everhyday -- but seems to be a good investment"


Another responded as follows:

"Actualy no it did not work at all. I used it for about 62 days and no improvement. I am actually in the processes of returning it. I do want to add, that I did try another aproach that you might of heard of over the internet. Its a book called acne free in 3 days. I know its sounds to good to be true, but man it did wonders for me. I have been suffering from acne for over 6 years and nothing has worked as well as this has. I would say I am about 85-95% clear now. I had BAD acne the deep pulse kind. I completed the system about 3-4 weeks ago. Since I have finished I have been only getting very very small surface little pimples but man my face is looking good. If you decide to do this program I do want to tell you that I did follow the steps exactly as stated, and am doing the post steps as well which includes taking suppliments. The system basically is just a cleansing of your body by undergoing a fruit fast for 3 days. I hope I have been of any help and I recomend the program, you have nothing to lose."


FYI... I have several more inquries I am waiting of from other buyers. Bear in mind, my daughter is using 2x the lamps, and I assume these buyers were using only one lamp. we also do not know how close they are placing the lamp.

[mikeye]

I am continuing to inquire from folks who bought the ebay product. In keeping with full disclosure, I provide what I find out.

Here is one response:

"So far so good -- you doneed to use it everhyday -- but seems to be a good investment"


Another responded as follows:

"Actualy no it did not work at all. I used it for about 62 days and no improvement. I am actually in the processes of returning it. I do want to add, that I did try another aproach that you might of heard of over the internet. Its a book called acne free in 3 days. I know its sounds to good to be true, but man it did wonders for me. I have been suffering from acne for over 6 years and nothing has worked as well as this has. I would say I am about 85-95% clear now. I had BAD acne the deep pulse kind. I completed the system about 3-4 weeks ago. Since I have finished I have been only getting very very small surface little pimples but man my face is looking good. If you decide to do this program I do want to tell you that I did follow the steps exactly as stated, and am doing the post steps as well which includes taking suppliments. The system basically is just a cleansing of your body by undergoing a fruit fast for 3 days. I hope I have been of any help and I recomend the program, you have nothing to lose."


FYI... I have several more inquries I am waiting of from other buyers. Bear in mind, my daughter is using 2x the lamps, and I assume these buyers were using only one lamp. we also do not know how close they are placing the lamp.

Great stuff Dan,

I don't know about the acne free in 3 days approach...but what I noticed yesterday is that the guy's Acne Lamps arent selling! There was an auction that ended yesterday for $89.99 with 0 bids!

Anyways, I think these lamps are effective only if people respond well to sunlight and if the person doesn't then I dont see an benefits from these lamps.

[Techguy]

Responding to the question from Veridis Quo about the addititive effect of lamps:
Blacksheiladog replied, "So yes, more lamps means more watts, just like 15 one watt lights equals one 15 watt light, more or less. What we really want is lots of watts, as close to the face as possible, with as little wasted light as possible. So fixtures with mirror backing, or white housings will help deliver all possible light to the target."

Blacksheiladog is correct, with one minor technical clarification.

If you add the actual optical output power of lamps and get them all directed at your skin the effect is addititive. The wattage, though, that you guys are using is the input wattage, ie. power consumption. The output wattage is a fraction of that, with the rest turned into heat. In some cases the difference between input wattage and output power varies with the size of the lamp - in that case the output power would not be additive. For example a 150w incandescent bulb is more efficient than a 50w bulb, so a single 150w bulb yields a lot more light than three 50w incandescent bulbs.

Fortunately, with most fluorescent and LED lamps the effficiency is roughly constant so long as you are using bulbs of similar technology/construction. So despite my wordy reply, Veridis Quo and Blacksheiladog are correct; three of the mini-aquarium lights at 3x18w=56watts should provide roughly the same (or slightly more) light power than one of the BeautySkin's if they use 3x15w bulbs (but don't BeautySkin's use up to 6 bulbs?).

The key, though, as blacksheiladog notes, is in successfully getting all the light directed onto the skin (at approximately a direct-on angle if possible). Two lights are easy - beyond that may get cumbersome. Using reflectors helps a lot. I fiddled with the mini-aquarium light the other day and found that adding aluminum foil reflector extensions to the sides created a brighter smaller light pattern when I aimed it at a wall from close up. Even bright white styrofoam is a good reflector and is easy to work with. Get clever and creative!

Quick note to anyone planning on buying the mini-aquarium light. You probably know that need to order a 2nd actinic-blue tube for $5 as it comes with one blue and one white. For yet another $5 extra you can order a 2nd white tube. Then when you retire it from acne use, you can reconfigure it for 2 white tubes and have a great little utility light - it's very bright for its size and runs fairly cool.

P.S. I spoke to Katherine at Sci-Art-Global again and urged her to speed up getting the spotlight version of the Enlux blue LEDs. Although expensive (I guess they will be ~$150, $30 more than the LED flood), they should provide an intense easily aimable beam that puts a full 1.8w of output power (~equivilent to a 20w flourescent bulb) right onto a small area. While "20w flourescent equivilent" may seem little, the fact that you really get all the light where you want it, probably makes it equivilent to as much as twice that.

[mikeye]

If you add the actual optical output power of lamps and get them all directed at your skin the effect is addititive. The wattage, though, that you guys are using is the input wattage, ie. power consumption. The output wattage is a fraction of that, with the rest turned into heat.

