929 replies to this topic

[Smokeyjay]

Sorry I didn't read all the posts.

But whats wrong with citric acid? In the red mark forum, lemon juice is hailed there. With egg white.

And Im using baking soda as an exfoliant. It feels like sandpaper against my skin. Is that too harsh?

[The_Snow_Queen]

I trust the Paula's Choice website because Paula Begoun frequently lists her sources (far more so than www.zerozits.com). You make no mention of any inquiry on your part of zerozits.com's sources. If indeed you have not, I find it hypocritical that you seem to accept their information over mine when I have provided sources.

The reason I like the zerozits.com article is because it is the most comprehensive rating of the comedogenicity (sp?) / irritability of various cosmetic ingredients that I have seen and it is organised in an easy to read and understandable way. You are right to say that I have not carried out any independent investigation as to the assertions made in that site (I have often said in other posts where I mention it that I have no way of verifing whether the information in it is true). However, the difference between you and me is that I am not telling other acne sufferers what they should or should not do as a given set 'dos' and 'donts'. I am not saying it is a bad thing to do - I actually think it is commendable. But, if you are going to hold yourself out there as an authority on this subject it is reasonable for people to question you as to why you have reached the conclusions you have, especially when there is so much misinformation floating around on the net.

This is why I raised the question on the titanium dioxide. The report you cited on this provides, at best, limited support for the conclusion you reached which is why I said that I had no reason to believe that zerozits.com was wrong in that respect. The second source of information you provided was the Paula's choice website in respect of which I expressed no view and which, from recollection, did not provide any references for the assertions made.

I do not think it is bold to alert acne sufferers that titanium dioxide and zinc oxide can clog pores (just like it is not bold to alert benzoyl peroxide users that a small percentage of people are allergic to that ingredient). Obviously the site I referred you to thought it was important enough to alert sunscreen users of this as well.

Sure, but I think there is a difference between saying that it can clog pores and saying that it has been reported as clogging pores in a very small percentage of people and even then it is not entirely clear whether the issue is with the titanium dioxide or with other ingredients found with it. Yes the article thought it important enough to mention the link, but it also thought it important enough to say that the incidence of reported problems was very low. From recollection, I believe the article notes that the issue may arise with all physical sunscreens and not just titanium dioxide.

Although you are correct that Paula Begoun does not list any specific references specifically relating to our titanium dioxide controversy, she does frequently site her work, far more so than www.zerozits.com or most other skin care sites. That and the fact that I have never found any of her statements to be outwright wrong when compared with various unbiased sources has earned her my trust.

Another point- I never tell anyone that an ingredient indefinately will clog pores, I just alert readers that an ingredient can clog pores.

Titanium dioxide can clog pores based on the information I have read (and all physical sunscreens, which by the way, I did and do acknowledge), and I am not going to change my statements. Also, the resource says that a small percentage of people reported problems from using physical sunscreens, but the resource does not directly say who those using the various sunscreens were (both those that reported problems and those that did not), or if those people were acne sufferers and/or prone to clogged pores, or how long the sunscreen testers tested the sunscreens four (clogged pores can take two weeks to form); therefore, I don't think saying that only a small percentage of people experience breakouts from physical sunscreens is entirely accurate without more information.

Obviously we are going to disagree on this subject. Thus far, I have not read anything to convince me that physical sunscreens should be recommended to acne sufferers over synthetic sunscreens (unless, of course, one is sensitive to a synthetic sunscreen, in which case he or she should use a physical sunscreen).

[The_Snow_Queen]

Sorry I didn't read all the posts.

But whats wrong with citric acid? In the red mark forum, lemon juice is hailed there. With egg white.

And Im using baking soda as an exfoliant. It feels like sandpaper against my skin. Is that too harsh?

According to wikipedia.org, citric acid is "a weak organic acid found in citrus fruits" like lemons. In small amounts citric acid is OK and is used to balance a product's pH and as a preservative.

Pure lemon juice on the otherhand is a skin irritant (think of what happens when lemon juice is poured onto an open cut). According to www.cosmeticscop.com, it does have antibacterial properties, but at the same time the irritation it causes can damge the skin's immune response.

