50 replies to this topic

[curiousz]

Here's L. Cordain's hypothesis of acne and the western diet:

- A diet high in refined carbohydrates, thereby being a high glycemic load diet, results in an increase in IGF-1 levels.

- An increase in IGF-1 levels increases our demand for IGFBP-3, and a high glycemic load diet does not promote IGFBP-3, thus our body's IGF-1 / IGFBP-3 ratio increases, thus inhibiting the action of IGFBP-3.

- IGFBP-3 is related to retinoic acid, keratinion, and so forth. So, in theory, a lack of this will result in an increase of keratinization through increased proliferation of skin keratinocytes.


I don't have a problem with any of the above points, however this is what Cordain suggests as an acne remedy:

- Eat a 'paleolithic diet' that consists of fruits, veggies, lean meats, and 'healthy' fats. In fact, he suggests a high protein diet.

Here's a few PROBLEMS that I have with his suggestions:

Most people think that IGF-1 is, more or less, an issue with carbohydrates and sugar. However, if you look at the actual facts and studies it clearly shows that protein can increase IGF-1 even more than carbohydrates.

Here's the evidence:

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/12/2/84

Highlights:

The major sources of animal protein, including milk, fish, and poultry, but not red meat, as well as total vegetable protein, were associated with an increase in IGF-I levels. Energy intake was positively related to plasma IGF-I level but only in men with body mass index <25 kg/m2. The age-related decline in plasma IGF-I may be exacerbated by low intakes of protein and minerals. The potential role of these dietary factors on cancer risk through altering IGF-I levels requires study.

Adjusting for total energy, we found that total fat had a slight but not significant inverse trend with plasma IGF-I, whereas carbohydrates had a slight positive trend, especially with the IGF-I:IGFBP-3 ratio. Similar patterns were noted in an analysis in the Nurses’ Health Study (18) . These results suggest that among macronutrients, the role of proteins is more important that that of carbohydrates or fat in influencing IGF-I levels.



Clearly, based upon this study, we see that protein may cause more IGF-1 than even some carbohydrates.

Has anyone addressed this glaring flaw in what many people post here on this board?

[LuckyMan]

Its not L. Cordain's hypothesis but that's not important. your very right there is a huge gaping flaw in the low-carb for acne, i realised this too when it was brought to my attention that meats illicit the same/similar effects upon insulin as carbs. The even bigger flaw is the fact that all these 100% protein fadists often cite insulin from carbs as the cause of most degenerative diseases and advise people to eat high-protein diets. this seems to be quite contradictory.

The same flaw can be said of those who advocate atkins sytle diets for weight loss, reasoning that a lack of insulin forces people to lose weight? yet if protein is having similar or greater effect up insulin secretion, how can high-protein diets actually work? i mean i was quite sure they did, not that its the healthiest way to lose weight, but i thought i was quite clear that they work and why they work.

Again highlights the fact that the only way to "be healthy" is to exercise and eat healthy foods.

[Danny©]

Clearly, based upon this study, we see that protein may cause more IGF-1 than even some carbohydrates.

Has anyone addressed this glaring flaw in what many people post here on this board?

I have said before that beef raise insulin levels more than rice
As you clearly point out meat does greatly increase IGF-1 levels, this is well documented

That being said it all depends on finding a balance
For example an all grain diet would increase IGF-1 levels and a all meat diet would too (both all carbs or no carbs gurus have the bad habits of never using blood works to prove their theories right so they don't really know what the hell really happens to insulin and hormones when people follow what they suggest)

I think there could be a balance aproximated towards both standards (higher meat, higher plant)
A high-plant diet would need to contain more nuts and fatty fruits and less grains and tubers to not affect IGF-1 levels negatively. Cordain suggests a diet that is plant predominated by weight and almost half and half by calories. That's rougly 12 oz of meat/fish/eggs daily

Also, we know nothing about what paleolithic humans ate and we know very little about paleilithic; plant food don't leave rests so looking for food rests in the paleolithic sites is not a good method too
The only reliable method that all paleo-gurus use is indirect test with modern hunter-gatherer diets

Hunter-gatherer population vary a lot and while just 2% of them consume a diet very high in animal food the average is a plant-food dominated diet. For example the Kalahari tribes consume 80% plant food and they meet the criteria by which we judge an hunter-gatherer population extremely healthy
The populations that Cordain analyzed for his acne studies are ironically less animal food dominated than the average consuming a small amoung of meat daily