So would a 15W (input) compact flourecent lamp have more output than a 15W (input) tube lamp?

[blacksheiladog]

If you add the actual optical output power of lamps and get them all directed at your skin the effect is addititive. The wattage, though, that you guys are using is the input wattage, ie. power consumption. The output wattage is a fraction of that, with the rest turned into heat.

So would a 15W (input) compact flourecent lamp have more output than a 15W (input) tube lamp?

Building on Techguy's post above, it sounds like "generally" as long as you are talking about the same type of light source (fluorescent) it does not matter if it is in a tube or the desk lamp bulb. Fluor watts are all basically equal. BUT the only difference between a small fluor bulb and a larger tube would be that a longer tube puts out a total of 15 watts over its whole length, meaning that at any point in the length of the tube, you are not getting the total wattage right at that point. Techguy may know more, but I presume that if you taped up half the fluor tube with black tape, and if the tube was 15 watts, then you are only getting 7 1/2W from the remaining half that can shine. So from our standpoint, for purposes of treating acne on the face, for example, the best bet is to get the most watts in the smallest tube/bulb that can be focused on the face area. The ebay product, if you had two bulbs, delivers 54 watts in two small lamps. That's why I think the aquarium 24 inch fixture with two 65 watt "tubes" (total 130 watts in a fixture only 2 feet long) is about as big as one would want to go and still have the light mostly focused on the affected area and not wasted elsewhere. I sent you a PM on something I want to try to do. -Dan

[blacksheiladog]

The key, though, as blacksheiladog notes, is in successfully getting all the light directed onto the skin (at approximately a direct-on angle if possible). Two lights are easy - beyond that may get cumbersome. Using reflectors helps a lot. I fiddled with the mini-aquarium light the other day and found that adding aluminum foil reflector extensions to the sides created a brighter smaller light pattern when I aimed it at a wall from close up. Even bright white styrofoam is a good reflector and is easy to work with. Get clever and creative!

Excellent points in the post, Techguy, and a great idea regarding the foil. I will put this on the inside of my daughter's desk lamp fixtures when I see her next time. I presume foil would be better even than a white paint backing.

Also, regarding Mikeye's comment about the light therapy not working unless you benefit from sunlight--since it has been proven that blue light is toxic to the P-acnes bacteria, would'nt everyone who suffers from acne be helped if exposed to sufficient intensity of this light frequency?

Thanks again. -Dan

[mikeye]

Also, regarding Mikeye's comment about the light therapy not working unless you benefit from sunlight--since it has been proven that blue light is toxic to the P-acnes bacteria, would'nt everyone who suffers from acne be helped if exposed to sufficient intensity of this light frequency?

That does make sense. Theorically, it should work for everyone. If the Blu-U acne light works for so many (also cost so much!) then these home made acne lights should as well. I really believe it's just the intensity and if we can find the correct wattage that is effective then we should be good!

[Techguy]

My two cent's worth on the various questions raised in the last couple of posts:

1) Is a 15w compact equivilent to a 15w tube fluorescent? Blacksheiladog is correct, both have about the same total light output, but the compact one MAY do a better job of getting all that light onto your face. While, the bulb efficiency does vary some due to the geometry (linear tubes have a slight edge here), internal construction, and particualar mix of phosphors used, the biggest difference will be in how well the fixture and bulb shape work to get the light aimed where you want it.

(Note - Blacksheiladog is also correct about a 15w bulb being effectively only 7.5 w if you tape up half of it - or if half of it is shining the light on your wall instead of your face)

2) I'm not sure that covering existing white reflectors with foil will help as much as extending them will. White reflects just about all the light, but scatters it evenly and widely, while the foil reflects the rays back at the same angle they arrived (making for more glare but a more focused/aimed light). If you position the lamp really close to your face, the light scattered by the white reflector probably still hits your face. If there is room for some to miss, though, then adding additional reflectors to catch and redirect the light that otherwise would miss your face helps a lot. That means adding length and width to the reflector so it extends beyond the bulb and aims the wayward beams back at your face. Even the added reflector can be white if there is no way for the scattered light reflected off of it to miss your face (i.e. it's so close to your face that there's no way out).

Note: Covering an existing white relector with foil makes its geometry/angles much more critical. You might improve the result or accidentally end up reflecting much of the light away from where you want it. You also don't want to reflect too much right back at the bulb as it tends to reduce the total output a bit. It helps to have lots of patience and an understanding of the basic principles to fiddle with reflectors successfully.


3) Regarding whether blue light works only on people whose acne is sensitive to sunlight and/or whether it should work on everyone, there are various factors to consider:

i) The theraputic blue lights contain much more of the critical wavelengths near 410nm than does natural sunlight. Thus it's hard to compare results of natural sunlight exposure with the exposure under professional or home-built blue light units.

ii) We don't know if the P.acnes bacteria is the root cause for everyone's acne. Some people may have differing causes. (note for example, whiteheads and blackheads are often not the result the action of P.acnes and do not respond well to blue light)

iii) We also don't know if the degree of production of "coporphyrin III" is the same in the P.acnes in all people. Coporphyrin III is the porphyrin that reacts with the blue light to produce the bacteria-killing oxygen.

Best of luck