3369 replies to this topic

[AutonomousOne1980]

i helped start this bubble now im going to bust it.

do NOT take extra omega 3 supplements, they decrease natural killer cells, which are responsible for getting rid of mutated cells that start tumor growth, i can say this from experiance and provide studies to support the claim.

I was an advocate of fish oil some two years back and took it regularly for two years, initially at very high doses.

this was a big mistake, now i have a liver tumor and the suspect at fault was my consumption of fish oil.





2008 May 14. Links
Leukocyte numbers and function in subjects eating n-3 enriched foods: selective depression of natural killer cell levels

INTRODUCTION: While consumption of omega-3 long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids (n-3 LCPUFA) has been recommended for those at risk of inflammatory disease such as rheumatoid arthritis, the mechanism of their anti-inflammatory effect remains to be clearly defined, particularly in relation to the dose and type of n-3 LCPUFA. The objective of this study was to determine whether varying the levels of n-3 LCPUFA in erythrocyte membrane lipids, following dietary supplementation, is associated with altered numbers and function of circulating leukocytes conducive to protection against inflammation. METHODS: In a double-blind and placebo-controlled study, 44 healthy subjects aged 23 to 63 years consumed either standard or n-3 LCPUFA-enriched versions of typical processed foods, the latter allowing a target daily consumption of 1 gram n-3 LCPUFA. After six months, peripheral blood leukocyte and subpopulation proportions and numbers were assessed by flow cytometry. Leukocytes were also examined for lymphoproliferation and cytokine production, neutrophil chemotaxis, chemokinesis, bactericidal, adherence and iodination activity. Erythrocytes were analyzed for fatty-acid content. RESULTS: Erythrocyte n-3 LCPUFA levels were higher and absolute leukocyte and lymphocyte numbers were lower in subjects consuming n-3 enriched foods than in controls. There were no changes in the number of neutrophils, monocytes, T cells (CD3+), T-cell subsets (CD4+, CD8+) and B cells (CD19+). However, natural killer (NK) (CD3-CD16+CD56+) cell numbers were lower in n-3 supplemented subjects than in controls and were inversely related to the amount of eicosapentaenoic acid or docosahexaenoic acid in erythrocytes. No significant correlations were found with respect to lymphocyte lymphoproliferation and production of IFN-gamma and IL-2, but lymphotoxin production was higher with greater n-3 LCPUFA membrane content. Similarly, neutrophil chemotaxis, chemokinesis, bactericidal activity and adherence did not vary with changes in erythrocyte n-3 LCPUFA levels, but the iodination reaction was reduced with higher n-3 LCPUFA content. CONCLUSION: The data show that regular long-term consumption of n-3 enriched foods leads to lower numbers of NK cells and neutrophil iodination activity but higher lymphotoxin production by lymphocytes. These changes are consistent with decreased inflammatory reaction and tissue damage seen in patients with inflammatory disorders receiving n-3 LCPUFA supplementation.









1: J Nutr. 2009 Aug;139(8):1588-94. Epub 2009 Jun 23. Links
Fish oil-fed mice have impaired resistance to influenza infection.Schwerbrock NM, Karlsson EA, Shi Q, Sheridan PA, Beck MA.
Department of Nutrition, The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, NC 27599, USA.

Dietary fish oils, rich in (n-3) PUFA, including eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid, have been shown to have antiinflammatory properties. Although the antiinflammatory properties of fish oil may be beneficial during a chronic inflammatory illness, the same antiinflammatory properties can suppress the inflammatory responses necessary to combat acute viral infection. Given that (n-3) fatty acid-rich fish oil supplementation is on the rise and with the increasing threat of an influenza pandemic, we tested the effect of fish oil feeding for 2 wk on the immune response to influenza virus infection. Male C57BL/6 mice fed either a menhaden fish oil/corn oil diet (4 g fish oil:1 g corn oil, wt:wt at 5 g/100 g diet) or a control corn oil diet were infected with influenza A/PuertoRico/8/34 and analyzed for lung pathology and immune function. Although fish oil-fed mice had lower lung inflammation compared with controls, fish oil feeding also resulted in a 40% higher mortality rate, a 70% higher lung viral load at d 7 post infection, and a prolonged recovery period following infection. Although splenic natural killer (NK) cell activity was suppressed in fish oil-fed mice, lung NK activity was not affected. Additionally, lungs of infected fish oil-fed mice had significantly fewer CD8+ T cells and decreased mRNA expression of macrophage inflammatory protein-1-alpha, tumor necrosis factor-alpha, and interleukin-6. These results suggest that the antiinflammatory properties of fish oil feeding can alter the immune response to influenza infection, resulting in increased morbidity and mortality.

