OK, for those of you that ask about the diet acne link, here's some studies/abstracts for you to look over. These are predominately about Dr. Mann's study, and I'll post additional updates as they are released. Of course if anyone finds a more recent update regarding Dr. Mann's study or other diet-acne studies, feel free to post them as well.



PMID: 15294556 [PubMed - in process]








Here's an update that was provided in March 2005 by a former mother member of ours (I so miss her):







Apologies for the length, but for some reason I can't get these as individual posts!



PMID: 16326495 [PubMed - in process]

(yet another study linking dietary changes to affecting, thus altering our bodies hormonal production)









PMID: 16326597 [PubMed - in process]

the flaws in the study:
- the study does not distinguish between good carbs (natural carbs) and bad carbs (processed carbs)
- number of subjects (patients) in the group is too small - (already pointed out)
- its too difficult to control and monitor the subjects eating habits day in and day out

they should just fly a group of people with severe cystic acne from the west over to the Kitavan Island for like 30 days. That way you bring the people to the environment and not the other way round. That ought to settle the debate between the diet Vs acne link once and for all.

hmm low glycemic and high protein, any diet examples?

does this mean i shud stop eating handsfull of raisins? I dont think its giving me any cysts...

BTW arent their "tricks" to lower the conversion into glucose? like eating high GI foods with nuts or fibers or something?

Cubsfan,
Those are actually mentioned in the study or rather the emails to Minnymouse. You can't watch someone 24/7 on these diets and Dr. Mann acknowledged this and despite that they still saw a difference and that's what should matter. Especially around here where people complain that diet has no effect on our skin, let alone our hormones and here is one direct study, vs. the "connect the dot" ones (who wants to think, uh?) that is showing as such.

Of course, I agree with you that this study isn't perfect, doesn't cover the insulin index aspect of foods, and by far it would not get me 100% clear, but he does also mention that some people have food intolerances (and others food hypersensitivities) which means that they must find their own individual food culprits (that's the hard part for some).

So my guess is that based on their final results he or some other group of scientists will delve further and look into the good vs bad starch, carbohydrates etc, even though I know and others know, and I believe you know too, that there are also individual foods that play a role for some of us as well.

All the best!

P.S. I agree about settling the acne debate once and for all. The only way to do this is to study people overnight for several weeks, at least one month. That way they can control all that is eaten. Least that way, we know what they weren't getting their hands on and well...individual sensitivities will still have to be discovered.

Veen,
As I mentioned to Cubsfan, some people have individual food hypersensitivities in which case, almost any food, no matter how healthy & nutrient fillled it may be, can be a culprit for someone. Yet, if raisens don't seem to be giving you problems, don't worry about it. I am Insulin Resistant and I can eat most fruits and definately raisens on a daily basis with no problems.

On the other hand, I do have problems with nuts, and as such, certain fruits related to almonds (a fruit) do cause me problems, as well as bananas. That has to do with my own past experiences, environment etc, but it's an example as to how something healthy and full of good fats can be a problem for someone. So if you notice that increasing your nut intake causes you problems...keep in mind that certain nuts or all nuts can be a problem for some acne sufferers.

Also, please keep in mind that the glycemic index is only one portion of the acne problem. Fructose has no bearing on spiking our insulin levels and yet if you ask anyone on this board that has found sugar to be a problem, I'm fairly certain they will tell you that pure fructose, corn syrup, or high fructose corn syrup definately gives them acne and cystic/nodular acne at that! This is possibly because fructose raises our cholesterol levels and thus our ability to produce steriod hormones and inflammatory products (this is important for acne). Yet for most of us, fruit doesn't do this and that may have to do with the fiber, enzymes, and nutrients found in fruit vs. pure fructose sugar.

As for specific diet examples, even that is a bit tough to do. I would say you should follow one diet that has given results to others and then based on your results add in or take out other foods that appear to be causing your problems (retest by adding that food back in). If you find that there are simply too many foods, in your opinion, that you must avoid, then you will probably want to look into doing the anti-fungal/anti-candida, detoxification, and liver cleansing regimens as these combined are thought to be the ultimate method for treating food hypersentivities and certain autoimmune & metabolic disorders and has yielded amazing results for some members.