I'm guessing that the lemon juice is used as an exfoliant, but really, it would be both beneficial and much less damaging to use a good alpha hydroxy acid or beta hydroxy acid product.

I'm not quite sure how egg whites could benefit red marks, but I would be concerned about putting egg whites on my skin for fear of encouraging bacterial growth.

In my experience, the best way to treat red marks is to be patient, stay out of the sun (and wear a broad-spectrum sunscreen), and use gentle skin care products. Prescription retinoids and chemical exfoliants like those mentioned above may also help speed their dissapearance, but they don't work miracles.

What has worked miracles for me is V-Beam, but it's expensive and requires multiple visits. I wouldn't have undergone it otherwise, but I have many surfaced/broken capillaries (some of them leftover from years-old nodules) that weren't going away anytime soon.

Really, I think most of the products raved over in the Red Marks Forum are a result of wishful thinking. People attribute various remedies with the removal of these red marks when really it's the skin doing most of the work. The difference between V-Beam and the remedies mentioned in the Red Marks Forum is that there's real scientific support backing V-Beam's claims.

[The_Snow_Queen]

don't know if this has been mentioned yet but

11. Don't steam the skin or rinse with hot water as this can cause capillaries to surface and irritation. It is best to wash with luke-warm water.

Hasn't steam been suggested here and in other areas as a good idea for acne?

Most dermatologists will tell you that heat and steam are bad for the skin, as is also mentioned in Cutis and Dermatological Therapy.

[Smokeyjay]

Interesting Snow Queen. You sound very knowledgable regarding acne treatment.

I'm using egg white with drops of lemon as a face mask. I leave it on for 15-20 mins and then wash it off. The lemon drops I feel are too minimal to cause irritation.

I'm nearing 21, and some of my red marks are quite old. I looked into V-beam and I'm quite interesting in doing it, but since I just came off Accutane about 3 months ago, I'm planning to wait some more months before going ahead with it.

\
Apple cidar vinegar is also getting pretty popular in the red mark forum.

[The_Snow_Queen]

Hey guys, would you recommend using either of these two aveeno moisturizers?

ULTRA-CALMING DAILY MOISTURIZER WITH SPF 15
http://www.aveeno.com/detailAction.do?id=1423

POSITIVELY RADIANT® DAILY MOISTURIZER WITH SPF 15
http://www.aveeno.com/detailAction.do?id=3695

For the Ultra Calming one, I looked up feverfew in the ingredient dictionary, and there it says it actually causes irritation.

The Aveeno Ultra-Calming Moisturizer with SPF 15, based on feverfew's ability to cause irritation, should not be used. In addition, the product lists benzyl alcohol, a drying type of alcohol, as the fourth ingredient.

The Aveeno Positively Radiant Daily Moisturizer with SPF 15 is just so-so. It, too, lists benzyl alcohol fairly high up on the ingredient list (the fifth ingredient), and the product contains more fragrance than soybean seed extract. Also, the product contains mica (which is commonly used to give makeup products a shiny look), so if you have oily skin you might not like this.

A concern I have with all the Aveeno moisturizers is the waxy thickeners they use (like arachidyl alcohol, their first ingredient in both moisturizers listed above), which can potentially clog pores. Even if you don't experience any increases in breakouts, the Aveeno moisturizers "balled up" on me, resembling flaky skin that didn't look good, especially under makeup.

If you're looking for a good moisturizer with SPF 15, try one from Dove.

[The_Snow_Queen]

Interesting Snow Queen. You sound very knowledgable regarding acne treatment.

I'm using egg white with drops of lemon as a face mask. I leave it on for 15-20 mins and then wash it off. The lemon drops I feel are too minimal to cause irritation.

I'm nearing 21, and some of my red marks are quite old. I looked into V-beam and I'm quite interesting in doing it, but since I just came off Accutane about 3 months ago, I'm planning to wait some more months before going ahead with it.

\
Apple cidar vinegar is also getting pretty popular in the red mark forum.

Small amounts of skin irritants can be tolerated in a formulation, but they're best avoided when possible. I'm glad you're not soaking your face in the lemon juice, which is what I first thought !