Edited by AutonomousOne1980, 15 October 2009 - 03:57 PM.

[Stephen01]

i helped start this bubble now im going to bust it.

do NOT take extra omega 3 supplements, they decrease natural killer cells, which are responsible for getting rid of mutated cells that start tumor growth, i can say this from experiance and provide studies to support the claim.

I was an advocate of fish oil some two years back and took it regularly for two years, initially at very high doses.

this was a big mistake, now i have a liver tumor and the suspect at fault was my consumption of fish oil.

Unless you really were taking some serious mega doses for a prolonged period I'd say it's unlikely that the fish oil had to do with the cause of your liver tumor. Omega 3 supplements and fish oil are among the top supplements taken by people worldwide so if it had any kind of real drastic tumor causing effect a lot more people taking fish oil would be getting tumors.

It's important to remember though to keep your Omega 3 levels proportional with your Omega 6 and 9. If you were taking so much Omega 3 that it way exceeded your Omega 6 intake then possibly such an increase in the anti-inflammatory property may have adverse effects. Most people eating a Westernized diet however are severely deficient in Omega 3 consumption so if you keep your intake balanced and your not taking like 4 or 5 tablespoons of fish oil a day I don't think there's much cause for concern. Because if you let your Omega 6 ratio get out of balance then the breeding ground for inflammation will just present new problems.

The greater majority of people out there don't take any Omega 3 supplements at all while eating mostly a high Omega 6 contained diet and yet they don't appear to have any greater immunity to the influenza and other viruses than me because it's been several years since the last time I had any kind of flu or even much of a cold. I'm around others in my family that seem to catch every bug that goes around but my immune system seems to of gotten fairly strong so I'm usually the last person in my family to ever catch anything. So obviously simply taking omega 3 supplements doesn't seem to be putting me more at risk of a viral infection since I'm the only one in my family that takes fish oil and eats a higher Omega 3 diet.

Edited by Stephen01, 16 October 2009 - 11:08 PM.

[wibble]

i helped start this bubble now im going to bust it.

do NOT take extra omega 3 supplements, they decrease natural killer cells, which are responsible for getting rid of mutated cells that start tumor growth, i can say this from experiance and provide studies to support the claim.

I was an advocate of fish oil some two years back and took it regularly for two years, initially at very high doses.

this was a big mistake, now i have a liver tumor and the suspect at fault was my consumption of fish oil.

Unless you really were taking some serious mega doses for a prolonged period I'd say it's unlikely that the fish oil had to do with the cause of your liver tumor. Omega 3 supplements and fish oil are among the top supplements taken by people worldwide so if it had any kind of real drastic tumor causing effect a lot more people taking fish oil would be getting tumors.

It's important to remember though to keep your Omega 3 levels proportional with your Omega 6 and 9. If you were taking so much Omega 3 that it way exceeded your Omega 6 intake then possibly such an increase in the anti-inflammatory property may have adverse effects. Most people eating a Westernized diet however are severely deficient in Omega 3 consumption so if you keep your intake balanced and your not taking like 4 or 5 tablespoons of fish oil a day I don't think there's much cause for concern. Because if you let your Omega 6 ratio get out of balance then the breeding ground for inflammation will just present new problems.

The greater majority of people out there don't take any Omega 3 supplements at all while eating mostly a high Omega 6 contained diet and yet they don't appear to have any greater immunity to the influenza and other viruses than me because it's been several years since the last time I had any kind of flu or even much of a cold. I'm around others in my family that seem to catch every bug that goes around but my immune system seems to of gotten fairly strong so I'm usually the last person in my family to ever catch anything. So obviously simply taking omega 3 supplements doesn't seem to be putting me more at risk of a viral infection since I'm the only one in my family that takes fish oil and eats a higher Omega 3 diet.

I also wonder (not knowing much about this stuff), if natural killer cells could be reduced as not as many are actually needed (due to benefits of o3). It's also hard to figure out the link with mice as well, as we wouldn't be bothering with o3 supplements if we all had decent diets for a while. People are only taking supplements as we live just rubbish lives with regards to our natural surroundings (diet, health, time outside etc). This is why I find the whole area so mindboggling, and actually dangerous. Feels like you can't accept anything anyone says . In the end I just try and eat healthy all round now as its too complex, and top up o3 if I haven't had any fish for a while.

[AutonomousOne1980]

i helped start this bubble now im going to bust it.

do NOT take extra omega 3 supplements, they decrease natural killer cells, which are responsible for getting rid of mutated cells that start tumor growth, i can say this from experiance and provide studies to support the claim.