Of course if you want book suggestions, you can start with one of these:

Any book from http://www.KnowtheCause.com

The Acne Prescription http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BPG22...glance&n=283155

The Natural Diet Solution for PCOS and Infertility
http://www.ovarian-cysts-pcos.com/pcos-book-res.html - culmination of various theories and is very similar to what some males and females around here, including myself, follow.

The Paleo Diet For Atheletes http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159486089...=books&v=glance

The Gluten Free Diet (any book or website out there) - avoids Wheat, Barley and Rye

The Specific Carboyhydrate Diet (SCD) - avoids grains, "starches", dairy, and processed foods http://www.scdiet.org


There are a few more, but all of the above will put you in the Low - Moderate Carbohydrate diet range. Although it would be easier to pick a diet if you knew your personal & family history regarding hormonal and metabolic disorders, do you?

Sweetjade, is the ebook worth buying?

I have a serious quesiton that I've always wondered about in terms of the whole diet/acne thing.

If diet is a primary cause of acne why is it so rare in pre-pubscent children, even with horriable diets?

Nope, no hormonal or metabolic disorders in my family history...

And yeah Ive heard about the book The Paleo Diet For Atheletes, I find it very interesting and will probably buy it





thats a very good question... I think its hormones related, your body goes through a lot of changes in puberty... but SweetJade will be able to answer that question much better

Snowy,
Well it's one of the cheapest e-books out their next to Snipes I believe. It has over 400 some pages. Gives recipes, a 30-Day meal plan, etc., so I think it is. Although I can tell you what it says to avoid.....Gluten Grains, unless sprouted and even then it may be too much. Dairy, Sugar, Artificial Sweetners, Processed foods (cuz it has most of the stuff you're avoiding), and it's actually considered a Moderate Carbohydrate diet. It takes into consideration the Exercise, Acid/Alkaline Balance, Blood Type, and it's High Fiber, High Fruits & Vegetables, and Moderate in Nuts & Seeds, and Fats.


*****************************************************************************************


Robdude,
Veen pretty much answered your question. Puberty is a "temporary state of insulin resistance", although babies that are born premature, or from parents that smoke (while mom was pregnant) are already insulin resistant. Since I was born premature, and also had type II diabetes running on my father's side of the family I actually entered into a state of Precocious Puberty (puberty by age 8 or younger) which definately means you are in for quite a few hormonal/metabolic problems in your future. I was so lucky!

Anyway, in order for one to go through puberty they have to be insulin resistant because this is what makes our steriod hormones go crazy so we can start producing excess androgens, estrogens etc to help us grow, build muscle and give us those secondary sex characteristics. Interestingly enough you may end up being overweight during this time or underweight depending on how insulin resistance affects you (it can inhibit muscle growth). It's considered temporary because you are supposed to grow out of it, once puberty ends, but an increasing number of people are not, hence those that are walking around obese, that are type II diabetics, have cholesterol problems, and unfortunately certain cancers.

Furthermore, Insulin Resistance is now more recently considered yet another Silent (no symptoms & no pain) Chronic (long term) Inflammatory Disease. So after enough years of inflammation damage occurs in you cells, organs, skin (hyperpigementation, acne, hirsutism, alopecia) and well that's how one can end up with a seemingly more permanent hormonal/metabolic disorder.

So, when you take all of the above into consideration, if you do see children and babies with acne, and it's not due to some sort of cosmetic product, it's usually because of a bacterial or fungal infection they acquired, or a hormonal disorder they were born with!

****************************************************************************************
uggh it's doing it again (why are my posts merging?) =(

Heres an interesting thing to note. Ever notice how you rarely see people in 3rd world countries and basically most other countries besides America rarely have acne?

Why do you think that is? What is different? Aha, the diet.