Why not try a weekly inexpensive clay mask such as Queen Helene's Mud Pack Masque, which will absorb excess oil and remove surface dead skin cells, to help freshen your complexion?

In my opinion V-Beam is well worth the cost (you can probably get it for between $150 and $300 per treatment), but I know not everyone gets satisfactory results from it. I've had two treatments so far and my skin hasn't looked this good in years! I actually felt comfortable going outside without makeup, something I've been afraid to do since I was twelve.

By the way, I think it's smart to wait at least six months after Accutane before undergoing V-Beam to be sure your acne doesn't come back. You may even want to wait longer, just to be safe.

Vinegar is mildly antibacterial and antifungal, but it too can cause irritation. However, as far as I know lemons are much more irritating to the skin. Just the same, I still say it's better to use a well-formulated AHA or BHA product (I'm guessing vinegar, like lemons, is also used as an exfoliant).

[JBHK]

Thus far, I have not read anything to convince me that physical sunscreens should be recommended to acne sufferers over synthetic sunscreens (unless, of course, one is sensitive to a synthetic sunscreen, in which case he or she should use a physical sunscreen).

That's ok. Wasn't trying to convince you. Grilling over Thanks for the post anyway. It was an interesting read even though I didn't agree with everything!

[daria]

this make-up is supposed to be amazing and it says it's ok for acne but just to be sure are these ingredients ok?
http://www.sheercover.com/ingredients.html

[JBHK]

this make-up is supposed to be amazing and it says it's ok for acne but just to be sure are these ingredients ok?
http://www.sheercover.com/ingredients.html

This is one of the makeups that contain titanium dioxide. Snow Queen and I have a discussion about this in the last couple of pages of this thread.

[The_Snow_Queen]

this make-up is supposed to be amazing and it says it's ok for acne but just to be sure are these ingredients ok?
http://www.sheercover.com/ingredients.html

This is one of the makeups that contain titanium dioxide. Snow Queen and I have a discussion about this in the last couple of pages of this thread.

The titanium dioxide in the foundation may be something to be concerned about; however, if you have used titanium dioxide- based sunscreens before with no problems you're probably OK.

The concealer doesn't seem to contain any ingredients that are likely to cause irritation. The only thing I'm concerned about with this concealer (and all cream/cream-powder/stick concealers) is the waxy thickeners used to give the product its consistancy, which can also clog pores.

I don't recommend the finishing powder because it uses cornstarch and rice starch, which are food for bacteria when wet, so if you're prone to inflammatory acne, this can make it worse. Also, some people have reported irritation from cornstarch. In addition, the powder contains some irritating plant extracts, though since the product is in powder form they're probably in minute amounts, posing a minimal risk of irritation. And lastly, the powder contains mica, an ingredient used to give makeup a shimmer, so if you have oily or combination skin, you might not like the added shine.

The cleanser looks OK. My only concern is the witch hazel water that it contains, but since it is listed in the middle, the ethanol content of the witch hazel water is minimal as well as the amount of tannin (a component of many plants, including witch hazel, that although is an antioxidant, also constricts the skin, causing irritation).

The SPF 15 moisturizer does not provide adequate UVA protection. Also, it contains waxy thickeners that could potentially clog pores.


Based on the product formulations, I'd say that Sheer Cover (although it claims otherwise) was designed for women not prone to breakouts over the age of thirty. That doesn't mean that you can't use the products; just that you should monitor any increases in breakouts two weeks after starting the use of this product (acne lesions can take two weeks to form). If you suffer from inflammatory acne, I wouldn't use the finishing powder at all, especially if you live somewhere humid and/or have an active lifestyle. Most drugstore talc-based powders will do fine as an alternative (talc is not bad for the skin; in fact, it is a mineral derivative as opposed to cornstarch or rice starch, which is why I find it odd that mineral makeup comanies exclude it from their formulations). The cleanser is probably OK to use, but I wouldn't rely on the moisturizer as a source of sun protection.