I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong or proving Cordain theories wrong, it's just a matter of finding the better balance that affect IGF-1 the least; it's not a black and white issue of "this food is health" and "this food is not" ... let's leave b&w thinking to diet mongers

[paba]

Its not L. Cordain's hypothesis but that's not important. your very right there is a huge gaping flaw in the low-carb for acne, i realised this too when it was brought to my attention that meats illicit the same/similar effects upon insulin as carbs. The even bigger flaw is the fact that all these 100% protein fadists often cite insulin from carbs as the cause of most degenerative diseases and advise people to eat high-protein diets. this seems to be quite contradictory.

The same flaw can be said of those who advocate atkins sytle diets for weight loss, reasoning that a lack of insulin forces people to lose weight? yet if protein is having similar or greater effect up insulin secretion, how can high-protein diets actually work? i mean i was quite sure they did, not that its the healthiest way to lose weight, but i thought i was quite clear that they work and why they work.

Again highlights the fact that the only way to "be healthy" is to exercise and eat healthy foods.

A low carb diet is not necessarily very high in protein. Practically all low carb authors recommend to substitute fat for carbs and NOT protein (Atkins, Eades, Lutz, Kwasniewski, Groves, Stefansson, Maackarness, Donaldson etc.). Most authors recommend to eat between 60-80% of calories from fat. On the Kwasniewki diet you eat not more than 50 grams of protein a day. That's only the half of what the average american eats every day!! Unfortunately, it's a widespread misbelief, that people on low carb diets eat huge amounts of protein.

[LuckyMan]

Ahh so they work through calorie restriction just like any other diet, ha figures.

EDIT: wow that was 1min after you posted. (yes i am easily amused)

[paba]

Ahh so they work through calorie restriction just like any other diet

Yes, but the difference of the low carb approach is, that do you don't have to force yourself to restrict calories, because you do it automatically. You don't have to suffer hunger for restricting calories. Proteins and fats are more satiating and they give you longer lasting energy.

I have said before that beef raise insulin levels more than rice

The insulin reaction itself is not a bad thing. There are studies done that show, that insulin injections don't cause acne. In fact, insulin injections have been used to treat acne, because it helps to overcome insulin resistence in the skin.

Our primary focus should be to overcome insulin resistance in the skin. While some amino acids cause insulin release just as carbs do, they have not the same detrimental effect on blood sugar control. A diet high in animal protein and fat helps to resolve insulin resistance, while a diet high in carbs does not! Insulin resistance is not primarily caused by repeated insulin peaks, but by systemic inflammation. You can improve blood sugar control by lowering systemic inflammaton.

[paba]

Here's a very interesting article, everyone should read:

Medical Hypotheses 14: 307-310, 1984

HIGH-CHROMIUM YEAST FOR ACNE?
Mark McCarty, Nutrition 21, 11095 Torreyana Road, Suite 105, San Diego, California 92121.

ABSTRACT
Many dermatologists have reported that insulin and tolbutamide are therapeutically effective in acne. This rationalizes a recent observation that high-chromium yeast appears to have value as an acne treatment.