I'm on a ship with 20 other people, our selection of food is pretty limited so for the most part, we have the same diet. Myself and one other guy are the only ones who break out though without using topicals.
I would be willing to accept that I could be allergic to some foods or something like that, is there any suppliments that can help diet acne since it's not really possible for me to try changing my diet much?
Also I work with a few Indians and Paki's, I don't recall seeing one with more than a single pimple yet they are eating the same food. I have been around the world and white people in general seem to have acne and other skin problems much more than any other, 2nd being asians I gather....not sure why but that's what it seems like though.
I see OTC herbs with things like Echinacea purpurea...you think that stuff works/helps? Right now I have to use BP to keep my skin in check.

Diet causes Acne, that's as clear as day, but that study is like a bucket of water with several holes in it. If you're going to do a study you might as well do it right in the first place. Did you not know a blind man can only lead its people into disarray?

I think the only real way to treat acne through diet is to eat nothing but fresh organic fruit and vegetables, which can't be healthy in itself, or practical.

I agree. Oh the number of studies that could have been so much better the first time! However, when you are part of a group of people, we hope that the group as a whole can come up with a superior study, but the better it is, the more complicated and costly it is. So my guess is that based on these observations, peers critiques, etc that overtime the study (or a new study) will get better until its a little closer to your standards. BTW, what is your idea of a perfect acne-diet study? ;-)

Drop 30 people with severe acne over in the Kitavan Island in PNG and let them fend for themselves
hopefully they won't get eaten by the polar bear and attacked by the 'others' and hopefully they can build a strong enough raft to sail back home so we can document if they still have acne,

and then set up a Mcdonalds over there for like a year or two and see if the locals get any acne, after the study is done they can burn those golden arches and piss on it.

ooooh...how about this one? put 100 people with severe acne on a 30 day cruise ship and the only food that are served to them for 30 days are natural and organic plant foods.

of course in both studies you would have the before & after blood tests, stool samples, photos, digital videos, document the before and after diets including amounts of nutrients, natural and proccessed carbs, fats, salt, iodine, etc,

that's the sort of study I had in mind, whats your perfect study?

I'm a firm believer in Diet not being the cause of acne, but something that exacerbates it. If Diet does cause acne in Western countries then we are not talking about a simple 'change your diet and have good skin', we're talking about gene pools that are pre-disposed to acne.

Generally speaking, acne is a hormonal problem. I'm sure the people in this thread are aware of the many factors that alter hormonal level, as i'm sure they are aware of the hormonal factors that change during puberty. Do you have a solution as to why these hormonal changes, that trigger acne, do not occour in these 3rd world countries. Obviously i'm not saying this is a given, but i've read claims in an above post that suggest just this.

What I do not understand is people saying, "In 3rd world countries they don't have acne, oh yeah it is cause of their diet!" I see people who come over to America from third world countries (Indians, people from certain spanish countries like Colombia, etc.) They still don't have acne. And they eat shittier than I do. I have watched National Geographic, and they go to poor African nations or India, and I see some people (granted very few), with acne. Not very severe or anything, but they do have acne. I do not know their diet though, or any other metabolic process going in through their body. Acne being a 'diabetes of the skin", I don't know about that. I guess insulin resistance can effect keratinization, which I believe is the main problem with acne that is why the retinoids work so well, especially oral ones because it changes DNA replication.

I spoke to MinnyM0use a lot about these things too SweetJade I miss her a lot too, (I think that is who you were talking about). At the end, before she left, she asked me about vitamin a overdosing for her son, because she was at her wits end about diet and acne (she told me her son did not want to go on accutane due to obvious reasons) and b5 didn't work great for them previously. I do not know either it wasn't working anylonger, or if it was just becoming too hard for her son to follow the diet, or if there were too many set backs. With that being said, you have to understand, that this is very hard to follow, even if it does 100% work for most people. Especially for teenagers, whose PARENTS do not understand. I did delve into the acne diet...I went on it for 3 months. I had no bread (nothing with gluten, yeast), no rice or pasta. I had organic kidney beans once in a while with garlic and cucumbers with extra virgin olive oil. I had sun-dried organic raisins (mixed with almonds to keep insulin spikes in check). If I ate fruit (organic apples and oranges ONLY), I ate brazil nuts with them (with no preservatives etc, I cracked them myself). I seriously followed it to the mark. No soy milk, no almond milk, no cereal. I did this for 3 months, I of course lost a lot of weight, and it did not help much. So I went to the dermatologist and got prescriptions which work...