[Ihsahn]

I'm using the obagi foaming gel which has sodium laureth sulfate,is that the same thing as sodium laurel sulfate? i have been using it for the past 6 months and really like it do you still advice me to stop it ?.Im using a cream moisturizer for a while and really like it I apply it to my whole face,I know for normal/ to oily skin they recommend lotion but i didnt get any the company i needed (kinerase) is it ok to continue if you feel its not doing any harm? i mean do many people break out due to using cream moisturizers ?

[the_se7en]

What's wrong with Witch hazel ? I use a toner with Witch hazel, which I think helps my skin not irritate it.

[The_Snow_Queen]

I'm using the obagi foaming gel which has sodium laureth sulfate,is that the same thing as sodium laurel sulfate? i have been using it for the past 6 months and really like it do you still advice me to stop it ?.Im using a cream moisturizer for a while and really like it I apply it to my whole face,I know for normal/ to oily skin they recommend lotion but i didnt get any the company i needed (kinerase) is it ok to continue if you feel its not doing any harm? i mean do many people break out due to using cream moisturizers ?

Sodium laureth sulfate is not the same thing as sodium lauryl suflate, a harsh surfectant that is drying to the skin, and is perfectly fine to use. I can't recommend the cleanser you're using without seeing an ingredients list, but it's description indicates to me that it is probably OK.

Here's an article that discusses sodium laureth sulfate and sodium lauryl sulfate in more detail:

http://www.cosmeticscop.com/learn/art.asp?ID=181


If you've been using a cream moisturizer for some time and haven't experienced any increases in breakouts with that product, you're probably OK. However, I don't recommend moisturizing the entire face if your skin is not dry all over because not only can unnecessarily moisturizing increase the potential for clogged pores by mixing with the skin's excess sebum and holding dead skin cells to the skin's surface, but it can also interfere with the skin's healing process. You may find this article interesting:

http://www.cosmeticscop.com/learn/art.asp?ID=379

Even if you don't take the information provided in the article to heart, keep in mind that you'll save product and money by spot-moisturizing dry skin only.

What's wrong with Witch hazel ? I use a toner with Witch hazel, which I think helps my skin not irritate it.

hOneyy asked a similar question:

whats wrong with witch hazel? =O

Here's a quote from the Consumer's Dictionary of Cosmetic Ingredients, Fifth Edition:

"Witch hazel can have an ethanol [alcohol] content of 70 to 80 percent. Witch hazel water... contains 15% ethanol."

In addition, witch hazel contains a high level of tannin, an antioxidant which in that amount can be irritating when used repeatedly over a period of time.

Also, I'd like to point out that one doesn't always immediately notice visible skin damage from skin irritants, just like one doesn't always immedieately notice visible skin damage from UVA rays.

[jonny_boy]

oook, so I guess that list of what "not to do" just leaves me with *dust* looks like i'll be using dust to clean my face.

[Verve89]

Hey snow queen, can you recommend me some make up? I already followed your advice on acne products, but I can't seem to find a foundation/concealer that abide these guidelines.

thanks

[Rache]

Hey Snow Queen, I have another question I would like to ask you. I love and apperciate your advice. I have this tube from Avon. The product is called "ANEW Clinical Micro- exfoliant".And have read massive, massive great reviews on it. Apparently the BEST exfoliant. (Micro-Dermabrasion), and its milder, less-abrassive then regular micro dermabrassions out there. And I was wondering...would this benefit my skin?(red marks, rough texture, enlarged pores here and there). I can't find the ingredients anywhere! So..I don't know what to do. I know though, that one of its main purposes is for acne, acne scars, rough, dry flakey skin, evening out skin tone, texture as well as helps with clogged pores, sun damage. Sounds good to me. And from reviewers, and coloums I read..it does what it promises. Do you think I should use it?..I am scared, dunno if I should..But I DO need to exfoliate, as my skin is flaking some wat, and I want it to feel smooth.

Thanks.

[The_Snow_Queen]

oook, so I guess that list of what "not to do" just leaves me with *dust* looks like i'll be using dust to clean my face.