I was an advocate of fish oil some two years back and took it regularly for two years, initially at very high doses.

this was a big mistake, now i have a liver tumor and the suspect at fault was my consumption of fish oil.

Unless you really were taking some serious mega doses for a prolonged period I'd say it's unlikely that the fish oil had to do with the cause of your liver tumor. Omega 3 supplements and fish oil are among the top supplements taken by people worldwide so if it had any kind of real drastic tumor causing effect a lot more people taking fish oil would be getting tumors.

It's important to remember though to keep your Omega 3 levels proportional with your Omega 6 and 9. If you were taking so much Omega 3 that it way exceeded your Omega 6 intake then possibly such an increase in the anti-inflammatory property may have adverse effects. Most people eating a Westernized diet however are severely deficient in Omega 3 consumption so if you keep your intake balanced and your not taking like 4 or 5 tablespoons of fish oil a day I don't think there's much cause for concern. Because if you let your Omega 6 ratio get out of balance then the breeding ground for inflammation will just present new problems.

The greater majority of people out there don't take any Omega 3 supplements at all while eating mostly a high Omega 6 contained diet and yet they don't appear to have any greater immunity to the influenza and other viruses than me because it's been several years since the last time I had any kind of flu or even much of a cold. I'm around others in my family that seem to catch every bug that goes around but my immune system seems to of gotten fairly strong so I'm usually the last person in my family to ever catch anything. So obviously simply taking omega 3 supplements doesn't seem to be putting me more at risk of a viral infection since I'm the only one in my family that takes fish oil and eats a higher Omega 3 diet.

I also wonder (not knowing much about this stuff), if natural killer cells could be reduced as not as many are actually needed (due to benefits of o3). It's also hard to figure out the link with mice as well, as we wouldn't be bothering with o3 supplements if we all had decent diets for a while. People are only taking supplements as we live just rubbish lives with regards to our natural surroundings (diet, health, time outside etc). This is why I find the whole area so mindboggling, and actually dangerous. Feels like you can't accept anything anyone says . In the end I just try and eat healthy all round now as its too complex, and top up o3 if I haven't had any fish for a while.

our bodies make epa and dha out of ala, which is obtainable from many foods. while the benefits of fish oil have to do with the existence of epa and dha that have been preformed independant of the body, there fore they suggest that this is beneficial to the body, but i believe their may be a reason why these substances are regulated by the body, because it knows how much you need. another thing with inflammation and manipulating its response, you are better off finding and dealing with the cause of inflammation in the first place, and that may be bacteria and the injurious by products that it makes to clog pores and mess up the functioning of the sebaceous gland.


i believe if you want to manipulate your bodys inflammatory response, just consume less omega 6, but do not take fish oil.

in fact i now belive most animal food products to be unnecessary as plants have fiber which is need to keep up the populations of bacteria in the intestine, among thousands of other things for health. Animal protein and food products plae in comparison to plant foods.

[AutonomousOne1980]

i helped start this bubble now im going to bust it.

do NOT take extra omega 3 supplements, they decrease natural killer cells, which are responsible for getting rid of mutated cells that start tumor growth, i can say this from experiance and provide studies to support the claim.

I was an advocate of fish oil some two years back and took it regularly for two years, initially at very high doses.

this was a big mistake, now i have a liver tumor and the suspect at fault was my consumption of fish oil.

Unless you really were taking some serious mega doses for a prolonged period I'd say it's unlikely that the fish oil had to do with the cause of your liver tumor. Omega 3 supplements and fish oil are among the top supplements taken by people worldwide so if it had any kind of real drastic tumor causing effect a lot more people taking fish oil would be getting tumors.

It's important to remember though to keep your Omega 3 levels proportional with your Omega 6 and 9. If you were taking so much Omega 3 that it way exceeded your Omega 6 intake then possibly such an increase in the anti-inflammatory property may have adverse effects. Most people eating a Westernized diet however are severely deficient in Omega 3 consumption so if you keep your intake balanced and your not taking like 4 or 5 tablespoons of fish oil a day I don't think there's much cause for concern. Because if you let your Omega 6 ratio get out of balance then the breeding ground for inflammation will just present new problems.

The greater majority of people out there don't take any Omega 3 supplements at all while eating mostly a high Omega 6 contained diet and yet they don't appear to have any greater immunity to the influenza and other viruses than me because it's been several years since the last time I had any kind of flu or even much of a cold. I'm around others in my family that seem to catch every bug that goes around but my immune system seems to of gotten fairly strong so I'm usually the last person in my family to ever catch anything. So obviously simply taking omega 3 supplements doesn't seem to be putting me more at risk of a viral infection since I'm the only one in my family that takes fish oil and eats a higher Omega 3 diet.