I am not saying diet does not affect acne. Just like I don't say there is no god. Cause I do not know FOR SURE. It is definitely a plausible maybe for some if not most people getting aggravated through diet. If anyone would like to do the acne>diet to the dot with me, mostly following the GI diet, I would do it again for another 3 months to be sure if it doesn't affect me. But when people saying certain foods affecting acne, that is becoming obsessive and makes people go CRAZY. It made me crazy (I read the Wai diet too ugh and I became really obsessive).

Sorry about the long post.

Ya true, bloodcries. Dont make your diet an obsession, that wont make you happy either.

But whats this thing with mixing the raisins with almonds to keep insulin spikes in check... Can you tell me more about this? How does it work?

Bloodcries,
By all means don't apologize for saying what's on your mind! I in no way am anyone's judge and jury when it comes to finding a solution to one's acne woes. My goal has always been to encourage members to think and research for themselves but also to provide information and support to anyone, regardless of what solution they personally choose. While I would love for people to choose a solution that is as safe and healthy as possible, I understand that for various reasons it may not turn out that way. Yet wether it be through a single treatment or a combination of diet, exercise, detoxes, supplements, topicals, or oral drugs I want members to be responsible, level-headed, and safe by choosing a regimen that provides the most effective treatment with the least amount of product or the lowest effective prescription dose neccessary!

Futhermore, if they believe there is a problem I want them to go to their doctor, more specificially an Endocrinologist, and get the tests neccessary to determine as such. If the results aren't in their favor, I want them to see another one and if need be a third specialist (Endo, Naturopath, Allergist, etc), because frankly some are more knowledgable and/or compassionate than others. Once they do this, and if it is determined that they have a specific hormonal/metabolic disorder, it's usually easier to determine whether a particular diet will be effective for them (if they wish to go this route) or what other treatment program they should go on (sometimes doctors aren't up on the the lastest/ancient prescription drugs).

Keeping all of the above in mind, if one finds that topicals are all they need, they should stick with it. There are so many circumstances at play here when it comes to acne, but my goal is to inform those members that may be long term acne sufferers early on, so that they don't end up as long term sufferers. I know that's a bit hard to do with teenagers, but if they know their family's health and/or acne history sometimes that's enough of a motivator. If they find that topicals or oral drugs aren't working for them, well that's why the Diet/Holistic forum exists. It's easy for someone to say "just do this" or "just take that", but when those things get you only 30%, 50%, or 80% clear it's not good enough, is it? I mean if there was something that got you 90% or 100% clear, wouldn't you rather have that? That's my goal at least and from what I hear of others, it's their goal too.

Furthermore, I by all means am not saying that diet (alone) will work for everyone, let alone get everyone 100% clear. Due to various circumstances, including one's own lifestyle, personal outlook, and willingnes or flexibility this may not be at all a possibility. What I am saying is that for members such as myself it DID work when other drugs, topicals, and supplements did not. Again, this may very well be because myself and most others, were long term sufferers (10, 20, 30 years +) and usually knew we had a hormonal/metabolic disorder for which changing our diet was quite an amazing solution!

Nevertheless, not everyone with a hormonal disorder may find they benefit from diet. Not everyone with cystic acne my find that a diet change will do them wonders. There are still plenty of drugs, supplements, and topicals out there that have done amazing things for other long term sufferers, including 100% clearing them (i.e. Dan's Regimen)! For these people, they shouldn't ever want to change their diet, BUT I hope that these people understand that if they have a hormonal/metabolic problem it itself still needs to be treated. This brings me to possibly what Minnymouse was contemplating for her son. Last I heard, she had him on sprouted grains and he was doing fine. I honestly don't know what happened but I remember her recieving grief from other members for being such a wonderfully concerned & supportive mother! I don't know if her son got tired of it or not, but what I do know is that Accutane, and most importantly Vitamin A Megadosing (consult your physician), isn't always the answer.