INSULIN AND ACNE
Rubin (1) has recently reported rapid improvement of acne in a child treated with high-chromium yeast (Chromax, 100 ppm chromium). Comparable improvement was noted in 9 further patients treated with this regimen. Each patient received two teaspoons of yeast daily providing 400 mcg chromium.
Uncontrolled clinical observations in acne therapy are usually greeted
with justified scepticism. However, my subsequent review of the literature reveals that therapeutic response to chromium can in fact be predicted on the basis of past findings.
Recent studies indicate that high-chromium yeast as well as chromium salts act to improve glucose tolerance and enhance the insulin sensitivity of tissues (2-5). The exceptional value of high-chromium yeast in this regard has been attributed to its high content of "glucose tolerance factor" (GTF), an as yet poorly-characterized organic chromium complex postulated to mediate the actions of chromium in vivo (6). Chromium appears to play an essential physiological role in maintaining tissue sensitivity to insulin (7)
A number of publications dating back to the 1930s indicate that measures which enhance insulin activity have value in the treatment of acne. The first such observation was made by Wortis (8), who noted rapid improvement of acne in 6 non-diabetic psychotic patients subjected to continuing courses of insulin shock therapy. This finding subsequently was confirmed by other authors (9). Semon and Herrmann (10) went so far as to treat acne with insulin injections in non-diabetics. Courses providing 5 - 10 units per injection, 2 to 3 times weekly, were claimed to confer marked benefit in 13 treated patients. Intralesional insulin injections have also been noted to reduce the elevation and depth of acne lesions (9).
The introduction of tolbutamide as an anti-diabetic agent was followed by a number of reports claiming it to be effective in treating acne, in doses (.5 - 1 gram daily) which did not precipitate reactive hypoglycemia (11-13). In one of these studies (12), tolbutamide was proved superior
to placebo in a double-blind cross-over trial. A plant-derived "glucokinin" claimed to be effective in diabetes treatment, was also noted to have value in the therapy of acne (14).
Abdel Kader et al (15) administered glucose tolerance tests to 14 male acne patients and 15 normal controls. While systemic glucose tolerance did not differ in the acne patients as compared to controls, skin glucose tolerance (as assessed by repetitive punch biopsies) was found to be significantly impaired in the acne patients. This finding hearkens back to an earlier claim that acne patients have "skin diabetes" (11).

CONCLUSION
There is considerable evidence that pharmacological measures which enhance the action of insulin are of therapeutic value in acne. It can therefore be predicted that high-chromium yeast will have comparable value in this regard. Controlled trials should be initiated to verify this prediction, and to quantify the extent and duration of response.
The mechanism behind insulin's beneficial action in acne remains obscure, but a role in essential fatty acid metabolism can be postulated. Insulin induces the synthesis of delta-6-desaturase, the enzyme which is rate-limiting for the conversion of linoleic acid to more proximal prostaglandin precursors (16). High-dose zinc has demonstrated therapeutic efficacy in some but not all controlled trials in acne (17); Huang et al (18) have presented evidence that dermatological and various other effects of zinc deficiency in rats are mediated by an impairment in essential fatty acid metabolism and that zinc may be a cofactor for the delta-6-desaturase. Vitamin B6, which also plays a necessary but poorly-defined role in essential fatty acid metabolism (19), has been found to be effective in preventing premenstrual acne flare (20). Finally, Hubler observed that corn oil supplementation appeared to improve the clinical course in acne patients on low-fat diets (21). Taken as a group, these observations suggest that measures which aid the conversion of linoleic acid to more proximal prostaglandin precursors — probably including dietary chromium — may have therapeutic value in acne. If the postulated efficacy of chromium in acne is mediated by an effect on delta-6-desaturase, it can be predicted that gammalinolenic acid will have comparable therapeutic value in acne.
In passing, it is interesting to note the claim by Singh et al (13) that tolbutamide therapy was clinically beneficial in hyperhidrosis. Rapid remission of severe hyperhidrosis of many years duration has been reported in a subject receiving high-chromium yeast (22).