I also wonder (not knowing much about this stuff), if natural killer cells could be reduced as not as many are actually needed (due to benefits of o3). It's also hard to figure out the link with mice as well, as we wouldn't be bothering with o3 supplements if we all had decent diets for a while. People are only taking supplements as we live just rubbish lives with regards to our natural surroundings (diet, health, time outside etc). This is why I find the whole area so mindboggling, and actually dangerous. Feels like you can't accept anything anyone says . In the end I just try and eat healthy all round now as its too complex, and top up o3 if I haven't had any fish for a while.

there were other factors that contributed to the tumors development nop doubt, but fish oil was the main contributer and i have the science that supports it, so as you can see im not making this up. Polyunsaturated acids also go rancid very quickly, and have many oxidants that cause damage to proteins, like dna.

when i started taking fish oil i bought crappy stuff from the supermarket and yes i took alot, i started taking maybe two when i noted benefits, then i upped it quite a bit, then benefits were lost, then i learned about good vs bad fish oil then bought better stuff and after three months of high doses, took a "normal" suggested amount.

ths could have bdefinitly been enough to start the tumor cells, then continuing taking fish oil for the next two years could have kept the tumor growing, in addition to the stress i was already under that suppressed my immune systems ability to eradicate these abnormal cells.


i was also eating a high meat diet with little fruits and grains, so i wasnt getting very many antioxidants to protect me, stress hormones also interfere with melatonin production at night, and melatonin is the supposedly the most potent antioxidant there is, so thats how the stress i was under could have also contributed to this.

If someone takes a normal amount, isnt under massive stress, eats fruits and grains, then perhaps you wont see any problems for maybe 5-10 years, but i suggest you just not take it at all, its unnecessary.


What happens in the supplement world is that a good study comes out toting benefits, then jumps on the bandwagon of fast cash money making capitalistic feeding frenzy, before they even think that there may be any unknown dangers, the marketing of fish oil is somewhat biased, a mixture of bad science and lust for wealth.

Edited by AutonomousOne1980, 17 October 2009 - 12:38 PM.

[Stephen01]

our bodies make epa and dha out of ala, which is obtainable from many foods. while the benefits of fish oil have to do with the existence of epa and dha that have been preformed independant of the body, there fore they suggest that this is beneficial to the body, but i believe their may be a reason why these substances are regulated by the body, because it knows how much you need. another thing with inflammation and manipulating its response, you are better off finding and dealing with the cause of inflammation in the first place, and that may be bacteria and the injurious by products that it makes to clog pores and mess up the functioning of the sebaceous gland.


i believe if you want to manipulate your bodys inflammatory response, just consume less omega 6, but do not take fish oil.

in fact i now belive most animal food products to be unnecessary as plants have fiber which is need to keep up the populations of bacteria in the intestine, among thousands of other things for health. Animal protein and food products plae in comparison to plant foods.

Yes our bodies do make EPA and DHA from ALA but as with everything that requires conversion within your body you have a conversion ratio and for some the amount of ALA that is being converted to EPA or DHA may be much lower than others especially if your body is not functioning as well as it should be. Just like when you take for example 10,000 IU of beta carotene your bodies not going to actually make 10,000 IU of Vitamin A because the conversion ratio of beta carotene to Vitamin A is not 1:1. In fact for a lot of people the conversion ratio is very low. So in the same sense you may be able to get EPA and DHA simply from ALA but your body may not be making enough EPA and DHA to make any real impact on your current health condition.

I think the quality of fish oil you're taking is more important than anything else. Fish can be loaded with mercury when they're being harvested out of the ocean as well as a lot of the chemical processes they use to manufacture and "purify" the fish oil destroys the whole Omega's and antioxidants and vitamins from the fish. Then you hardly even know what kind of fish they're even using in some of them because they use several different sources. Personally I've started taking a new fish oil supplement made by New Chapter which is made from wild caught alaskan salmon and the quality seems to be very good. The amount of EPA and DHA per softgel is lower than what you normally find because the purity is much better.

You can see a video of the New Chapter fish oil here and they show how they harvest the fish and how theirs is different than the others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l2QmHDoWqo

http://www.newchapter.com/structure-functions/fish-oil

When you take high quality fish oil that is more in it's natural state it shouldn't be much different than eating fish on a regular basis and fish is a staple in many diets around world especially in Asia. Fish is something that we've been consuming as a primary food source for thousands of years so it's not something I worry about deterring my health when I know I'm getting it from a quality source.