Accutane is hailed as the wonder drug, yet the manufacturer doesn't quite know how it works. Over the past few years I've read up on it and found that it truly is quite a fascinating drug, with regards to the many ways that it can work for an acne suffer. It is Anti-androgenic, a 5-Alpha Enzyme inhibitor, Anti-proliferative, Anti-inflammatory, and possibly aids in repairing Intestinal Hyperpermeability (Leaky Gut Syndrome) and those are what I can remember. The thing is, it hasn't been studied to determine if accutane works for people because of all of the above or because most people passed the pubertal stage or simply "grew out of acne". While I've heard it does work for people with hormonal disorders in eliminating their cystic acne, their other acne returns. Unfortunately with some people with hormonal disorders, ALL of their acne returns within 3 - 6 months or 3 - 6 years after the initial dose of accutane. There's debate as to why this may be, but these people go on to have a 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th dose of accutane before they contemplate a "maintenance dose" or move on and try something else. Whatever their decision here, I hope that members understand that if accutane does not work for them, to please keep in mind that it may have something to do with possibly having a hormonal/metabolic disorder that needs tending to.

In regards to yours and Cubsfan theory, when we compare ourselves to those in 3rd world countries, we must take into account that genetics is also at play. While it would be great to think of dropping us off in some remote island to freely consume fruits, vegetables, and nuts some of us already have activated the genes or have genetic predispositions to where consuming certain foods, no matter where we live, could prove to be problematic and thus, actually give us acne! Just as people from other countries that enter the United States don't initially have health problems, but actually bear successive generations that increasingly do have health problems, the same would have to occur on this remote island. Theoretically, we would essentially have to give birth to several generations built upon "healthy" and pollution free eating in order to hopefully rewire our genetic map so that acne would no longer exist (on this island). Well, that's one possibility anyway...

Now, regarding your personal situation, while I hesistate to do this, I wouldn't be clear following your particular diet either. I eat oranges very rarely since changing my diet 3.5 years ago, so I honestly don't know what they do to my skin, but it is a variable that must be considered. I can't consume most nuts and while Brazil Nuts aren't considered a nut, but rather a seed, I eliminated this one as well. Along with that, I absolutely can't consume almonds (considered a fruit) and with that fruits that are more closely related to almonds (cherries, plums, apricots, peaches, & nectarines) because there can be and were cross reactions. Furthermore, while I can eat most fruits, including naturally dried fruits, I can't drink fruit juice, let alone 100% fruit juice (due to the missing fiber?). See, changing one's diet is not about simply eating "healthy", going Organic, going "Low Carb" or Vegan, as I actually ended up eating a diet that's still far from all organic, has plenty of animal products and is incidentally Moderate in carbohydrates. No, it's about choosing the right foods for you as an INDIVIDUAL....unfortunately this is where we lose most people.

Instead of taking note that these diets worked for us individually some members compile a huge list of unfavorable foods and then begin to follow this so-called diet or complain that it is too restrictive. Of course it is! You will never see me hand someone such a list of foods and tell them not to eat from that list. There's a right and wrong way to do the "right" thing (whatever that may be), and with regards to changing one's diet...that is definately the wrong way! As I've mentioned with others, the best diet to follow is the one that works with your hormonal/metabolic disorder. If you don't have one, then pick a popular diet on the board based on a book or ONE person's experience and go from there. In time you can add in foods or take out foods if need be (there are some shortcuts to this) and utilizing a food journal may help one see a pattern. Of course, there are sometimes food allergy and food intolerance tests that can be performed, but the most accurate method is still an Elimination & Provocation type diet. In the end, if this proves not to be successful for you, and drugs and topicals are not either, there's always various detoxification programs for you to try.

They say that topicals and certain drugs are methods of symptom suppression. Other drugs, supplements, or diet can be methods of symptom prevention. Yet detoxification, liver flushing, colon cleansing, and healing your Intestinal Hyperpermeability (Leaky Gut) is supposed to be THE answer, or cure rather, for the elimination of acne! So much so does this work that people that previously had allergies, intolerances, sensitivities to foods or chemicals have found that they, including various members of this board, are no longer as sensitive and can eat certain foods are ALL foods again! So, if your goal is to be clear and still live the life you want free of restrictions, the detox, cleansing, & healing route appears to be the way to go. Again there are right and wrong ways to do this so please speak with one of our resident "experts" on the board about this, and because it's all about cleansings, you will have to perform periodic cleanses to maintain such results.