REFERENCES

1. Rubin D, personal communication.
2. Freiberg JM, Schneider JR, Streeten DHP, Schneider AJ, Effects of brewer's yeast on glucose toleranceDiabetes 24; 433, 1975.
3. Offenbacher EG, Pi-Sunyer FX. Improvement of glucose tolerance and blood lipids in elderly subjects given chromium-rich yeast. Am J Clin Nutr 33: 916, 1980.
4. Check WA. And if you add chromium, that's even better. J Am Med Assoc 247: 3046, 1982.
5. Elias AN, Grossman MK, Valenta Li. Use of the artificial beta cell (ABC) in the assessment of peripheral insulin sensitivity: effect of chromium supplementation in diabetes. Clin Res 28: 391A, 1980.
6. Mertz W. Effects and metabolism of glucose tolerance factor. Nutr Rev 33: 129, 1975.
7. Schwarz K, Mertz W. Chromium (III) and the glucose tolerance factor. Arch Biochem Biophys 85: 292, 1959.
8. Wortis J. Common acne and insulin hypoglycemia. J Am Med Assoc 108: 971, 1937.
9. Grover RW, Arikian N. The effect of intralesional insulin and glucagon in acne vulgaris. J Invest Derm 40: 259, 1963.
10. Semon HC, Herrmann F. Some observations on the sugar metabolism in acne vulgaris, and its treatment by insulin. Brit J Derm 52: 123, 1940.
11. Cohen JL, Cohen AD. Pustular acne, staphyloderma and its treatment with tolbutamide. Can Med Assoc J 80: 629, 1959.
12. Bettley FR. The treatment of acne vulgaris with tolbutamide. Brit J Derm 73: 149, 1961.
13. Singh I, Gaind ML, Jayram D. Tolbutamide in the treatment of skin diseases. Brit J Derm 73: 362, 1961.
14. Aichinger F. Beeinflussung des Kohlenhydratstoffwechsels durch Glukokinine, dargestellt an der Akne-Therapie. Landartzt 43: 928, 1967.
15. Abdel Kader MM, El-Mofty AM, Ismail AA, Bassili F. Glucose tolerance in blood and skin of patients with acne vulgaris. Indian J Derm 22: 139, 1977
16. Brenner RR. The oxidative desaturation of unsaturated fatty acids in animals. Molec Cell Biochem 3: 41, 1974.
17. Michaelsson G. Oral zinc in acne. Acta Dermatovener Suppl 89: 87, 1980.
18. Huang YS, Cunnane SC, Horrobin DF, Davignon J. Most biological effects of zinc deficiency corrected by alpha-linolenic acid (18:3w6) but not by linoleic acid (18:2w6). Athrosclerosis 41: 193, 1982.
19. Witten PW, Holman RT. Polyethenoid fatty acid metabolism. VI. Effect of pyridoxine on essential fatty acid conversions. Arch Biochem Biophys 41: 266, 1952.

[curiousz]

So what is causing the systemic inflammation, if not repeated insulin peaks?

Why would a low-carb diet lower systemic inflammation?

Also, why do some people who consume whey protein notice acne?

While systemic glucose tolerance did not differ in the acne patients as compared to controls, skin glucose tolerance (as assessed by repetitive punch biopsies) was found to be significantly impaired in the acne patients. This finding hearkens back to an earlier claim that acne patients have "skin diabetes" (11).

That's interesting. So the person doesn't have insulin resistance, per se, just insulin resistance within the skin itself...

Now why would a western diet lead to insulin resistance simply in the skin? What triggers this?



Also, by what measure does SKIN INSULIN RESISTANCE have on acne? Does it affect keratinocyte proliferation? increased sebum? what exactly?

Where can I get HIGH CHROMIUM YEAST supplements? Would ALA (alpha lipoic acid) work as well, because I hear that improves glucose tolerance.

Also, if you combine all the above advice with a low-carb diet, so you don't have GLUCOSE swings to begin with, would that help?

However, we can't really change glucose too much. We can stabilize it with a high fat/moderate protein diet that is low in carbs, this will keep glucose levels relatively stagnant rather than fluctuating swings, it still is very necessary for many organs to function on. So we can't really limit glucose.

[paba]

So what is causing the systemic inflammation, if not repeated insulin peaks?

I don't know. Maybe leaky gut, dysbiosis, food allergies and intolerances, overburdened liver, nutrient deficiencies etc. I guess it's a combination of various factors.

Why would a low-carb diet lower systemic inflammation?

I don't know the exact mechanism. Various mechanisms are possible.

1. Because a lot of allergenic foods are excluded.
2. Because a lot of antinutrients and plant toxins are excluded (salicylates, oxalates, lectins etc.), which cause food intolerances and can overburden liver detox pathways. A lot of plant toxins interfere with nutrient absorption and with detoxification. Salicylates an oxalates for instance worsen blood sugar control and can cause inflammation.
3. Because it improves blood sugar control and lowers insulin resistance.
4. Because its a very nutrient dense diet (VERY high in b-vitamins, long chain essential fatty acids, fat soluble vitamins, high quality proteins, which are important for digestive health and detoxification).
5. Because it fights pathogens in the gut. Pathogens, which primarily live from carbs (such as candida) are starved.

Also, why do some people who consume whey protein notice acne?

Maybe, because whey protein is often highly denatured and allergenic.

[Supertouch]

10 bucks says the OP doesn't understand anything from that article.

[curiousz]

10 bucks says I do. Thanks for trying to insult me though, anyways.

I'm just trying to get answers.

[Supertouch]

someone who understands that article doesn't go on to equate a low-carb diet with extremely high protein intake.