Edited by Stephen01, 17 October 2009 - 01:10 PM.

[AutonomousOne1980]

our bodies make epa and dha out of ala, which is obtainable from many foods. while the benefits of fish oil have to do with the existence of epa and dha that have been preformed independant of the body, there fore they suggest that this is beneficial to the body, but i believe their may be a reason why these substances are regulated by the body, because it knows how much you need. another thing with inflammation and manipulating its response, you are better off finding and dealing with the cause of inflammation in the first place, and that may be bacteria and the injurious by products that it makes to clog pores and mess up the functioning of the sebaceous gland.


i believe if you want to manipulate your bodys inflammatory response, just consume less omega 6, but do not take fish oil.

in fact i now belive most animal food products to be unnecessary as plants have fiber which is need to keep up the populations of bacteria in the intestine, among thousands of other things for health. Animal protein and food products plae in comparison to plant foods.

Yes our bodies do make EPA and DHA from ALA but as with everything that requires conversion within your body you have a conversion ratio and for some the amount of ALA that is being converted to EPA or DHA may be much lower than others especially if your body is not functioning as well as it should be. Just like when you take for example 10,000 IU of beta carotene your bodies not going to actually make 10,000 IU of Vitamin A because the conversion ratio of beta carotene to Vitamin A is not 1:1. In fact for a lot of people the conversion ratio is very low. So in the same sense you may be able to get EPA and DHA simply from ALA but your body may not be making enough EPA and DHA to make any real impact on your current health condition.

I think the quality of fish oil you're taking is more important than anything else. Fish can be loaded with mercury when they're being harvested out of the ocean as well as a lot of the chemical processes they use to manufacture and "purify" the fish oil destroys the whole Omega's and antioxidants and vitamins from the fish. Then you hardly even know what kind of fish they're even using in some of them because they use several different sources. Personally I've started taking a new fish oil supplement made by New Chapter which is made from wild caught alaskan salmon and the quality seems to be very good. The amount of EPA and DHA per softgel is lower than what you normally find because the purity is much better.

You can see a video of the New Chapter fish oil here and they show how they harvest the fish and how theirs is different than the others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l2QmHDoWqo

http://www.newchapter.com/structure-functions/fish-oil

When you take high quality fish oil that is more in it's natural state it shouldn't be much different than eating fish on a regular basis and fish is a staple in many diets around world especially in Asia. Fish is something that we've been consuming as a primary food source for thousands of years so it's not something I worry about deterring my health when I know I'm getting it from a quality source.

perhaps something that has to be so processed for human consumption, we have to question whether it was even made for human consumption at all?

whatever, i posted the latest studies on fish oil/ omega 3 so there really is little room for debate, regardless of how long this thread is has no regard to what is real and true.

[Stephen01]

perhaps something that has to be so processed for human consumption, we have to question whether it was even made for human consumption at all?

whatever, i posted the latest studies on fish oil/ omega 3 so there really is little room for debate, regardless of how long this thread is has no regard to what is real and true.

I'm not sure what you're talking about in reference to something that has to be so processed for human consumption but like I said fish has been a staple in the diets of many cultures for thousands of years so when consumed in the right proportions should not pose any of these threats you're asserting from taking fish oil. Overdosing on most any vitamin, herb, Omega, nutrient, ect. usually can cause problems so fish oil should be treated in the same regard. If I overdose on Vitamin A I can cause myself lots of problems as well but that doesn't mean I need to stop getting any Vitamin A in my diet.

Those studies that you posted really should be taken with a grain of salt because although they did provide some interesting questions as to the safety of fish oil they're in no way conclusive because things like the quality of the fish oil used, the amount of fish oil used, the rancidy of the fish oil, the condition of the mice and people used in the study, ect all plays a role in the outcome of the results and results from one case study may be polar opposites in the next study. I agree that mega dosing fish oil likely isn't a good idea and could pose a health risk. I don't see those same health risks from taking a high quality natural fish oil source like the New Chapter one I linked which uses wild caught alaskan salmon in much lower doses in comparison to other fish oil supplements. Two gel caps of the New Chapter brand which is the recommended dose is only 500mg. I've been taken four a day however to get at least 1 gram of Omega 3 from fish oil a day because it helps with my skin.

If you want to get some more opinions on the studies you linked a good place for you to post about it would be on the imminst.org forums. I found a couple of threads real quick that were debating the dangers of taking fish oil on the basis of the studies you were posting before.