When it comes to answering questions for those on the board that are 12, 15 or 18 it's not always easy to know what advice to give. I know the pain I went through and if I was 12 again, I know what I would do. Yet, not all parents are that supportive and understanding and at that age a 12 year NEEDS to be working with a nutritionist if changing his or her diet is the route to go. If and when I experience what others have regarding the detox regimens, while I will speak more about it, again, how do you expect a child or teenager to explain this to their parents? Some of these protocols are quite invasive, seem rather off the wall, are based primarily on anecdotal evidence, and can be costly, but they have worked for others and as such, they still deserve to be mentioned. It is so unfortunate that the things that actually work on this forum, aren't always backed by a clincally controlled double blinded scientific study, but even when there are some (like what's in this thread), it's still not enough to motivate someone into doing the right thing for themselves or their child, whether it be diet, detox, or taking them to see a specialist (for a prescription)!

It is unfortunate that a percentage of members don't understand or take it to the extremes. I've gone through what others have gone through, with regards to acne affecting ALL aspects of my life, but I guess because I had good friends and a family that would let me pursue doctors until I found an answer, I just don't have the obsessive or guilt-ridden nature as do some members. Even in my pursuits, I only ever saw 3 endocrinologists total and they were years apart. Interestingly, when I got the diagnosis, I wasn't even looking for one, lol I honestly found I had more success when I didn't try so hard or did things the "right way". Starving yourself, jumping into things without proper research and/or supervision, feeling negative, or worrying are definately not the answers. Yes, of course there is some "work" involved here, but there are substitutes for foods, new foods to try, new ways to cook foods, ways to handle social outings, snacks etc that it was never an issue for me, it all became second nature, and ultimately it allowed me to feel healthier and more "normal". As such, I consider what I've found to work for me a HUGE blessing in so many ways! I guess that's why I can continue to do so and be extremely happy about it and never depressed about my so-called can'ts because I have many other things that I can NOW do that I couldn't before!


Best of luck on trying things over and, of course, I'm here for support as well as others.

Diet does affect acne , but it is just so hard to stick to a certain diet ,because most of us in western country , are used to foods that we have been eating past 20 yrs or so , it is just so hard to change it , i tried many times to stick to veggies but i just cannot , i starve all the time , even i eat lots of veggies but i just cant stop eating meat , and other tasty foods.

On other hand , sometimes i see my friends they eat junk food all the time , like i have friends who eat nothing then burger king , Mc Donalds , Pizza Pizza and all sort of Junk Food but she doesnt have a single pimple on her face , her face is so clear , i know many people who eat crap but still doesnt have a single pimple ..But still i believe that DIET DOES AFFECT ACNE ,

THOSE WHO THINK THAT IT DOESNT AFFECT , THEY SHOULD STOP TAKING ORAL MEDICAMENTS , WHY BOTHER TAKING MEDICMENTS IF YOU THINK DIET DOESNT AFFECT ANCE , ITS SAME THINK INSTEAD OF TAKING SUPPLEMENTS WHY NOT TAKE THEM FROM NATURAL FRUITS... SO FOR ALL WHO THINK DIES HAS NOTHIGN TO DO WITH ACNE , THEY SHOULD STOP TAKING VITAMENS , MINERALS , STOP DRINKING WATER THAT MUCH.. BECAUSE ALL THESE CONCERN DIET..

And again if u see someone who doesnt have acne even he/she eats junk food all the time , then consider them LUCKY , some people just dont get ACNE from JUNK , but for some of US food can be miracle and food can be a SIN ,,,, so just keep that in mind , as a acne treatment works for another person it doesnt mean it will work for you , the same goes for DIET , if one person doesnt get acne even he eats junk crap food all the time it doesnt mean if u start eating u wont get acne either ,... we all have different body ...

What i am interested to know is ,
1.How many people here has dandruff?
2.How many people hhave bad digestive system?

these 2 things , seem to be the main cause for many acne sufferers ,,,