If you scroll down through the replies on the first page, you'll find some products I recommend. By the way, the products I do recommend are by no means the only good ones available (with the exception of the salicylic acid products, since most of those I don't mention are poorly formulated), they're just the products that I first thought of as being both reasonably priced and effective.

[The_Snow_Queen]

Hey snow queen, can you recommend me some make up? I already followed your advice on acne products, but I can't seem to find a foundation/concealer that abide these guidelines.

thanks

Luckily there are lots of inexpensive makeup products that can work for acne-prone skin I'll list some of the ones I've heard good things about.


Concealers:

Loreal AirWear Long-Wearing Concealer (couldn't find the ingredients list but it was recommended on www.cosmeticscop.com)

Loreal True Match Concealer (again, couldn't find the ingredients list but I'm pretty sure it doesn't contain any irritants or ingredients that are problematic for breakout-prone skin)

Maybelline Everfresh Concealer

Neutrogena Skin-Clearing Oil-Free Concealer (won't clear skin but apparantly is a decent concealer; this does contain a synthetic wax but doesn't seem to break out most people)

Mary Kay MK Signature Concealer(again, couldn't find the ingredients list but it was recommended on www.cosmeticscop.com and has good reviews on at www.makeupalley.com)


Foundations:

Almay Clear Complexion Liquid Makeup (again, won't clear your complexion but is apparently a good product)

Loreal True Match Super-Blendable Makeup

Revlon Colorstay Stay Natural Makeup SPF 15


Powders:

Cover Girl TruBlend Pressed Powder (this does contain mica, but most people don't complain about it being too shiny)

Jane Translucent Loose Staying Powder (make sure you're getting the translucent/colorless one)

Rimmel Lasting Finish Pressed Powder

Sonia Kashuk Dual Coverage Powder Foundation (a sheer, powder foundation)


Blushes:

Jane Blushes (couldn't find ingredients list but www.makeupalley.com gives them good reviews)

Loreal True Match Super-Blendable Blush

[The_Snow_Queen]

Hey Snow Queen, I have another question I would like to ask you. I love and apperciate your advice. I have this tube from Avon. The product is called "ANEW Clinical Micro- exfoliant".And have read massive, massive great reviews on it. Apparently the BEST exfoliant. (Micro-Dermabrasion), and its milder, less-abrassive then regular micro dermabrassions out there. And I was wondering...would this benefit my skin?(red marks, rough texture, enlarged pores here and there). I can't find the ingredients anywhere! So..I don't know what to do. I know though, that one of its main purposes is for acne, acne scars, rough, dry flakey skin, evening out skin tone, texture as well as helps with clogged pores, sun damage. Sounds good to me. And from reviewers, and coloums I read..it does what it promises. Do you think I should use it?..I am scared, dunno if I should..But I DO need to exfoliate, as my skin is flaking some wat, and I want it to feel smooth.

Thanks.

I think that everyone who can exfoliate should to promote the appearance of healthy skin, and although I prefer chemical exfoliants, especially salicylic acid, manual exfoliants like microdermabrasion products are options too.

Microdermabrasion can help improve red marks, rough skin texture, and the appearance of large pores. From what I've read it can also help with acne scarring (which isn't the same thing as a red mark; if you have real acne scarring, which often looks like strange indentations in the skin, check out the acne scar forum for more info on treatment options). However, you shouldn't expect the same results obtained from dermatologist-performed microdermabrasion treatments when using over-the-counter microdermabrasion products, though store kits can make a noticeable improvement.

I went to the Avon website concerning the product you mentioned, but it wouldn't let me read the ingredients. My advise to you is to e-mail Avon asking for an ingredients list. Although a little more expensive (go to Wal Mart), I personally recommend the Neutrogena Advanced Solutions At-Home Microdermabrasion Kit, which is in my opinion the best at-home microdermabrasion system I've seen (keep in mind I haven't read up on the Avon version).

EDIT: I forgot to mention that microdermabrasion shouldn't be used over inflammatory acne. Otherwise, you risk damaging the skin surrounding the clog and making the problem worse. You can, however, use it over non-inflammatory acne, including blackheads. In fact, microdermabrasion can be very helpful for getting rid of blackheads that can't be gotten rid of with other treatments.