- first study is pretty interesting re: HDL levels. i actually may slightly cut back on my fish in-take and focus more on legumes like lentils. it seems some of it is genetic, as the prior poster suggests. but my HDL is on the low side and i eat a fair amount of fish.


- i don't see a control group in that last study, which would be kind of nice.
- i think you are confusing the fact that this study choose to use mice with a genetic profile that exhibited accelerated senescence and the fish oil happened to help it along the most out of the 4 oils. the mouse were already programmed for accelerated senescence, regardless of the oils.
- i don't know HOW MUCH worse the deposits were in the fish oil vs. the olive oil. the data isn't disclosed in this abstract.
- no sane person eats only 1 oil or 1 food only their entire life like some mouse in a lab study.
- it's not very surprising to me at least, that the olive oil was better than fish for amyloid plaques and overall health. but that doesn't mean fish oil by itself is worthless or very dangerous.

i lean towards the higher DHA fish oils becuz i think their value for brain/body health is pretty solid. but like any sane human begin, i recognize the importance of olive oil and put it on all my salads. i also take curcumin, nicotinic acid, and a few other things every now and then. india has a low incidence of alzheimers but a high level of type 2 diabetes. do what the indians do... eat curry.

assuming someone eats a healthy diet and a bit of fish oil is part of it, i don't see why the average person should be seriously alarmed by these studies. but i am not an expert on AApoAII either.

I'm not going to stop using fish oil. These studies were feeding huge amounts of oil, 4% of the diet, to mice who had a serious genetic defect. I would need 70 grams of fish oil to match these mice, and I don't even have a senescence acceleration gene defect. At present I take 2 grams of fish oil per day. If the study tells us anything, it's probably that oils with a high degree of unsaturation shouldn't make up a large part of our diet. Most of us are taking fish oil in a pharmacological rather than a nutritional dose.

EDIT: Ahem... a wee math error crept in. Make that 11 grams of fish oil to match the mice, as per Jay's post below. (No, I don't actually have a 16000 calorie diet.) I'm still not going to stop taking it, but I won't be megadosing on it either.

http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?sho...372&hl=fish

This Clement's guy clearly has a raw foods, anti-animals foods agenda. The guy is a nut case, and should be totally ignored. So much of what he says can be picked apart by anyone with a little time on their hands. Humans did not evolve on a vegan diet -- we ate animals, and fish. In fact, cultures that still eat mostly fish as their primary protein source appear to have the healthiest, longest lives. Common sense has mysteriously eluded this guy.

http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?sho...408&hl=fish

[AutonomousOne1980]

You suggest that the studies i provided in no way translate to the practice of taking fish oil supplements, but i ask you too take another look:

To quote one study, the exact finding was an inverse correlation with epa or dha in erythrocytes meaning the more epa or dha that was present, the lower the levels of natural killers cells were detected.

However, natural killer (NK) (CD3-CD16+CD56+) cell numbers were lower in n-3 supplemented subjects than in controls and were inversely related to the amount of eicosapentaenoic acid or docosahexaenoic acid in erythrocytes

This finding almost directly tranfers to the practice of fish oil consumption as fish oil contains preformed epa and dha, and will accomplish the same thing by boosting the levels of these substances, which is the very premise i have celebrated two years ago, this was supposed to be a good thing as it improved the inflammatory response by manipulating it.





better put, lack of omega 3's is most likely not the cause of acne, so i encourage people to go on to the next plan, and eating some fish is probably a safe practice, but taking the oil out of a fish for a health supplement, probably unnecessary.

the studies i posted should not be taken with a grain of salt, because this is documented reality, maybe not the entire reality as benefits were also documented no doubt as this is why the benefits are emphasized, and perhaps the downsides are buried.

Also, the knowledge that science gains is limited to what it can observe, they take snapshots of things to create an entire mapped out picture of something, say fish oils interactions of the body, we must admit that this map of "fish oil" is incomplete and will unfold with time. And fish oil in the form of a supplement, is even more incomplete.

It also takes alot of courage for me to come on here after help starting this very fish oil thread and say that it may have contributed to the development of my tumor, and even providing the exact mechanisms as to how it may have happened (the supression of natural killer cells) , not only have i made myself look like a fool, but ive gone as far as provide a solid argument that goes against everything i was excited about two years earlier, please, do not take my advice with a grain of salt.

perhaps something that has to be so processed for human consumption, we have to question whether it was even made for human consumption at all?

whatever, i posted the latest studies on fish oil/ omega 3 so there really is little room for debate, regardless of how long this thread is has no regard to what is real and true.