[curiousz]

Supertouch - My criticism was with Cordain himself, who suggests a high-protein diet (listen to the radio interview, he clearly says to follow a high protein diet). I also believe his hypothesis is wrong or misinterpreted, because there are protein foods that illicit a much greater insulin response than carbs. So again, insulin and IGF-1 may not be the problem.

Personally, I follow a high-fat diet, combined with moderate intake of protein (~160 grams/ day). This is still relatively high, with regards to protein, but I do it for workout purposes.

I also disagree with Cordain on MANY things, including his stance on saturated fats and what he considers to be a 'paleolithic diet'.

[Supertouch]

paba, define "low-carb diet."

[curiousz]

A low carb diet should, by nature, be a high fat diet. High protein diets, without the fat, are harmful.

[Supertouch]

A low carb diet should, by nature, be a high fat diet. High protein diets, without the fat, are harmful.

well, it seems that paba suggests one cut out all plant products. i've seen "low-carb diet" defined as a diet simply devoid of starchy foods, and i've also seen it defined as a diet consisting of high animal protein consumption and not much else.

[paba]

paba, define "low-carb diet."

Well, carbohydrate intake should be low enough to have a measurable effect on blood sugar control. Wolfgang Lutz, a austrian doctor who has applied the low carb diet to 10'000 of his patients over more than 40 years found through trial and error, that it's best to keep carb intake below 70 grams of carbs a day. He treated overweight insulin resistant kids with his diet and he found, that 70 grams of carbs was about the upper limit these overweight kids could tolerate without worsen blood sugar control. Personally, I aim at a even lower level. I keep my carb intake below 50 grams a day, which is termed in scientific papers as "very low carb diets".

well, it seems that paba suggests one cut out all plant products. i've seen "low-carb diet" defined as a diet simply devoid of starchy foods, and i've also seen it defined as a diet consisting of high animal protein consumption and not much else.

No, I don't cut all plant foods. I eat some carbs in order to avoid deep ketosis. But I take care, that the plant foods I eat, are easy digestible, low in plant toxins and antinutrients. I get my carbs basically from a little bit of cooked vegetables, a little bit of potatoe or easy digestible fruits such as bananas or pears.

A low carb diet should, by nature, be a high fat diet. High protein diets, without the fat, are harmful.

Exactly. I eat not more than 100-120 grams of protein a day. Most of my calories (up to 70%) come from high quality animal fats.

[paba]

Where can I get HIGH CHROMIUM YEAST supplements? Would ALA (alpha lipoic acid) work as well, because I hear that improves glucose tolerance.

I don't think that ALA is a good idea. Various people on the the imminst.org forums had break outs from ala-supplements, even though they used the highest quality stuff available (stabilized r-ala from geronova).

You don't need chromium supplements. Eggs yolks are one of the richest sources of chromium. 100 grams of egg yolks have 183mcg of chromium.
http://www.healthyeatingclub.com/info/book...ata/data5m.html

I eat 3 eggs every day!

Beef is also a very good source, btw.

[Case N]

Where can I get HIGH CHROMIUM YEAST supplements? Would ALA (alpha lipoic acid) work as well, because I hear that improves glucose tolerance.

I don't think that ALA is a good idea. Various people on the the imminst.org forums had break outs from ala-supplements, even though they used the highest quality stuff available (stabilized r-ala from geronova).

You don't need chromium supplements. Eggs yolks are one of the richest sources of chromium. 100 grams of egg yolks have 183mcg of chromium.
http://www.healthyeatingclub.com/info/book...ata/data5m.html

I eat 3 eggs every day!

Beef is also a very good source, btw.

100 Grams huh? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Supertouch]

Where can I get HIGH CHROMIUM YEAST supplements? Would ALA (alpha lipoic acid) work as well, because I hear that improves glucose tolerance.

I don't think that ALA is a good idea. Various people on the the imminst.org forums had break outs from ala-supplements, even though they used the highest quality stuff available (stabilized r-ala from geronova).

You don't need chromium supplements. Eggs yolks are one of the richest sources of chromium. 100 grams of egg yolks have 183mcg of chromium.
http://www.healthyeatingclub.com/info/book...ata/data5m.html

I eat 3 eggs every day!

Beef is also a very good source, btw.

100 Grams huh? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

what's so funny?