I'm not sure what you're talking about in reference to something that has to be so processed for human consumption but like I said fish has been a staple in the diets of many cultures for thousands of years so when consumed in the right proportions should not pose any of these threats you're asserting from taking fish oil. Overdosing on most any vitamin, herb, Omega, nutrient, ect. usually can cause problems so fish oil should be treated in the same regard. If I overdose on Vitamin A I can cause myself lots of problems as well but that doesn't mean I need to stop getting any Vitamin A in my diet.

Those studies that you posted really should be taken with a grain of salt because although they did provide some interesting questions as to the safety of fish oil they're in no way conclusive because things like the quality of the fish oil used, the amount of fish oil used, the rancidy of the fish oil, the condition of the mice and people used in the study, ect all plays a role in the outcome of the results and results from one case study may be polar opposites in the next study. I agree that mega dosing fish oil likely isn't a good idea and could pose a health risk. I don't see those same health risks from taking a high quality natural fish oil source like the New Chapter one I linked which uses wild caught alaskan salmon in much lower doses in comparison to other fish oil supplements. Two gel caps of the New Chapter brand which is the recommended dose is only 500mg. I've been taken four a day however to get at least 1 gram of Omega 3 from fish oil a day because it helps with my skin.

If you want to get some more opinions on the studies you linked a good place for you to post about it would be on the imminst.org forums. I found a couple of threads real quick that were debating the dangers of taking fish oil on the basis of the studies you were posting before.

- first study is pretty interesting re: HDL levels. i actually may slightly cut back on my fish in-take and focus more on legumes like lentils. it seems some of it is genetic, as the prior poster suggests. but my HDL is on the low side and i eat a fair amount of fish.


- i don't see a control group in that last study, which would be kind of nice.
- i think you are confusing the fact that this study choose to use mice with a genetic profile that exhibited accelerated senescence and the fish oil happened to help it along the most out of the 4 oils. the mouse were already programmed for accelerated senescence, regardless of the oils.
- i don't know HOW MUCH worse the deposits were in the fish oil vs. the olive oil. the data isn't disclosed in this abstract.
- no sane person eats only 1 oil or 1 food only their entire life like some mouse in a lab study.
- it's not very surprising to me at least, that the olive oil was better than fish for amyloid plaques and overall health. but that doesn't mean fish oil by itself is worthless or very dangerous.

i lean towards the higher DHA fish oils becuz i think their value for brain/body health is pretty solid. but like any sane human begin, i recognize the importance of olive oil and put it on all my salads. i also take curcumin, nicotinic acid, and a few other things every now and then. india has a low incidence of alzheimers but a high level of type 2 diabetes. do what the indians do... eat curry.

assuming someone eats a healthy diet and a bit of fish oil is part of it, i don't see why the average person should be seriously alarmed by these studies. but i am not an expert on AApoAII either.

I'm not going to stop using fish oil. These studies were feeding huge amounts of oil, 4% of the diet, to mice who had a serious genetic defect. I would need 70 grams of fish oil to match these mice, and I don't even have a senescence acceleration gene defect. At present I take 2 grams of fish oil per day. If the study tells us anything, it's probably that oils with a high degree of unsaturation shouldn't make up a large part of our diet. Most of us are taking fish oil in a pharmacological rather than a nutritional dose.

EDIT: Ahem... a wee math error crept in. Make that 11 grams of fish oil to match the mice, as per Jay's post below. (No, I don't actually have a 16000 calorie diet.) I'm still not going to stop taking it, but I won't be megadosing on it either.

http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?sho...372&hl=fish

This Clement's guy clearly has a raw foods, anti-animals foods agenda. The guy is a nut case, and should be totally ignored. So much of what he says can be picked apart by anyone with a little time on their hands. Humans did not evolve on a vegan diet -- we ate animals, and fish. In fact, cultures that still eat mostly fish as their primary protein source appear to have the healthiest, longest lives. Common sense has mysteriously eluded this guy.

http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?sho...408&hl=fish

Edited by AutonomousOne1980, 18 October 2009 - 04:19 PM.

[Packerfan785]

AutonomousOne, I tried to PM you this but your inbox is full:

I know you don't support taking fish oil anymore, but what about taking a primrose oil to get EFA's such as GLA?

I can get fish in my diet for the Omega 3's but is there anything easy to include to get the plant based EFA's?

Edited by Packerfan785, 07 November 2009 - 11:17 AM.

[hatedAcne]

i got confused read this thread
so what supplement i should take then ?
omega 3 / omega 6 / omega 9 ?

[raykingofchina]

Dan's Acne.org DID NOT WORK FOR ME.

Wow, this is what my site's all about. Cool that you guys are talkin' about it. Omega 3 6 9 or EFAs, will help you CURE YOUR ACNE. Believe it or not.

My name's Ray and I'm an ex-acne sufferer of almost 10 years. I am currently studying for my Masters Degree in Dietetics and Nutrition and previously I've tried everything from commercial acne products such as Proactiv Solutions & topical creams to the more extreme acne treatments, like ultraviolet electric laser therapy and steroidal injections. None of that stuff worked for me. NOT EVEN Acne.org.

Just click the link, I promise not to sell you anything or any ebooks. Just read a few articles and judge for yourself. I'm sure you'll know useful information when you see it.

Edited by willow569, 23 December 2009 - 11:30 PM.
link to website removed

[Brissyguy]

Woah 164 pages. I'm not going to be able to read everything.
[b]

EDIT

Edited by Brissyguy, 01 January 2010 - 09:03 PM.

[goodlife]

What an incredibly confusing topic.

[white tea]

Here is an attempt to paraphrase from the chunk of this thread that I've actually read:

An imbalance of Omega 3 and Omega 6 Fatty Acids is a pretty huge culprit for acne. The common person has a greatly off-balance ratio for the two. The ideal is 1:1, I think, while many people can be anywhere from 1:8 and so on.

Omega 6 is relatively easy to get, where Omega 3 is rather elusive. Because many Fish Oil pills come with (was it 300mg?) of Omega 3, Fish Oil is such a hot topic. Let's say your usual intake of Omega 6 is 1200mg. To balance it out with Fish Oil pills, you'd need to take 4 pills a day - 1200mg of Omega 3. This would give you a 1:1 ratio of Omega 3 to Omega 6.

Where the real work comes in is analyzing one's diet to see just how much O3 and O6 it contains, and making up for any lack by taking supplements. Again, the goal is a more balanced ratio. This can probably by done by sites like NutritionData.com and the like, but it takes quite a bit of work. However, Omega 3 and 6 in-take should also be in-check with levels of consumed Omega 9.

The length of this thread is probably in-part because a lot of the active participants were not only sharing their revelations but also scientific journalism to satisfy their claims. Which, I must add, is very impressive. In fact, in many places, this thread seems to tumble into scientific/biological explanation.

So, this thread takes a look at acne through the view of nutrition, supplements, etc.

Hope that paraphrase was not only accurate but helpful.

Edited by white tea, 03 January 2010 - 03:59 PM.

[Brissyguy]

I take fish oil capsules (omega 3 I'm pretty sure) and cod liver oil (which has added vitamins A and D) and I was told that taking Omega 3 is good but never to touch Omega 6 because it can aggravate the condition?

[SameSongAndDance]

Let's just get the facts straight here. Taking a fish oil supplement (1200mg) once a day or possibly twice a day (2.4 g's) is beneficial to not just your skin but your overall health. AutonomousOne, you were taking somewhere along the lines of 9 a day so you roughly had 10.8 grams of Omega 3 a day for two years? I mean, what did you expect? It's like the dude claiming 50,000 I.U of Vitamin A cleared up his acne but now he's turning orange. I don't mean to sound like a dick but if you don't take the recommended dosage of said supplement you definitely cannot attribute your complications to that supplement. Everyone, when you buy vitamins/supplements, read the directions and follow them. They are their for a reason.

Edited by SameSongAndDance, 03 January 2010 - 09:13 PM.

[AdamDolce10]

I take omega 3 fish oil capsules are these ok??

[Brissyguy]

Yup. EFA's are good for you, in so many ways! Not just for your skin!

I take cod liver fish oil capsules and fish capsules. It's Omega 3, I've been told to stay away from Omega 6+9 but I'm not sure if this is correct.

[AutonomousOne1980]

Let's just get the facts straight here. Taking a fish oil supplement (1200mg) once a day or possibly twice a day (2.4 g's) is beneficial to not just your skin but your overall health. AutonomousOne, you were taking somewhere along the lines of 9 a day so you roughly had 10.8 grams of Omega 3 a day for two years? I mean, what did you expect? It's like the dude claiming 50,000 I.U of Vitamin A cleared up his acne but now he's turning orange. I don't mean to sound like a dick but if you don't take the recommended dosage of said supplement you definitely cannot attribute your complications to that supplement. Everyone, when you buy vitamins/supplements, read the directions and follow them. They are their for a reason.

no i took around 8 grams or so for two or three months, then maybe 1 gram a day or every other day, not 17 grams for two years. We are supposed to eat foods that smell and taste good, there is nothing appealing about a pill with oil in it, i respect science, but i now respect nature much more to identify what is suitable for human consumption, your nose knows!! generally speaking of course.